[Mike Sweeney]

From the former poster Matt Ward:

(Courses are listed in Alpha Order)
 
FIRST FIVE

Bayonne -- Hats off to Eric Bergstol -- as much talk as Shadow Creek gets -- this one surpasses it given all the hurdles that were handled. Hard to imagine you're in the heart of Hudson County -- the course evokes an Irish feel even if completely man-made. The back nine is extremely well done and challenging.

Essex County CC -- The most underrated of courses in NJ. Credit the club for hiring Gil Hanse and George Bahto. For years the front nine was the weak link -- no more. The back nine is utterly stellar. For those who have not been there recently -- it's time for a return engagement.

Galloway National -- Tom Fazio has often been accused of building "all show / no substance" courses. Galloway has plenty of teeth and bites with regularity (along with the greenheads and mosquitos when in full force) for mis-played shots. There's still plenty of design make-up present but credit Fazio for not overdoing it to extreme here.
 
Pine Valley -- The one and only. The greatness for me is in the variety of contours of the putting surfaces. Still could eliminate more trees but a small aside indeed. Superb routing and change of pace holes abound.

Plainfield -- Got torched in last year's Barclays -- but credit Dustin Johnson in fine form for doing that. Course has spectacular terrain and has been bolstered by work Hanse did there not too long ago. Superb rolling land that really gets you into the game -- starting off with NJ's best opening hole.

 
SECOND FIVE

Baltusrol / Lower -- Not a big fan. Has the tradition / history market and no doubt doesn't hurt Nicklaus won two US Opens there along with Phil's '05 PGA. However, the architecture is not really worthy of elite top 100 USA stature -- shows how people confuse major championship host sites and design pedigree. Nonetheless, the course does have it's moments with the solid final two par-5 holes.

Baltusrol / Upper -- Better land and more vexing putting surfaces than big brother. Doesn't really get the attention -- except from the members who know better. In this grouping I'd have the Upper ahead of the Lower for the exact opposite reasons -- hats off to the club for taking the time to really add to what was there originally.
 
Hollywood -- Too bad the original design could not be kept in place. Still, this Jersey Shore layout is worthy of attention for the design elements still there. Not a real fan of the much heralded par-3 4th -- tad overdone. But the concluding trio of holes is well done. The one pet peeve I have -- often times the turf is kept too saturated to my tastes. Hosts the MGA Open this year.

Ridgewood (E & W) -- Classic parkland golf. No frills or extras -- just the need for solid and consistent play. While the Center Nine has a few holes of note -- the East & West provide the best combination of holes for the duration. The need for superb driving skills is what makes Ridgewood a fair and testing layout. Just ask Lee Trevino and Vijay Singh from there wins there.

Trump National / Old -- No question the name Trump will elicit strong reactions. Aside from the man's ego -- The Old Course at TN is well done by Tom Fazio with plenty of teeth and clever change of pace holes to keep the player off stride. Unfortunately, the green complexes are not as varied or complex -- otherwise would be even higher rated.

 
THIRD FIVE

Forsgate / Banks -- Credit ownership with improving this superb Banks layout. The quartet of par-3 holes is unmatched save for the likes of PV and Plainfield. Love the back-to-back par-5 holes to close out the front side. Very playable for all but never a pushover by any means. Isolated location has hurt the course from being appreciated even more.

Montclair (#2 & #4 Nines) -- Only course listed with two different architect's for the different nines. The Ross 2nd Nine is well done with a great opening trio of holes. The 4th nine also starts well and conclues with a fine ending hole. Given the amount of elevation change -- over 250 feet -- the course does well in all types of events and for all types of players.

Mountain Ridge -- Hosts US Sr. Amateur this year and it will be a fitting "coming out" opportunity for this fine Ross layout. Course has been restored and upgraded and the results have been well done. Still course tends to overwater the grounds -- if truly firm and fast the layout would play even better. One of the best finishing holes in all of NJ with the 18th here.
Somerset Hills -- When firm and fast - arguably the toughest greens to handle in the state -- and that includes against the likes of PV and Plainfield. The front nine is so completely different than the back but they both provide fun golf for the bulk of players. A poor closing hole hurts the final impression. Being near to USGA HQ has been a real plus for this layout too.
 
