Royal Cinque Ports - Why Isn't It A Top 100 Course?

[Will Lozier]

Tom

So, it may come down to the seawall being Deal's downfall?  In hindsight, I wonder if the club contemplated integrating that wall more into the design (such as on #6) when it was built or if public access made it an impossibility from the start?

That is an interesting take comparing Machrihanish and Deal by memorable holes.  For me, memorable holes matter, but I tend to think, with the given exception of one hole (every course is allowed to have a dud), that courses are no better than their weakest parts.  Meaning, for every weak or dull hole, a really good or unique hole is nullified.  Brancaster is a good example.  There are some very cool holes on the course, but too many which just take up space for me to call it a great course.  The back nine at Machrihanish seriously drags down the overall quality of the design for me - enough that I would even come close to contemplating it for top 100.  Turnberry is another interesting example.  The course doesn't really have much in the way of outstanding holes given its huge reputation and some quite dull, but perfectly competent holes to boot.  

Deal too has a few weak design areas, well weak for me, but probably not universally accepted as weak.  Specifically, the par 3s all leave something to be desired.  The best of the lot is #4, but the gunge behind the green is rather silly.  However, as I alluded to, many people like the 3s and so I have to accept that there must be some merit to what they say.  

Balanced against that though are some fine holes.  #16 is quite a top flight par 5 for me.  #6 is a great short oar 4.  #3 could easily be a cracker with some minor tweaks.  For that matter, the 4th is just some gunge away from being a cracking par 3.  #18 too isn't far off being fantastic with some adjustments.  Many will likely disagree with me, but I think #10 is a great hole and I am always going to over-praise the great holes on average or even using poor land.  Importantly, other than #8, I can't say Deal has a dud hole.    

Ciao

Hey, I cited the sea wall as a factor -- not THE factor.  Give me a bit of credit.

We're not so far apart here, really.  I agree with your thoughts about the merits of individual holes at Machrihanish, and Turnberry, too.  Regarding Deal, 16 and 17 were the two holes I thought of as great.  #6 is a good short par 4, great I don't see.  #3 and #4 are both very good holes, but fall a bit short -- and there's another thing that hurts the course a bit for someone like me, the fact that the most storied hole from the olden days [the Sandy Parlour] is a major letdown, because it's mostly gone.

In the end, the difference between us is your idea that "the course is no better than its weakest parts."  When I'm DESIGNING a course I tend to think that way, but when I'm deciding whether I want to go back again, it's the strengths of the courses that I dwell on, not their weaknesses. 

Indeed, I get perturbed when people commenting on a course fall back on the same tired boilerplate criticisms of a course [lack of variety in the par-3's, varying wind directions, weak finishing hole] and fail to appreciate the strengths, as so many do.  For example, just below, Will says Rye "has weaker holes at points in the routing," but there are about a dozen really exciting holes there, which is more than most courses could ever dream of.

I agree with Tom that the seawall does take away from the experience - not the architecture!  However, the architecture isn't boosted by the aesthetics because of the lack of views.  I would LOVE to see some photos of the course pre-wall! 

I think that it can easily be argued that with views, Deal is an easy Doak 8 (I think it is anyway but can certainly understand all arguments).  I still claim that Deal has as many great holes as Rye - albeit with fewer big undulations in the property - with Rye having a huge advantage in the short holes.

Cheers

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Deal is a great course but suffers from a few too many pedestrian holes as well as being in a neighborhood with 2 of the true greats in RSG and Rye. It is probably ranked about right at 135. However this is subjective and if it was 90 I would not say anything different.

[Mark Pearce]

This discussion makes me more detrmined than ever to get back to Rye to see what I missed when I played it.  I remember a number of brilliant holes but more than Tom D's handful of mundane (or even poor) ones.  That is the hazard of 1) being an unreliable judge and 2) playing anywhere just once, as an unreliable judge.

Deal is certainly, for me, ahead of Hoylake and Porthcawl.

