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Ran Morrissett

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Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« on: June 24, 2003, 10:56:43 AM »
Jeff Silverman has done much to shape this web site for he is the man who wrote the six page article on GolfClubAtlas.com that appeared in Sports Illustrated almost one year ago. Though the subtle effects the article had on the site are hard to measure, the not so subtle effects are easy to point to as the site immediately went from averaging 300,000 page views per month to over 500,000 pvs/mo. Jeff was with our group in California for three days writing the article and to a person, we all enjoyed his company.

His recently published book entitled Bernard Darwin on Golf is a compilation of essays, the vast majority of which I have never seen before. The chapter Architectooralooral is a particular joy for those interested in architecture and ends with these prescient words: "Whether or not the ball can ever be brought back to its proper limits is another story, but unless it can, the architects will be forever fighting an uphill battle." Darwin wrote these words in 1934  :P >:(

Of the many new favorite essays, one of the most amusing has to be Darwin observing an architect madly dashing about Aberdovey at the board's request in an effort to "set their house in order." Tommy N. was spot on in his thread from 45 days ago singing the praises of both Jeff's forward to Darwin's essays as well as the selection of essays.

Feel free to ask Jeff questions, be it on Darwin or life as a writer or his thoughts on GCA.com or HIS golf biases or whatever. Jeff is a true friend to this site and not unlike Darwin, his eye for life's humor shines through in all his works.

Cheers,

T_MacWood

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2003, 12:40:11 PM »
A very good interview--one of the most interesting to date. Jeff has an excellent insite on Darwin and his writing. He is my favorite author (Darwin that is, sorry JS) and Jeff has put together a wonderful collection of his essays and articles.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2003, 01:04:52 PM »
Enjoyed the interview:

I have a question for Jeff.  In the 1930s, Golf Illustrated UK published dozens of course reviews under the psuedo "Brer Rabbit".  I've linked to one of these below:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2868;start=msg55782#msg55782

Do you think this is Darwin writing?  I remember reading him use the phrase "Brer Rabbit" in an article, which made me wonder.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2003, 12:23:02 AM »
Paul

IMO, if "Brer' Rabbit" was Darwin, he was having an extremely bad hair day when he "wrote" the Sunningdale article.  Nothing like his style.  Nothing like his quality.

George Pazin

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2003, 09:08:29 AM »
Another great interview.

Thanks for compiling the book, Jeff - it's been very enjoyable reading. I especially like the Hogan at Carnoustie exerpts.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2003, 01:19:15 PM »
First of all, Ran, if I knew you were going to be so nice to me in your post leading off this thread I might not have mentioned your hook in the interview, but it will still take a lot more cash, stocks and real estate than you've ever offered me to keep that one to myself.

Thanks also to the kind posts about "Bernard Darwin on Golf." Corny as it may seem, I  meant what I said in the interview about it being something I can finally give back to the game that takes up so much of my time and, more importantly, affection. I nearly did have to drown my publisher to get him to agree to the book in the first place. He was convinced that there's  no market for golf essays three quarters of a century old.  I trust continued sales, good reviews, and word of mouth will disabuse him of that canard.

Now for the question on the table. Did Darwin write the Sunningdale review? My gut tells me no. Here's why. Beyond the writing itself,  which seems  forced enough to sound like Darwin only after rigor mortis had set in, the man  wasn't shy about taking credit for his opinions. Also, by 1934, his name was a draw and he had a good-sized following. Hence, I suspect Golf Illustrated would have preferred a byline, not a pseudonym. Then there's the reference to the writer's 25 years of friendship with the course. The date on the piece is 1934. That would date his relationship with Sunningdale back to 1909, some eight years -- if I read the record correctly in my copy of Whitten and Cornish -- after the course opened.

 Now, while I have no way  to prove any of this, I can guarantee that Darwin was playng the course well before that 25 year mark mentioned. In "The World That Fred Made," he bemoaned the fact yjsy Sunningdale didn't exist when he was playing in college. He also had  a pattern of playing new courses around London, which he moved to in 1897, as soon as they opened. He was a regular at Woking by 1897, he tells us in "Green Memories," and regularly played in the Woking-Sunningdale competitions. He also wrote about Sunningdale with great familiarity in "Golf Course of the British Isles" in 1910. All of which adds up to my stab in the dark that Darwin was not Brer Rabbit.

Of course, had the piece been signed Brer Fox, I'd naturally have to rethink all of this.

js
 

T_MacWood

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2003, 01:24:52 PM »
What amazes me about Darwin are the numbers. A couple weekly columns at least--I'm not sure often he wrote for The Times, perhaps more often than once a week. He also contributed to a handful of monthly magazines and a career that lasted 50+ years. Is he the most prolific writer in history...at least in sport? How did he do it?