Trump National / New -- Quality follow-up effort to the original Old Course. TN gets panned by many because of The Donald. The New Course has the better terrain and minus a few holes of little consequence -- provides for a thorough examination.

FOURTH FIVE

Hamilton Farm -- No real negatives here but few real raves either. Like the par-5 9th hole as it works towards the clubhouse. Hurdzan and Fry have done better elsewhere -- see Devil's Paintbrush in Ontario. HF doesn't have any wow moments but it's consistency is quite thorough. If anything, the par-3 course is even better than the main 18.

Hidden Creek -- Crenshaw & Coore did a fine job here but the terrain is less than ideal and they maxed out what they could. If anything the design duo has such a reputation that the course has benefited more from the association than the other way around. Very playable layout and a few holes of note -- the par-4 10th and par-3 11th, are two such examples.

Manasquan River -- Gets little to no attention. Course provides two distinct looks -- front nine more wooded and hilly -- back nine flatter and weaves it's way out to the open and the freshening breezes near the River. Golf Digest mentioned the course many years ago but for some reason was forgotten. Not by me.
Medford Village -- The former Sunny Jim's is still worthy of notice/attention. The Gordon duo did this layout and while they get more attention elsewhere (see Stanwich Club) the work at Medford Village is quite solid -- few weak holes here. A bit more tree trimming would help with hole versatility but all in all a solid test of golf that rarely suffers fools.
 
Morris County -- Seth Raynor gets plenty of ink for other courses -- notably Fisher's Island and Camargo. Morris County is not at that level but it is not THAT far behind. Course has three distinct presentations -- the first third is more about finesse -- the second third is about combining power and placement and the final third is a composite of different type holes. Not long on length but full of interesting and fun design elements that have been smartly preserved over the years.

FIFTH FIVE

ACCC -- Credit Tom Doak for shaking the cobwebs off the place -- ditto for the purchase by Caesar's for pumping in long overdue $$. ACCC's greatest asset is being what it is -- a quality member's course. It's not especially challenging but it does have good hole differentiation and Doak added a few tweaks to bring this old-time special course into the 21st century.

Ballyowen -- Along with ACCC and Twisted Dune -- Ballyowen represent the best of NJ public golf. Roger Rulewich deserves plenty of credit here -- holes such as the par-4 7th and 9th holes are well done. Ditto a back nine that provides for plenty of variety.
Hackensack
 
Laurel Creek
 
Twisted Dune


Honorable Mention: Alpine, Crestmont, Royce Brook / West, Woodcrest

[Jeff Spittel]

Personally, I'd slot Suburban and Echo Lake somewhere in that last five.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Mountain ridge is exponentially better than Bayonne, Galloway and Trump old and superior to Forsgate and Montclair.

Matt's out of touch about MRCC NOT being F&F

And I'm positive that Matt has NOT seen the recent changes to MRCC

I like Bayonne and think it's a modern marvel but it doesn't hold a candle to MRCC.

Hamilton Farms is practically unwalkable.

To rate Ballyowen ahead of the Knoll is probably an oversight.

If you'd get your ass out to MRCC you'd be able to judge for yourself

[Mike Sweeney]

I am on mobile the rest of the day, but here is an early morning response from Matt:

Hi Mike,
 
I didn't send you the complete version with all course comments included ... if you can post the info on this communication you will have it. I am speaking specifically to the courses in the final five grouping -- my respective comments are added when you scroll down.
 
I am in the process in doing New York State and will send that on to you as well.
 
I have seen the comments here are a few retorts ...
 
Pat needs to play the entire listing of courses -- and I mean in the most current of times. I have played MR since the work and it's very good but it can't crack the ceiling any higher in my mind. Bayonne is a marvel in what was done to create it - plus the quality of the holes - the back nine especially is superior. Ditto Ballyowen is better than Knoll West -- there are a number of sleeping holes at Knoll West that are lackluster -- too bad the bulk of the course could not be as good as the opening and closing sequence of holes.
 