[Mark Chaplin]

The sea wall at Deal was the saviour of the club not it's downfall, remember the club lost two Opens and a Ryder Cup because of flooding, if the course had flooded in the 1980s and had several hundred thousand tonnes of shingle covering the course the club would have gone bust. Rather than incorporate it into the course the environmental people could easily have built it 50 yards further inland and we wouldn't have a golf course at all.

One hole that splits opinion on Deal is the first, the drive is fairly wide but dead left and out of bounds right, a burn in front of the green which is over forty yards deep and contains some serious humps and hollows. Four of our biggest club weekend events are matchplay and the Halford Hewitt is matchplay, the nineteenth at Deal is a truly great hole especially with a well lunched audience on the balcony!

I must agree the par 3s at Deal lack variation, yesterday morning on the forth I hit a 4 iron to ten feet and my partner holed the birdie putt. In the afternoon I hit 9 iron but my partner missed the 20 footer. 

Rye is an hour and fifteen minutes away so hardly an influence on Deal.

[Sean_A]

Tom

Yes, Rye does have the dull if not dangerous 10th - the only hole I would come close to calling weak and Deal doesn't have one that dull.  The par 3s blow the doors off Deal's, but Deal's par 5s blow the doors off Rye's singular first.  For me, its the par 5s which really elevate Deal because it seems like so many courses have rather average fives.  Deal has one great one, one that could easily be great and one which should just be called a par 4, either way, it isn't special.  Rye's 4s are probably more varied, but I would have to have a long think before conceding they are better than Deal's.   For mine, Rye's subtle directional shifts and use of the dune ridges just trumps Deal.  I admit that I hugely admire the routing and think it one of the very best around.  It is very easy to imagine Rye being just another run of the mill good course without that great routing.  By the way, I have been told that Rye has finally succumbed and installed a fairway irrigations system this past year!

Getting back to Deal's place in the world, I would put it in front of every current Open venue save TOC and Sandwich - throw in Pinehurst as well.  Porthcawl is not in Deal's class, neither is Yeamans Hall and Brancaster.  Machrihanish is miles off the pace.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Getting back to Deal's place in the world, I would put it in front of every current Open venue save TOC and Sandwich - throw in Pinehurst as well.  Porthcawl is not in Deal's class, neither is Yeamans Hall and Brancaster.  Machrihanish is miles off the pace.

Ciao

Sean:

Going back to my ratings of the various courses you just cited -- and I've changed a few of them from what was published 15 years ago -- I have the following:

10  Muirfield
10  Pinehurst No. 2
 8  Royal Lytham & St. Annes
 8  Turnberry (Ailsa) - and I admit to yielding to some peer pressure there, I like it so much I haven't been back since 1983

I've got all the other courses you named -- Royal Troon, Carnoustie, Royal Liverpool, Royal Birkdale, Royal Porthcawl, Royal West Norfolk [of which I'm especially fond], Machrihanish, and Yeamans Hall -- all at 7, tied with my upgraded mark for Deal.  [And pretty much all of the courses which Brian Sheehy named, I've got as 7's, too, Brookline being the single 8.] 

There is room for some of these in a top 100 list, in my view, but there are 100 7's and I, like you, tend to rate in groups and not make much of my preferences within the group.

These lists like Brian and Michael are making -- "it's better than what [I rate as] the weakest course in the top 100, so it deserves to be in there," are silly.  Top 100 lists are silly.  There are more than 100 great courses in the world, and the exact ordering of them is just a whim.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike I completely agree with you on the ground at Deal. Littlestone has some of the best par 3's in the world as does Crail, but no one continues to push those courses for higher stature in the ratings game. Crail is on a great piece of land as well. Deal has great golfing turf and land. However I do not see it ahead of any of the courses you and Brian mentioned. I do not see how 135 is an insult. That is great company to be in. This especially the case in a highly subjective analysis like this. I also find this a bit of like the DR posts where members and friends of members continue to promote the course. This is far from the first time this or a subject like this on Deal has come up. I always thought GCA is a place for thoughtful discussion on architecture and not a place to push a courses stature in the eyes of others. What Deal is is a great value for its Members especially the non resident ones. Mountain Lake is a also a great course which in my is better and more fun to play than Deal. yet it is not rated as highly. It is also a great value for its Members which is really the common trait they shar eother than great fun golf.