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2003, 07:00:52 PM »
Tom MacWood --

  The numbers are staggering, as is the longevity. Darwin wrote weekly columns for The Times  and Country Life, only once missing a deadline in some 50 years, for Country Life, when the ship he was crossing the Atlantic on ran into weather and couldn't wire off his copy in time. Beyond that, he also wrote regularly for Golf Illustrated and The American Golfer. Between the '20s and the '50s he wrote about a dozen long golf essays for The Atlantic Monthly,  five of which I've included in "Bernard Darwin on Golf."
 
   Still, that's only the half of it. He wrote alot on cricket and soccer and some rugby. And his non-sporting essays are at least as memorable as his golf pieces (check out his collection "Every Idle Dream" for a taste). Plus, of course, he was a recognized Dickens scholar with a few Dickens books under his belt, wrote a book about England's greatest cricket player and another on the British rails during World War II. Plus his own anthologies which he assembled every few years. Plus anthologies of others' writings on sports ("The Game's Afoot") and literature ("At Odd Moments.") Plus essays for other golf collections. Plus the Oxford Book of Quotations. Plus introductions to books like the Oxford Dickens edition of "David Copperfield" (his favorite) and even one on British cooking, even if the existence of such a thing back in the '40s was debatable.

It's amazing he had any time for golf, but he always seemed to at a time when getting to a golf course from London wasn't exactly a snap. Interesting how much we all tend to miss by just hopping into the car and driving to a golf course. For Darwin, so many of his golfing excursions werealso  train adventures, and how wonderfully and affectionately he incorporated the travel -- and the expectations of travel --  into the pieces themselves.

What am I now, some 9 million posts behind Tom Paul?

js

Steve Lang

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2003, 07:39:20 PM »
 ;) jeff,

only 6867 some behind TEP

So, was Darwing also a man of letters?  Having done a little train riding in the UK myself (how about Broadway to York one morning to play Ganton?)  I assume there was plenty of time during his travels for a focused mind to outline and fill in his observations, applying his word-crafting.  With whom did he correspond or was his journalism his main outlet?

Regards
« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 07:40:27 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

ChipOat

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2003, 09:13:18 PM »
Jeff:

Look forward to buying and reading your book regardless of your answer to the following 2 questions:

First, how much of your book contains essays/articles that I won't have already read in the 2 fine Darwin anthologies published 15+ years ago by Rob MacDonald's "Classics of Golf" series?  One of those was titled "Golf Between the Wars" - the name of the other escapes me at the moment.

Second, are you the one who chose Tommy for the cover?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 09:16:45 PM by chipoat »

TEPaul

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2003, 10:18:50 PM »
Jeff:

Terrific stuff! Thanks for the interview and I'm so much looking forward to reading your book. It's great to see these wonderful old golf writers getting a repeat performance. Give us another hundred years or so of constant study and we'll manage to translate Max Behr so the essence of golf and its architecture will be understandable to all and the eyes of the world's golfers will finally be opened and it will be a NEW WORLD! Immaculateness and man-made formulaics will be on the decline and "Wild Golf" will return and rise to new heights!!

Paul_Turner

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2003, 10:50:55 AM »
Rich

I think I agree, it was just a curious phrase used by Darwin that made me wonder.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2003, 10:59:40 AM »
Chipoat:

First, thank you, in advance, for buying the book.

Second, since all questions about Tommy are complex by definition, I'll get to the first one first.

There's not much overlap at all. The only piece I used from "Golf Between Two Wars" was Darwin's long one on Bobby Jones. "Wars," by the way, was a Classics of Golf reprint. The original was published in England in 1944 by Chatto and Windus. The other book you're talking about, "The Darwin Sketchbook," was a MacDonald original, compiled for the series. I have some overlaps with him -- profiles of Sarazen, Hogan, Jones and Ouimet -- and a few others.

But MacDonald, at least to my thinking, made some odd editing choices and truncations. "Sketchbook," for example, is where I first read "Architectooralooral," or at least I thought I'd read it. I didn't like it much when I did; it seemed disjointed for Darwin. I  didn't think much of it...until I found the the  original, unbastardized version. "Sketchbook" actually takes two essays written years apart -- "Architectooralooral" and "The Heart of a Rabbit" -- cuts the heart out of both, jams what's left together, and calls the result "Architectooralooral Considerations." The essays work much better as their own unconnected integrities. (The thread that connects them is architecture, but two into one doesn't tie together very well here.) I used them both, and I encourage anyone who's only read "Sketchbook's" connection of these to read them -- each -- anew.