One other thing -- Forsgate / Banks and Montclair #2 and #4 nines are very much underappreciated in the state by many people. In regards to HF being "unwalkable" -- they've had pro tournaments there and the folks do walk. If you can walk Montclair -- you can easily walk HF.
 
I also see Galloway National as one of TF's top tier courses and the Trump Old 18 is another example of what TF can do when not focusing squarely on the "how it looks" department.
 
Final item -- the courses are listed in alpha order -- so it's possible, for some, that a course can be at the top of it's individual grouping -- I find no need to rate in some sort of numerical order like a college football /basketball poll. A grouping of courses works better for a bit of elasticity.
 
Can appreciate what Jeff says -- but Suburban is a possible top 50 layout in NJ -- at best. Echo Lake is a good layout and likely should have been added -- as an honorable mention.
 
Thanks Mike ...
 
matt

[Dan_Callahan]

I don't mean to quibble, but I really wish there was more substance to the course descriptions. How many times can you say, "the design is well done." What does that mean? Are these just excerpts from longer descriptions? When you say a course has great finishing par 5s, or has the best opening hole in the state, I would love to read what it is about those holes that makes them so great. Same is true with the negatives ... "a tad overdone" ... don't know what that means ... "change of pace keeps the player off stride" ... what is the change of pace? How is that accomplished?

Again, sorry to be critical if this is only a partial text of a longer copy. But as it is, it seems like much more of an insider's guide for people who already know about the par 5s at Baltusrol or the 4th at Hollywood, in which case they probably already have their own opinions about the courser and don't need to read someone else's. For those of us who haven't played many of these courses, more descriptive writing would have been great.

[George Pazin]

I don't mean to quibble, but I really wish there was more substance to the course descriptions. How many times can you say, "the design is well done." What does that mean? Are these just excerpts from longer descriptions? When you say a course has great finishing par 5s, or has the best opening hole in the state, I would love to read what it is about those holes that makes them so great. Same is true with the negatives ... "a tad overdone" ... don't know what that means ... "change of pace keeps the player off stride" ... what is the change of pace? How is that accomplished?

Allow me the pleasure of translating MattSpeak(TM) (I am a certified instructor in MattSpeak(TM)):

"The design is well done" ===> Lots of reward for long hitters, lots of punishment for HHers (they should just play the right tees, then everything would be fine)

"great finishing par 5" ===> Matt found his bombed drive in the perfect position to hit 7 iron to the green; his shorter hitting playing partners were suitably punished for their lack of length. Doesn't much matter what the results were...

"a tad overdone" ===> some minimalist didn't knock down the tree or mound that Matt's drive ended up behind. And then the green(s) were too severe.

"change of pace keeps the player off stride" ===> repetitive brutally long slog holes are intermixed with shorter holes strewn with penalty ridden hazards; if you don't like it, you lack the refined tastes of those who prefer to indulge in all culinary delights, from steak and potatoes to Thai cuisine, with an occasional sidetrip to the Mongolian BBQ.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'm happy to lend a hand. I also offer an accreditation program in MattSpeak(TM), for those interested...

 

-----

Can't imagine any state having 10+ courses better than Mountain Ridge...

[Joe Bausch]

I don't mean to quibble, but I really wish there was more substance to the course descriptions. How many times can you say, "the design is well done." What does that mean? Are these just excerpts from longer descriptions? When you say a course has great finishing par 5s, or has the best opening hole in the state, I would love to read what it is about those holes that makes them so great. Same is true with the negatives ... "a tad overdone" ... don't know what that means ... "change of pace keeps the player off stride" ... what is the change of pace? How is that accomplished?

Allow me the pleasure of translating MattSpeak(TM) (I am a certified instructor in MattSpeak(TM)):

"The design is well done" ===> Lots of reward for long hitters, lots of punishment for HHers (they should just play the right tees, then everything would be fine)

"great finishing par 5" ===> Matt found his bombed drive in the perfect position to hit 7 iron to the green; his shorter hitting playing partners were suitably punished for their lack of length. Doesn't much matter what the results were...