[Howard Riefs]

Going back to my ratings of the various courses you just cited -- and I've changed a few of them from what was published 15 years ago -- I have the following:

10  Muirfield
10  Pinehurst No. 2
 8  Royal Lytham & St. Annes
 8  Turnberry (Ailsa) - and I admit to yielding to some peer pressure there, I like it so much I haven't been back since 1983

Tom,

Is your updated rating of Pinehurst in light of the C&C restoration work?

[Jud_T]

Wasn't Carnoustie an 8 originally? 

[Eric Strulowitz]

A wonderful course, I found the starting and finishing hole out of character and a bit boring.  The sea wall takes away aesthetically.  It is on a very narrow strip of land.  These are the only negatives I see, and they are not biggies.  And having played RSG and Rye, I would have to place RCP as #3.

Now if we rated a course on the quality of lunch, I would put RCP in the top 10 in the world.  The haddock was to die for, the portions were beyond huge.  

A wonderful course, would love to play it again someday.   Took pictures of every hole, approach shot, and green complexes, the course was beyond fun.  And what made my day even better was mid 70's temp and a virtually windless day.

[Mark Chaplin]

We may not be a top 100 course but we are well up there in terms of club. This past weekend we hosted a group from a well known US golfing club, sadly Saturday was foul in terms of weather with heavy rain and strong winds. The day could have been a disaster but we had an evening of good food, exceptional wines, jokes, stories, a magician and the lights finally went out at 2am, that is the real Deal experience!

[Sean_A]

Tom

Getting back to Deal's place in the world, I would put it in front of every current Open venue save TOC and Sandwich - throw in Pinehurst as well.  Porthcawl is not in Deal's class, neither is Yeamans Hall and Brancaster.  Machrihanish is miles off the pace.

Ciao

Sean:

Going back to my ratings of the various courses you just cited -- and I've changed a few of them from what was published 15 years ago -- I have the following:

10  Muirfield
10  Pinehurst No. 2
 8  Royal Lytham & St. Annes
 8  Turnberry (Ailsa) - and I admit to yielding to some peer pressure there, I like it so much I haven't been back since 1983

I've got all the other courses you named -- Royal Troon, Carnoustie, Royal Liverpool, Royal Birkdale, Royal Porthcawl, Royal West Norfolk [of which I'm especially fond], Machrihanish, and Yeamans Hall -- all at 7, tied with my upgraded mark for Deal.  [And pretty much all of the courses which Brian Sheehy named, I've got as 7's, too, Brookline being the single 8.]  

There is room for some of these in a top 100 list, in my view, but there are 100 7's and I, like you, tend to rate in groups and not make much of my preferences within the group.

These lists like Brian and Michael are making -- "it's better than what [I rate as] the weakest course in the top 100, so it deserves to be in there," are silly.  Top 100 lists are silly.  There are more than 100 great courses in the world, and the exact ordering of them is just a whim.

Tom

I see where you are coming from, for sure I prefer to group courses and Deal for me would certainly be in a quality group with Muirfield, Hoylake, Sandwich, Rye, Lahinch, Co Down etc (picking an order within that group ala LINKS100 is doable, but not terribly informative).  I would have Turnberry, Brancaster, Porthcawl & Lytham etc in a lower group - maybe still top 100 - I couldn't say.  

Chappers

Regardless of why the wall is there, its unattractive. Just like the land dictates the routing is out n' back - so what - its still out n' back and not ideal in terms of the ideal for golf.  For me though, the terrain (man it really is damn near perfect) goes  along way.    

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

I have written more on the merits of Deal than anyone else here and burned up Tom's inbox to have another look at the course as it has been far far too long.  The LINKS ranking is a joke but I only care about the Golf Ranking and I have an idea on where Deal is on that panel's vote and it is much more in line with where it should be even if I do vote it in the Top 100.  I believe the purveyor of this site also votes it in the World Top 100.