Similarly, we both use Darwin's wonderful "On Being a Darwin" from "Green Memories." "Sketchbook" runs a few graphs. "Darwin on Golf" runs most of the chapter, because it tells us so much about who the man is. I wanted readers not as familiar with Darwin as all of you are to know him from the start, which is why it's the first piece in the book. I also wanted to make sure to include the anecdote about Darwin's refusing to make money off of his name in America while the Scopes-Monkey Trial was going on. I thought that opened a window into Bernardo's character wide enough for a gale of fresh air to blow through.

Finally, "Darwin on Golf" has an overall wider selection. To my thinking, "Sketchbook's" greatest strength is in resurrecting the old golfing profiles and match reporting. Darwin was certainly a stellar reporter, but he was a much better essayist. What I wanted to stress in my collection was Darwin's more timeless takes on the nature of the game and the nature of the golfer.

As for Tommy (aka Tony) and the immortal cover shot (I think I recall seeing copies hanging in both the Museum of Modern Art and the National Portrait Gallery), the photo needed no lobbying from me or anyone to grace the cover. There was, I believe, some talk about holding it out for the swimsuit cover, but the very quality of the picture and its magical marriage of film to subject matter forced the SI editors to rush it into print before, say, GQ, Vogue, or even Cosmo could get its hands on it.

Talking about Tommy -- Hey, Tommy, if you're out there, where's my pencil?

js

BCrosby

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2003, 11:31:39 AM »
Jeff -

I was interested to note that The Classics of Golf edited certain of Darwin's pieces. I have two volumes they compiled. They are the only books I have by Darwin and, I must confess, I have never warmed to him. Too many of the pieces TCofG collected were match reports (which don't age well) and the pieces on architecture, the ones I was most eager to read, I now learn were chopped up.

I look forward to buying your book and getting another take on Darwin's golf writing.

Bob
 


A_Clay_Man

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2003, 04:17:18 PM »
Great and educationanal!

thanx Ran and Jeff.

I just can't get over the Jackson Park thang. It blows my mind to read about it and that it was the first public, west of the alleghenies. I remember I  would continue to go there even after I hadn't lived there for almost 20 years. With Waveland and Jackson pk. Chicago has some better than average, old school, public golf.


Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2003, 06:34:39 PM »
Boy, I can hardly keep up with this stuff, so let me catch up here, and since I don't know everyone's first name, excuse me for directing stuff to screen names.


P_Turner

One more thing on Brer Rabbit. Just as I'm convinced John Milton was the last man standing on the planet whose brain was filled with all the knowledge known at the time, I'm equally certain that Bernardo may have been the last man standing to have read all that was worth reading in his time. He sprinkled literary allusions all over the place the way I sprinkle my drives, irons, wedges and putts (even the gimmes); for him to have dropped Brer Rabbit into something would have been no differerent, really, than his mentioning Mr. Micawber or any of the Pickwick gang. It's just something he did. Also, since he didn't see himself by his own definition as a golfing rabbit -- see his essay "The Heart of a Rabbit," conveniently nestled for your reading pleasure on page 319 of "Bernard Darwin on Golf" which you're all slowly but surely helping move into Harry Potter sales territory -- I don't think he'd hide under that pseudonym. As I said earlier, Brer Fox would have been  more his style, though, given a fox's slyness, maybe that hole isn't worth going down.


Steve --

Great question, and the answer is I don't really know. He doesn't talk about letter-writing in his memoirs or essays, but the Darwins were a letter-writing clan. In fact, I think it was in the teens that his aunt -- I think it was an aunt  -- published a collection of family letters. That said, I can't imagine Darwin *not* being a prolific letter writer. He loved receiving mail at the Times and Country Life, and regularly began columns as responses to letters. He was also too polite not to answer his mail with something in return. Also, mail is how folks communicated back then, and with overseas friends like CB Mac, Francis Ouimet, and Grantland Rice, among others, spirited correspondence seems natural. Plus, I think the British postal system delivered the mail about 13,000 times a day back then, so notes sent in the morning were answered by the afternoon. Mail was a way of life. Like e-mail. Only without the spam.


BCrosby --

I think you'll find a little more architectural stuff in "Bernard Darwin on Golf," and Darwin does read better unadulterated. That said, I don't want anyone thinking that I've got anything but utter admiration for "The Classics of Golf" series. My own library would be much poorer without the volumes from the series I do have, and "Sketchbook" was one of the first Darwins I laid mitts on.  It was a fine introduction that left me wanting more, and I set out to fill my book with more of the more that I wanted and less of the reports on match play and Darwin's old golfing heroes that I didn't.  Anthologies are all about choices. I chose pieces on Hogan, Jones, Sarazen and Ouimet rather than Braid, Young Tom, Ball and Tait because those were the pieces I preferred reading.  Since you know you won't be satisfying everyone in these things, the least you can do is satisfy yourself.


