[Sean_A]

Sean,

What constitutes "adequate resources" in the face of a litigious environment ?

Pat

I thought you knew the answer to that as you stated what the the USGA now has is more than adequate. 

Ciao

[PThomas]

But David, don't you know... They're ALL really good, the next Pele... All they need is intensive practice at the expense of everything else to max out their talent! LOL!

I have to say this: if I was a college coach of just about any sport I can think of other, the LAST kids I'd recruit would be kids from places like the North Shore or Westchester County or Edina or the Main Line or  Pacific Palisades or whatever.  Why? Because they're all fully maxed-out on their talent (whatever level that may be) by the age of 17. They've had the best training playing one sport year round their entire lives, and the truth is that they have limited (if any) further upside. Give me the kid from Carpentersville who finished 9th in the state tournament after just picking up the game 3 years ago, only plays in season because he's playing other sports too,  and has only had a few lessons over the kid from Winnetka who has been playing one sport year-round for a decade and finished 4th.  I'd take the former all day over the latter if I'm half the coach I profess to be because the former has actual talent.  And you can't overachieve your way into talent.

David,
That's a very good post.
Sadly, many coaches won't even attend high school events, choosing to attend the "exclusive" travel tournaments.

I hate "travel" sports as it's generally just mediocre kids playing other mediocre kids-and they could find that in the same town.
It definitely hurts locally based leagues such as Little League, and essentially allows a kid a to "buy" his way onto an all-star team.

There's a lot to be said for only playing "in season"

I've heard several stories about kids super-focused on 1 sport for  many years who get burned out in high school, which is a real shame if they are very talented

my youngest girl told me about a friend who was getting burned out on basketball, which was amazing because when I coached her in grammar school she was nuts about the game, would keep practicing during water breaks and after practice ended...and she was the best player on the team

[Phil McDade]

Jeff, the same applies even to club sports. Give me the kid on the AJGA circuit who played baseball and hockey until he was 13 and is already a 3 by the age of 16 over the kid who was born with a Lamkin in his hands and is a scratch. Give me the girl who took ballet until she was 12 and then grew to 5'10" real fast and took up volleyball and got pretty darn competitive at Club ball within a few years over the kid who has been playing since 6 and is slightly better.  I see these overcoached kids all the time.  They're technically spectacular. They have the mechanics down pat. The problem is that they've essentially maxized mediocre natural ability- and they ain't gonna get much better.  They're like saturated sponges.  They aren't going to soak up much more water...

A very good article along these lines from Grantland.com, which looks at the Dodgers' Matt Kemp, now marauding through most pitchers in baseball, who was drafted fairly low by the Dodgers (6th round), in part because he was better known for his basketball skills in high school:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/25699/whats-going-on-with-matt-kemp

[Phil McDade]

Side issue: why don't more college golf coaches redshirt these types of kids?  If I was a college golf coach, I'd redshirt 3s with talent instead of gIving overcoached scratch kids 4 years...

Money? I know from talking to friends who have kids at Big 10 programs that money, oddly (or perhaps not?), is tight for non-revenue sports, and I assume carrying a kid for 5 years, with four for eligibility, costs more than some kid using his four years right away. Football and basketball can afford to maybe carry a kid for five years, but not the non-revenue sports. That's one guess.

The other I'd bet is that alot of these kids -- fed the line by parents, youth coaches, and that whole sham -- believe they can and ought to be playing right away, thinking the transition from high school to college isn't that big a deal. And it's huge, even at the mid-major D1 level.

Bo Ryan just got himself into a mess by putting restrictions on one of his redshirt freshman who didn't get much time this year (mainly, from what I hear, because he's more interested in offense than defense, a basic sin in Bo's world). The restriction issue aside, the kid seeking the transfer seems to be a pretty good case study for a somewhat big-time HS player (Mr. Iowa basketball in 2011) not making the transition very well to college, and simply wanting more court time. He'll get it, but probably at a mid-major like Northern Iowa or Creighton. Which is fine. But it's symptomatic of the problem faced by coaches -- ALL these kids, even in the non-revenue sports, think they have what it takes to play right away, so when coaches start throwing around the idea of red-shirting, my sense is they starting talking about taking their talents elsewhere.

