[Garland Bayley]

Just remember Sean, if you find yourself in a foursome where you are the slowest player, you are playing too slow.

Arnold Palmer

[Don_Mahaffey]

Regular golf...hey, I'm on a sprinkler head...cart path...whatever...I'm taking a drop.
Pac-12 Championship...I need a drop, can you come over and confirm

Unplayable lie, or hazard drop, add more time.

Its one thing to play for yourself, when you play for the team, it takes a little longer because your 6 might just be better then taking a 7.

[Sean Leary]

Just remember Sean, if you find yourself in a foursome where you are the slowest player, you are playing too slow.

Arnold Palmer

And just because you pick up after 9 shots doesn't mean you are a fast player....

[Sean Leary]

Has anyone here played tournament golf?

Umm, yes. And plenty of it. I understand that calligraphy golf is different than the casual club game. I also understand that a $10 a point scotch game is different than anything these kids play.  But neither is an excuse for 4:30 threesomes among good players.  The game simply doesn't take that long unless you MAKE it take that long.  

To my way of thinking, if you need 4:30 to shoot par, you're really not a scratch player, the same way that a 6th grader than needs 10 minutes to do his times tables is not an A student in math, even if he gets them all correct.

Do they need it to shoot par?If they are going off both nines, what is the advantage for the whole 3some to play super-fast? To be up someone's ass in front of them? And even if they do, what if they have to wait at the turn?

The U of Washington team plays out of my course, so I see them all the time, play in front of and behind them all the time, and they keep up with no issues. I know its hard for some people to believe but some people's goals while playing golf isn't just to finish as fast as they can.

Shiv, do you take more time when playing tournaments? If so, how much?

[Sean_A]

Has anyone here played tournament golf? You guys are nuts;)

When it matters AND you have to putt out your 2-3 footers and not stand in someones line, it adds time. Never mind these were the teams at the end that the tournament depends on. Tournament golf is a different deal than hacking it around like we do. They take the full time to look for balls that might be lost because it MATTERS. They aren't raking their 3 footers for double like we do.

Pace of play in tournaments can't be compared to casual golf rounds.

Sean

Sure, tournie golf is a more pressing and important, but there is no doubt the game at the top and bottom, is slowing down.  The question one has to ask is this good for the game?  At the top level, it shouldn't make any difference because the only folks being held up are freeloaders and its about themselves sorting it out.  At the bottom level, it is a very real problem.  One can say that the top shouldn't influence the bottom and maybe it doesn't, but it is generally believed that what the best do, wear, swing and hit influences the rest of the pack.  This belief is what affords many of the best golfers the cream of their living.  I think eventually slow play will start to effect tv ratings (if it hasn't already) and hit the pockets of the best.  Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later because as a tv sport golf is virtually unwatchable for many interested observers and totally unwatchable for anybody with a passing interest.  Talk about growing the game?  One of the best things to do this is to simply play faster.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later because as a tv sport golf is virtually unwatchable for many interested observers and totally unwatchable for anybody with a passing interest.  Talk about growing the game?  One of the best things to do this is to simply play faster.

Ciao

Sean,

Slow golf is like fighting in hockey. If they wanted to eliminate it, they could.

Four corners offense was the most boring thing ever in college basketball. 45 second shot clock comes in and it is gone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_offense

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Slow play is not good for the game. I just don't think that 4 hrs for a top flight tournament round is that slow for a 3 some.

[Garland Bayley]

Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later because as a tv sport golf is virtually unwatchable for many interested observers and totally unwatchable for anybody with a passing interest.  Talk about growing the game?  One of the best things to do this is to simply play faster.

Ciao

Sean,

Slow golf is like fighting in hockey. If they wanted to eliminate it, they could.

Four corners offense was the most boring thing ever in college basketball. 45 second shot clock comes in and it is gone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_offense

You know what is boring? It's shot clocks and three point shots. It's taken the skill out of the game. Saying four corners offense is boring is like saying the most popular team sport in the world is boring. The proper rule put in place for four corners offense was the one that required the defenders to actively defend.

You also want to know what's boring in basketball? It's mental midgets like Al McGuire that cannot stop running on with the mouth about intentionally fouling to get back in the game. Sending people to the free throw line over and over again is boring and a statistical loser.

[Mark Johnson]

Not defending slow play but.....
go out to your Club Championship's STROKE play qualifier
then get back to us.

4:15 in foursomes despite 20 mph winds and greens at 13.

[jeffwarne]

Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later because as a tv sport golf is virtually unwatchable for many interested observers and totally unwatchable for anybody with a passing interest.  Talk about growing the game?  One of the best things to do this is to simply play faster.

Ciao

Sean,

Slow golf is like fighting in hockey. If they wanted to eliminate it, they could.