"a tad overdone" ===> some minimalist didn't knock down the tree or mound that Matt's drive ended up behind. And then the green(s) were too severe.

"change of pace keeps the player off stride" ===> repetitive brutally long slog holes are intermixed with shorter holes strewn with penalty ridden hazards; if you don't like it, you lack the refined tastes of those who prefer to indulge in all culinary delights, from steak and potatoes to Thai cuisine, with an occasional sidetrip to the Mongolian BBQ.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'm happy to lend a hand. I also offer an accreditation program in MattSpeak(TM), for those interested...

 

-----

Can't imagine any state having 10+ courses better than Mountain Ridge...

You must be some pea-shooter George.   

I'm going to have to start my Top 25 Executive Courses in New Jersey. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

George
Very close, but partners should read pardners.

Great to hear from you pardner (Matt)

[George Pazin]

George
Very close, but partners should read pardners.

Great to hear from you pardner (Matt)

  Thanks for picking up on that, Mike!

Mike is also an accredited translator of MattSpeak(TM). We look out for each other.

[Dan Byrnes]

Do you guys concour that Hollywood in Deal, NJ is one of the top 10 courses in the state?  I am interested in visiting that one.

Dan

[Jay Flemma]

Ballyowen?? Really??

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Interesting inclusion of Medford Village...I've never seen it ranked on any NJ lists. Haven't played it.

[David Cronheim]

Do you guys concour that Hollywood in Deal, NJ is one of the top 10 courses in the state?  I am interested in visiting that one.

Dan

I'm a member at Deal GC across the street and despite that, I'd say it's easily inside the top 10 haha. They also stole 3 of our holes...(back in 1915 and fair and square I might add). It's a fantastic course from start to finish with very few boring holes.

[David Cronheim]

No offense, but I'm not sure the creator of this list has played a lot of golf in NJ...

Galloway is WAY overrated in the top 5, but I can live with that. It's just a course I've never been particularly fond of, but I'm willing to admit that's perhaps a personal taste.

The Banks Course at Forsgate shouldn't crack the Top 50. I get that it's got some template holes, but I played it last fall for the first time in 15 years and was ready to be impressed because I'm a huge Raynor/Macdonald fan. It's not bad, but of all the Raynor/MacDonald/Banks courses I've played, it's by far my least favorite. The challenge on every hole is the same - don't hit it in the 30 ft deep bunkers next to the greens.

Morris County is a better "template" course and one that I think is a TON of fun, but it's been overpowered by modern equipment. It's got at least 3 driveable par 4s and the par 5s aren't long enough for modern play. That said, again, I LOVE it, but it doesn't rate as a top in state candidate for me.

Laurel Creek, Medford, Ballyowen aren't even in the conversation. Twisted Dune is a fun (big) track in south Jersey that I'd give some love for a top public in state, but not top overall. The two pieces of credit I'm willing to give re the list are Essex County and Mountain Ridge. Both are tremendous courses that are very underrated. Mountain Ridge should be in the top 10, though not 15.

A few omissions in my book would be:

Canoe Brook (North) (top 10-15)
The Ridge at Back Brook (top 10)
Upper Montclair (top 25)
Metedeconk (top 20)...but only post renovation and removal of all the fescue and trees - big improvement
Echo Lake (top 25)

[Jim_Kennedy]

George
Very close, but partners should read pardners.

Great to hear from you pardner (Matt)

  Thanks for picking up on that, Mike!

Mike is also an accredited translator of MattSpeak(TM). We look out for each other.

Looks like the other Mike (Sweeney) forgot his MattSpeak™  or he'd have titled this thread "He's Baaaaaaaaaaaack..." 

[Scott Warren]

George, Mike and Jim - I hope Matt replies to some of you jokers so he can address you by name at least twice a paragraph, George, Mike and Jim.