(The Bears offensive tackle from Wisconsin, Gabe Carimi, is a really good example of how well a redshirt can work in football. I know his story pretty well, as he went to our -- my kids' -- high school. He was 6-7, 265 lbs as a senior, and a consensus all-state pick on both sides of the line. Not an ounce of fat on him, big frame, smart kid, coachable, weight room nut. But he also played against lots of D2 and D3 schools here, which are smaller high schools. Wisconsin got him, put him on a red-shirt, fed him steaks for 12 months, and a year later he grew an inch and weighed 305. Started every game from his freshman year on, and won the Outland his senior year. 1st round draft pick. One of the things the Wisconsin coaches liked about him is that he took part in track in high school -- shot and discus -- and demonstrated lots of agility other than just blocking people.)

[Steve Lapper]

Sean,

What constitutes "adequate resources" in the face of a litigious environment ?

Patrick,

Please name two progressive forward thinking organizations or companies run by lawyers.  I am sure there is probably one, two may be tough.



 

Mike,

  Goldman Sachs: Lloyd Blankfein
  American Express: Kenneth Chenault
  Cisco Systems: John Chambers
  Toys R Us: Gerry Storch
  Wellpoint: Angela Brady

Critical thinking isn't a bad thing

[Stuart Goldstein]

The travel soccer team that my son plays on, and I coach, is a feeder team for the local regional high school.  The boys and girls teams are comprised of kids for the three towns that will eventually go to the high school.  The travel team requires each kid who plays on the travel team to register and play for their individual  town rec programs.   This ensures that the town rec program stays strong.  In the rec program any kid who signs up plays, ability does not count.    Sometimes the more gifted kids get frustrated playing with those who are less talented or are playing because their parents signed them up.  That is sometimes even a worse situation, a kid playing on a rec team that does not want to be there but is there because their parents signed them up.  The travel team lets the more talented kids  play a more competitive schedule. 

[Stuart Goldstein]

Stuart:  an honest question - how many "more gifted kids" do you see on most teams?

I guess it depends what your definition of "gifted" is and how you measure it.  To me gifted means a talented individual who is substantially better than his peer group.   Can't you still be gifted and not make it to the pros, Olympics?  Isn't o.k. to be gifted and start on your HS team, be all-conference, all state perhaps earn a college scholoarshp?   My daughters friend is a record setting all conference HS quaterback with absolutely no chance to make it to the pros or even a D1 school.   I would say he is gifted.

How is it that New Trier wins all these state titles, but hardly EVER produces top-level athletes?

I think how you measure a top tier athlete is a little harsh and not realistic.  To win all those state titles you must have some top-level athletes.  Just becasue the staring pitcher of New Trier doesn't make it to the Yankeed doesn't mean he isn't a top level athlete.   To put it in golf terms if you become a scratch or + golfer and dont' make it to the PGA tour I would think most people would say you are a gifted golfer.  Why all the pressure to make it to the pros to be deemed a gifted athlete?

[Paul OConnor]

Dave,

There was also a kid last year, Charlie Tillison, who got picked in the first round of the MLB draft.

I think the real reason why the parents are suckered by the travel team con men has more to do with the parents self-image than any hope that their barely average child will somehow strike it rich.  What does it say about a family who cannot pay the $3k for travel soccer for their seventh grader?  Are they not quite rich enough?  Do they not have nearly unlimited disposable income?  You wouldn't want to give that kind of impression to your neighbors now would you?  How could you deny your child the best possible opportunity to succeed in sports, over a measly $3k a year?  How could you be so heartless?  Or, I'm sorry, so poor?  

It's one of the oldest cons in the book.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Stewart
Shivas is saying that the parents have lost perspective, not that the kids aren't talented or gifted.

[Sean_A]

There is no question Shivas is right.  That said, I can't see much wrong with offering choice.  If parents want to pay big bucks for their kids to kick or throw a ball about when sometimes there are cheaper options available which essentially fit the bill perfectly well for almost every kid out there, then so be it.  Its like anything in life, people like expensive labels and that is what travel teams really are.  That said, I know in hockey and baseball, those "travel teams" such as American Legion and various hockey leagues really are miles ahead of nearly all school sports programs in terms of competition.  This is very understandable for hockey because relatively speaking there are few rec. programs in the country.  I assume

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

But for all the money and time spent coaching these kids up literally from the day they're potty trained, there just isn't much in the way of real, honest-to-goodness, "holy-moly-that-kid-is-good!" talent coming out of there.  And there are plenty of programs that don't suck $3K-$10K per-year, per-kid out of parents' pockets every year that get as good or better results.  The model is broken. That's all I'm saying. 

Shivas,

My son this year will play in four international squash tournaments in Canada, England, Germany, and Italy with kids from around the world. There is literally one squash scholarship at George Washington University which was funded by an alum and then the Naval Academy team which obviously is not free with duty tied in. There are probably 15-25 people in the world that can make a living at playing squash professionally.