Four corners offense was the most boring thing ever in college basketball. 45 second shot clock comes in and it is gone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_offense

You know what is boring? It's shot clocks and three point shots. It's taken the skill out of the game. Saying four corners offense is boring is like saying the most popular team sport in the world is boring. The proper rule put in place for four corners offense was the one that required the defenders to actively defend.

You also want to know what's boring in basketball? It's mental midgets like Al McGuire that cannot stop running on with the mouth about intentionally fouling to get back in the game. Sending people to the free throw line over and over again is boring and a statistical loser.

+1
Why someone should get 3 points for a shot he would take anyway is mind boggling.

Fouling at the end of the game has made basketball unwatchable.
Simple-every foul in the last 2 minutes not in the paint is a technical.

[Rick Shefchik]

The way the players handled it was the first person putting out would proceed to the next tee and only hit after the group had holed out. This is within the rules.

This is a great idea. I've done this a few times when my group is lagging behind the group ahead of us. One of the biggest causes of slow play in casual golf is the cluster mentality: We all have to move together to the tee, to the next shot, etc. Kudos to the college golfers for breaking out of the herd.

[Mike Benham]

One of the greatest myths, GCA'ers play fast ...

[Sam Morrow]

One of the greatest myths, GCA'ers play fast ...

You've never seen me, Cory Lewis, and Jason Topp set the pace for a course.

[Jason Topp]

One of the greatest myths, GCA'ers play fast ...

You've never seen me, Cory Lewis, and Jason Topp set the pace for a course.

I am the slowest in that group by far.  Nonetheless, Mike is right. 

[Richard Choi]

I second Mike. I would be pretty happy with 4 1/2 hour rounds at GCA events.

[Garland Bayley]

I second Mike. I would be pretty happy with 4 1/2 hour rounds at GCA events.

You know the rounds would go faster if I didn't have to go traipsing all over looking for your wild drives and in general saving your rear.

[Jason Thurman]

This thread reminds me of when I used to claim my '84 Ford Bronco II (first car!) was pretty fast for a 20 year old 3 speed with leaky oil gaskets. It was true, but it still couldn't go more than 60 mph on an incline.

It's true enough that 4:35 is "fast" in tournament play. It's also fair to say that 4:35 is ungodly slow. It's also fair to say that they couldn't really have gone any faster because teeing off both nines makes the fastest possible time about 4:15.

The real takeaway is that tournament golf is slow for more reasons than just the players. It's also slow because of slow expectations and an infrastructure and schedule that mandates slowness and logistical implications of trying to send a full field around a course within a fairly small window. I'm not sure this would have much affect on the average Saturday recreational round, except for the fact that so many courses copy the expectations and infrastructure of tournaments. It drives me nuts when I play a 6500 muni that states expected pace of play on their scorecard of 4 1/2 hours. They can't possibly come up with a number like that from anything other than tournament play, and it sets the expectation among players that 4 1/2 hours is reasonable.

The problem isn't that tournament golf is slow. It's that recreational golf expectations aren't clearly made different, so courses set slow expectations and weekend players decide that matching those expectations is adequate.

[Dan King]

There are lots of things you can say about a 4:35 round, but fast should never be one of them. Perhaps bearable might be a better term.

Tournament golfers will play at the slowest pace they are allowed to play. With governing bodies going out of their way to ensure the players are not stressed, tournament golf has constantly gotten slower.  Why not speed 'em up? Wouldn't it be fun to watch tournament golfers forced to play at a 3 hour pace? Yes, there is a lot to consider in tournament golf, but why give them all the time in the world for their considerations? Force them to make quicker decisions -- testing their quick decision making.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

[Tom_Doak]

There are lots of things you can say about a 4:35 round, but fast should never be one of them. Perhaps bearable might be a better term.

Tournament golfers will play at the slowest pace they are allowed to play. With governing bodies going out of their way to ensure the players are not stressed, tournament golf has constantly gotten slower.  Why not speed 'em up? Wouldn't it be fun to watch tournament golfers forced to play at a 3 hour pace? Yes, there is a lot to consider in tournament golf, but why give them all the time in the world for their considerations? Force them to make quicker decisions -- testing their quick decision making.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

It seems like this is one of those things that would have to be done from the bottom up.  It would be damn near impossible to force the change on the Tour first, because the players say what goes on the PGA Tour, and all of them have had their agonizing pre-shot routines ingrained on them as central to their success.  So, you've got to start with the juniors and with high school and college, until it becomes second nature to them, and then in a few years maybe you'd have a chance to make the switch on Tour.

Is anyone aware of anyone at the junior or high school level who has done something concrete to establish a swift pace of play?