A_Clay_Man --

The course is a trip, isn't it? Unfortunately, SI cut out my favorite fact. Back in the '20s, when Jackson Park was a 27-hole layout, it was the O'Hare of loops, the busiest course in the world with -- don't hold me to the exact number -- some 256,000 rounds a year. That's right.  256K. What a way to save on maintenance costs. Mowing? Sheep? No grass is growing under all those footsteps, anyway.




Steve Lang

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2003, 10:05:01 PM »
 ;D

Agman,

Your chem inspired handle has probably passed many by, but I imagine the Darwin book will be worth it's weight in gold to those who "get it"... Thanks, I'm impressed and will definitely take in your other efforts as well.

Stay connected.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2003, 10:05:17 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2003, 12:44:48 PM »
Steve Lang --

The handle was indeed science ispired, but not chem. It was laid on me a very long time ago by my high school physics teacher, a real wild man, and the best teacher I  had until college. If my book winds up worth its weight in gold, I worry I'll have to change it to Auman, and that would be a hassle, so I'll be thrilled if it winds up just worth its weight in silver.

js

A_Clay_Man

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2003, 02:54:23 PM »
AGman- We don't stress accuracy too much here, do we? 259,843 rounds in 1925 at Jackson Park.

Looking at the picture in Tom Govedarica's book what's amazing is that that is the same starter's box and clubhouse that is there today(or when I was there last). I lived in the 60's three houses from the 7th tee (Par 3). We use to ice skate in the winter on a natural low spot on 14(?) the par five as it heads to the west. It would create our own private natural rink.

I remember caddying for a rather large Jamacian man. The tot was $.50. He must've felt pretty good having me tote his clubs, in those days. Many times people would ask me if I wanted to hit one, and I would, and as they say the rest is history.

 After I moved away and would come back with buddies, if there were kids hanging around to caddie, we'd take'm. Mostly so they would stop the other kids from stealing your ball on the holes that came close to Stoney island Blvd. #4 and #5.

The Columbian Expo in 1893 was clearly the catalyst that allowed C.B. to create the CGC.

Steve Lang

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2003, 09:59:41 PM »
Ag = Silver

Au = gold

thats chemistry
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David Kelly

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Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2003, 10:21:09 PM »
Jeff,
You need to set your sights higher.  With silver at approx. $4.50 a troy ounce a two pound book would only bring in $108.00.  ;)
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2003, 10:51:18 PM »
David --

And that's still a lot better than a percentage of the cover price...

js

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2003, 02:24:59 PM »
Chip Oat, I would have much prefered them do the cover with you.

I haven't gotten to read the article yet, as I have not even had the much interent time since I got back! I got in Tuesday night; had to go back t the airport and pick-up my cousin on Wednesday morning, had the first half of a good ol' fashion Italian family reunion on Thursday, Played golf at Rustic Canyon yesterday, and now getting ready for the second half today.

I need a vacation for the return from my vacation!

BTW, I have the pencil; and the score card; and I'm waiting for the shirt!

Jeff, if you will, could you please tell everyone the story about Jenna Hearst and Orson Welles from your days at the old LA Herald Examiner. It remains one of my favorites! For you Movie fans out there, that know of the story of Citizen Kane; the fight to get it made and released as well as the lives of William Randolph Hearst and Orson Welles, you will enjoy it. The late O.W. still remainsto me one of the heroes in my life. A man with a mission that could describe it in film better then most; and payed the price for doing so.


Yancey_Beamer

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2003, 01:57:47 PM »
Jeff,
Your book is my #1 book at the present time to give to worthy golfers.The only other book to hold this lofty status is Doak's Confidential Guide.The brilliance of this book is to introduce Darwin in a single book.Personally, I bought a copy of The World That Fred Made at the Quatro in St. Andrews and then added another book and another and finally understood that with his prolific writing this could take quite some time!
Well done.
Yancey
PS-Mere mortals will never catch Tom Paul.Tonight he will post 248 times.Give up and rest.

Agman

Re:Jeff Silverman's Feature Interview is posted
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2003, 07:54:38 PM »
Thanks, Yancey. I hope you find several thousand worthy golfers in your travels. And while you certainly don't have to be a brain surgeon to appreciate the way Darwin operated as a writer... but I guess that path's long been exhausted on you.

Tommy--

I'll post the Orson Welles tale when I've got a bit more time tomorrow.

Meanwhile, there's a question I'd like to put out to everyone. In the interview that, to paraphrase Yogi, has made this thread necessary, Ran asked about Darwin's favorite courses in the US. While Darwin praised several American courses, the one he clearly snubbed was Garden City. (See question 11 of the interview for some quotes.) For those of you who know Garden City, which I don't, do you agree? Do you disagree? And knowing Darwin and knowing Garden City, can anyone shed  light on why the course made such an unfavorable impression on him that he would dismiss it the way he did?

Thanks in advance...

js