I could go on waxing poetic about what I think is great about Deal and since I've seen most of the great links in the world (well the GB&I ones), I must say after visiting Hoylake last year I don't see why 1) Deal isn't on the rota and 2) how Hoylake is rated higher.

But again--Deal... Well Darwin, Pennick, Steel, Cotton, Sir Guy Campbell and Sir Peter Allen-- pretty good luminaries have all wrote of Deal's merits.  That should set a basis for its quality.

But I'll boil Deal's essence to me in 1 quality. There is not one indifferent shot followed by another indifferent shot.. Oh sure, the drive on 9 or 11 aren't great (although I like the sea wall tee on #11) but the approaches require cunning..  So you never get bored at Deal.  

Deal's other assets are

1) Great short par 4-- I disagree with Tom based upon 1 visit, you can't call the 6th good, it is GREAT.. Try playing it in varied winds and you'll see

2) Great short par 5- 16th-- duh

3) Great long par 4-- play the 3rd as a par 4, or try #12 or #15

4) Great medium length par 4s, 13, 17 and even 2 is solid

5) Par 3s-- a weakness, well I happen to like JSF Morrison's 4th hole, yes I'd prefer the old Sandy Parlour but 4 is damn good and so is #14. I will admit 8 is fair but to me it is still superior to #2 or #17 at Rye.-- to me!


6) The course is the closest in ethos to the Old Course of any links I'm seen.. Tight, out and back with a crook at the end and the 1st hole similarities.

Blah Blah Blah.. My bias is known here and frankly I know this-- Read Shackelford's piece on Deal in the last Golf World Open Edition. He excellent summarizes why it is the best course not holding the Open.

And if no one agrees with me, hey I'm fine with it-- As Conan the Barbarian says to Krom at the end of the movie-- " If you do not listen, then to hell with you!"

[Bart Bradley]

There are many good responses to here to support the notion that Deal should be in the TOP 100 (a notion that I agree with).  I might ask this simple question to highlight the debate:
 
Can you name another course outside the TOP 100 with a better set of greens than Deal?

I am not sure that I can.

I think Deal is an 8.

Bart

[Sean_A]

There are many good responses to here to support the notion that Deal should be in the TOP 100 (a notion that I agree with).  I might ask this simple question to highlight the debate:
 
Can you name another course outside the TOP 100 with a better set of greens than Deal?

I am not sure that I can.

I think Deal is an 8.

Bart

Bart

I assume you mean outside TOP100 with a sniff at a spot.  Unquestionably the course I grew up on - Grosse Ile - has a better set of greens than Deal.  Looking at the top 200, I am blinking my eyes at not seeing Old Town (surely I just missed it).  Anyway, I don't think Deal's greens are a match there either and it should be sniffing at a TOP100 spot.  Woking is  another course which gives Deal a very good run for its money.  I have a sneaky suspicion the Castle Course is working or will be working on its greens.  If tamed properly they too will should be a better set than Deal's.  I think we are making a bit too much of the greens.  They are a fine set for sure, but there are many greens which are merely nothing special.   

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Which greens are nothing special?

1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are all particular noteworthy. That's a lot of greens. Do you disagree with amy of those selections.

Tiger,

I disagree strongly that this is like a DR thread. This thread is full of spirited but respectful architectural debate, which is what GCA is all about. Not to mention the fact it was started by a noted Deal critic...

[Sean_A]

Scott

4-11, 13, 14 & 18 are good enough, but not particularly noteworthy.  Mind you, greens like 4, 6 & 18 don't need to be anything special because their sites provide the real interest.

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

I think this quote says it all for me:

More is the pity is that golfers rush to play courses on the modern Open rot alike Royal Birkdale and Muirfield, not understanding that the historic links at Deal still offers a superior form of links golf to this day. In sum, to quote Mark Rowlinson again regarding Deal, ‘True, there are blind shots, short par 4s, and uneven fairways, the sort of thing deplored by some modern players, but they are appreciated and expected by connoisseurs of true links golf.’