[Sean Leary]

No offense, but I'm not sure the creator of this list has played a lot of golf in NJ...

This is funnier than you could ever know..........

[PCCraig]

No offense, but I'm not sure the creator of this list has played a lot of golf in NJ...

This is funnier than you could ever know..........

haha!!

[JNC Lyon]

I like Galloway National well enough, but I think I'd take both A.C.C.C. and Mountain Ridge over it.  The routing is awkward at Galloway--there's no getting around that--and the par fives there are all a bit strange and definitely underwhelming.  I may try for a hole-by-hole breakdown between each of the courses in a bit.  Overall, though, I prefer Atlantic City and Mountain Ridge because they have both a unified feel to them with a solid collection of golf holes.  Galloway has its great moments, but it is a little disjointed.

[Adam Clayman]

It's great to see Matt writing better.

[George Pazin]

George, Mike and Jim - I hope Matt replies to some of you jokers so he can address you by name at least twice a paragraph, George, Mike and Jim.

Now THIS is true genius. I bow before you, kind sir.

[Phil McDade]

No offense, but I'm not sure the creator of this list has played a lot of golf in NJ...

Galloway is WAY overrated in the top 5, but I can live with that. It's just a course I've never been particularly fond of, but I'm willing to admit that's perhaps a personal taste.

The Banks Course at Forsgate shouldn't crack the Top 50. I get that it's got some template holes, but I played it last fall for the first time in 15 years and was ready to be impressed because I'm a huge Raynor/Macdonald fan. It's not bad, but of all the Raynor/MacDonald/Banks courses I've played, it's by far my least favorite. The challenge on every hole is the same - don't hit it in the 30 ft deep bunkers next to the greens.

Morris County is a better "template" course and one that I think is a TON of fun, but it's been overpowered by modern equipment. It's got at least 3 driveable par 4s and the par 5s aren't long enough for modern play. That said, again, I LOVE it, but it doesn't rate as a top in state candidate for me.

Laurel Creek, Medford, Ballyowen aren't even in the conversation. Twisted Dune is a fun (big) track in south Jersey that I'd give some love for a top public in state, but not top overall. The two pieces of credit I'm willing to give re the list are Essex County and Mountain Ridge. Both are tremendous courses that are very underrated. Mountain Ridge should be in the top 10, though not 15.

A few omissions in my book would be:

Canoe Brook (North) (top 10-15)
The Ridge at Back Brook (top 10)
Upper Montclair (top 25)
Metedeconk (top 20)...but only post renovation and removal of all the fescue and trees - big improvement
Echo Lake (top 25)

Sweeney's busy, so he asked me to send along these comments...

David:

Now hold on partner! I know it's de rigueur here on GCA to bash Fazio, but his work at Galloway demonstrates he's gone waaaaay beyond the flashy accoutrements of past efforts and now is building courses of substance AND challenge. Don't let the classic-era bias of the GCA board influence your views -- Galloway is the real deal.

You also need to cut Forsgate some slack. Under-appreciated by many in the Garden State, because few make the effort to play it. But the sympathetic redo by Bhato and others makes for compelling golf, and as mentioned recent ownership emphasis on needed conditioning improvements easily slots this into top-15 territory. Same hold true for Morris County -- plenty of challenge out there if you're willing to look for it.

Canoe Brook and the Ridge at Back Brook? You gotta be kidding me! They can't hold a candle to the aforementioned courses on the original listing. Bland, overdone work we've all seen before. At the end of the day, no way I make the trek to those courses over the 25 I first mentioned.

 

[astavrides]

How about a Top 25 list of MattSpeakisms or doing this whole thread in MattSpeak...
Here's my contribution:
-Candidly, the public offerings of the Garden State are waaaay beyond the likes of what can be found if you refuse to cross over the Pennsy side of the border.

[Sven Nilsen]

You're all wrong, but I don't have time to tell you why now.  I'll follow up later.

[Sam Morrow]

George
Very close, but partners should read pardners.

Great to hear from you pardner (Matt)

Does Matt still think Champions has flat greens?

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