[Kyle Harris]

There are lots of things you can say about a 4:35 round, but fast should never be one of them. Perhaps bearable might be a better term.

Tournament golfers will play at the slowest pace they are allowed to play. With governing bodies going out of their way to ensure the players are not stressed, tournament golf has constantly gotten slower.  Why not speed 'em up? Wouldn't it be fun to watch tournament golfers forced to play at a 3 hour pace? Yes, there is a lot to consider in tournament golf, but why give them all the time in the world for their considerations? Force them to make quicker decisions -- testing their quick decision making.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

It seems like this is one of those things that would have to be done from the bottom up.  It would be damn near impossible to force the change on the Tour first, because the players say what goes on the PGA Tour, and all of them have had their agonizing pre-shot routines ingrained on them as central to their success.  So, you've got to start with the juniors and with high school and college, until it becomes second nature to them, and then in a few years maybe you'd have a chance to make the switch on Tour.

Is anyone aware of anyone at the junior or high school level who has done something concrete to establish a swift pace of play?

My HS Golf Coach made us eliminate practice swings during our practice rounds. This generally carried over into matches.

[Dan King]

Tom_Doak writes:
It seems like this is one of those things that would have to be done from the bottom up.

I find it shocking people still watch golf. I tried to watch the Masters this year but found it totally unbearable. I'm guessing most people watch having recorded it so they can skip through all the BS. As the game continues to get slower, hopefully the ratings will drop. At some future date the Tours will figure out that they need to put something interesting on television to attract viewers.

Cheers,
Dan King

I go to sleep when I watch golf on television.
 --George Archer

[Tom_Doak]

Tom_Doak writes:
It seems like this is one of those things that would have to be done from the bottom up.

I find it shocking people still watch golf. I tried to watch the Masters this year but found it totally unbearable. I'm guessing most people watch having recorded it so they can skip through all the BS. As the game continues to get slower, hopefully the ratings will drop. At some future date the Tours will figure out that they need to put something interesting on television to attract viewers.

Cheers,
Dan King

I go to sleep when I watch golf on television.
 --George Archer

Dan:

Sadly, I think the Tour [and the sponsors] tend to look at it the same way real estate developers looked at longer and longer courses -- more golf frontage to sell, or in the Tour's case, more time to cut away from golf without missing anything.

[Sean_A]

Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later because as a tv sport golf is virtually unwatchable for many interested observers and totally unwatchable for anybody with a passing interest.  Talk about growing the game?  One of the best things to do this is to simply play faster.

Ciao

Sean,

Slow golf is like fighting in hockey. If they wanted to eliminate it, they could.

Four corners offense was the most boring thing ever in college basketball. 45 second shot clock comes in and it is gone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_offense

Yes, most fights in hockey are a stupid waste of time and if I were the rule maker guys involved would be tossed with the instigator and any third or more men involved given 5 games on the spot.  I think eventually hockey will become more like rugby in regards fighting - if the NHL's pledge on eliminating head shots is sincere.

As for basketball, I have no time for it - its all boring as it is far too easy to score.  Also, as Jeff writes, the fouling at the end of the game completely negates why fouls exists.  

3 guys at the top level should be able to get round in 3.5 hours, but as I say, it doesn't matter much.  I am not sure golf will be any more watchable at 3.5 hours compared to 5 hours.  Lets face it, there isn't much entertainment value in golf.

Yes, GCA.com events are shockingly slow.  It doesn't help when organizers choose daft formats - tee hee.

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

Is anyone aware of anyone at the junior or high school level who has done something concrete to establish a swift pace of play?

Sadly, at least in the state where I live (Wisconsin), those overseeing golf have done just the opposite. One of the dumbest rules I've ever seen in high school sports is the one that allows high school coaches out on the field of play, usually with their yardage finder, telling players exactly the distance to the pin and what club they should play. Golf coaches have 19 opportunities to talk to their players -- before and after their rounds, and the 17 walks between green and tee. Is that not enough? Do we really need them out on the course, instructing players what to do? Worse, it also takes away some of the things -- decision-making, and judgement -- that young players absolutely have to learn in order to play the game more quickly.

[C. Squier]

Lots of holier than thou in this thread.  Instead of complaining about those who are trying to make a living or playing for school, how many of you have:

1.  Told a client to speed up.
2.  Organized a corporate or charity outing around the demand of a 4 hour round
3.  Raised awareness at your own club about slow play
4.  Approached a known slow player at your club one on one about their slow play

I'm pretty sure I'll never be in a group following the Tour or a college tournament, but I'm darn sure to be affected by my other points, that to my knowledge haven't been broached in this thread.  It's easy to tell a kid to hurry his little ass up, but you don't dare tell your best customer his 5 hour pace is unbearable.  But HE is the guy who is clogging up our courses. 

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