SUPERIOR FORM OF LINKS GOLF... We all know Ran is a scammer when it comes to weaseling out shots in a match but while his game is suspect  , his eye is one of the best..

By the way Tuco Ramirez was spotted in St. George Utah today pillaging amongst the mormons.. He fought with John Fought.

[Scott Warren]

Sean, I'm referring to the greens as a whole -- their site, defences (sand and land), internal shapes... the lot.

[Michael Whitaker]

Scott

4-11, 13, 14 & 18 are good enough, but not particularly noteworthy.  Mind you, greens like 4, 6 & 18 don't need to be anything special because their sites provide the real interest.

Ciao

Geez, Sean, you are a tough cookie! 4 is not noteworthy? 6 is not noteworthy? 10 is not noteworthy? 14 not noteworthy? 18 not noteworthy?

You know I respect your opinion, but you've got me scratching my head. I think these greens and surrounds are particularly noteworthy. Each one presents a unique challenge and requires a thoughtful approach... which I would think is the definition of noteworthy.

[Bart Bradley]

Sean:

I feel like we are not talking about the same course, so I don't even know how to respond.  I found the greens full of variety and interest, providing fun and interesting short game shots and putting surfaces.  Like Mike and Scott I am scratching my head at your take on these greens.  I guess we will just have to disagree.

Bart

[Scott Warren]

Guys,

Surely Sean can only have been focusing solely on the internal contours to: 1. Call those holes out as not being special, and 2. Suggest Woking's greens are the equal of Deal, or even in the same discussion (as good as Woking's greens are).

And funny how the more-or-less out-and-back routing is an issue, but that's not raised at TOC or NGLA, even though Deal's routing changes direction significantly SIX TIMES and tacks fairly majorly (crucial in the wind) on the straight-line stretches from 2-7 and 12-18.

[Mac Plumart]

I've never played this course, so I can't give my opinion if it is a Top 100 or not.  But after reading "Deal me in" by Mr. Freeman on the "In My Opinion" section, I discovered he said the following about a round at Deal,

After playing Deal...I felt a divine feeling of full contentment.

Who cares if the course is rated by Links Magazine as Top 100?  Sure, if a course deserve higher recognition then it gets people should try to right that wrong.  But at the end of the day if members and guests leave the course feeling like Noel felt, that should make for a very pleased membership and a thriving course/club.

[Sean_A]

Guys,

Surely Sean can only have been focusing solely on the internal contours to: 1. Call those holes out as not being special, and 2. Suggest Woking's greens are the equal of Deal, or even in the same discussion (as good as Woking's greens are).

And funny how the more-or-less out-and-back routing is an issue, but that's not raised at TOC or NGLA, even though Deal's routing changes direction significantly SIX TIMES and tacks fairly majorly (crucial in the wind) on the straight-line stretches from 2-7 and 12-18.

Yes, I was referencing solely the greens.  Even if we are considering site and surrounds, there are about 6 greens which only a Dealie could say are noteworthy.  As I wrote earlier, #s 4, 6 and 18 don't need much in the way fancy dan surfaces.  Although, I can't get my head around why the best hole locations on #18 aren't even part of the green!  The club should extend the green to cover the entire platform.   

Okay, a bunch of minor aspects about Deal may add up to not being included in the TOP100, but I have never heard anybody reference all these "issues" in a coherent argument of Deal's shortcomings - meaning that practically nobody would see all the issues mentioned as negatives.  I still maintain Deal's strengths of great terrain & turf, good green complexes and an ability to test high calibre players while still providing a tough, but manageable test for less gifted golfers outweighs the negatives.  But then I am a huge proponent of terrain and turf as the foundations for great golf.

Ciao 

[Sean_A]

Brian

You must have a much lower threshold for noteworthy and I would expect nothing less from a Dealie - tee hee. 

Ciao