The best US squash player is the world is currently ranked #38 in the world.

In a million years, I don't see him profiting economically from the sport of squash, and the checks written by Mom and Dad are not small.

Many of his peers in high school are now at the partying stage of life and probably spend that kind of money on various kinds of party "materials". He would rather practice, and I don't get involved much, if at all.

He now has a worldwide network (similar to here) of guys that he can play with and stay with down the road. He is friends with Jewish guys from Israel, Muslim guys from Egypt and Catholic guys from Philly. 

How many 16 year olds beg their father to do anything? He "forced me" to play a father-son doubles tournament witnessed by a famous GCA.com squash player. It is clearly not my first choice of sports personally but if it keeps him from impregnating a girl, I am all for it. 

The model is not broken. As Sean said, travel teams and international competition are options to kids today, that only elite athletes MAY have had available back in our days of competition. It brings a bunch of other things to the table, IMO. Sure some parents overdo it, but in the big picture of life, is that really so bad and haven't some parents always overdone it?

If you want to target Division I basketball and football (revenue sports) at the elite levels, that system is pretty close to being broken.

[Carl Nichols]

Dave,
Looks like New Trier (a school that several good college friends attended) is a state powerhouse . . . . in swimming, diving, tennis, golf, and badminton.  Oh, and fencing.

In all seriousness, do you really think that all or most parents think that their kids should do travel soccer (or whatever) primarily because they want them to get college scholarships and then go pro? Maybe they just want them to play competitive sports at a relatively high level, or maybe even that's what their kids want, and paying the fee is the price for that. (By way of comparison, have you compared the price of travel soccer to one year's worth of once-a-week piano lessons?)

[jeffwarne]

Carl: I used to think the kids played on these teams for love of the game. Then I saw it first hand. Most of these kids would rather play house league with their friends once a week on Saturday mornings instead of playing 3-a-day tournaments so their coach can make a nice living. But the parents will have none of anything as pedestrian as that....

+1
God forbid those kids would spend the same hour practicing in the backyard with those same friends that they spend driving (each way) to go to the tournament.

[Mike Sweeney]

Carl: I used to think the kids played on these teams for love of the game. Then I saw it first hand. Most of these kids would rather play house league with their friends once a week on Saturday mornings instead of playing 3-a-day tournaments so their coach can make a nice living. But the parents will have none of anything as pedestrian as that....

+1
God forbid those kids would spend the same hour practicing in the backyard with those same friends that they spend driving (each way) to go to the tournament.

My wife is away so I filled her spot and spent yesterday with my son's running volunteer in Central Park at http://www.achillesinternational.org/. They are training him for a 5 mile race in June. She is 24 years old and it was pretty clear in the first 50 yards that she was a very good athlete. She grew up in Boston and sadly she knew the kids of guys that I went to Boston College with.   Anyway, she played two sports in high school, one sport at Dartmouth, and now is working in NYC and thinking about which Master's degree to pursue...

We are talking about sports and she states, "yea my Dad was the psycho Dad who made us shoot 150 free throws before bed and I played on teams and trips all over New England... I really appreciate it now because those trips brought us closer as a family."

So let's see, she is a beautiful gifted athlete who graduated from Dartmouth, loves her parents, misses her twin sister (also Dartmouth grad), volunteers on Saturday's with Special Needs kids, and is now considering a Master's in Education. These travel teams are the death of society!!

Oh yea, and the evil twin sister who also played travel team sports is flying in from Ohio to share race day with her sister and my son: http://www.achillesinternational.org/news/hope-and-possibility

Neither of the sisters play in the WNBA so it was a complete waste of money!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike, Shivas, et. al.,

My only concern is:

Do structured or organized sports begin to early in the kids lives ?

Exercise, physical activity is great, but how many kids will go on to play college sports ?  Professional sports ?

Do the adults herd the kids to organized sports too early in their lives ?

Second question.

Should the adults be banned from being spectators and just let the kids be with other kids ?

[Mike Sweeney]

In Pat Mucci fashion:

Mike, Shivas, et. al.,

My only concern is:

Do structured or organized sports begin to early in the kids lives ?

Like most things in life, some overdo it.

Exercise, physical activity is great, but how many kids will go on to play college sports ?  

Very few.


Professional sports ?

Almost none.

Do the adults herd the kids to organized sports too early in their lives ?

Please define too early.

Second question.

Should the adults be banned from being spectators and just let the kids be with other kids ?

No

[Mike Sweeney]

Patrick,

Now my real answer, which is a question.

Please define your life if your father had not been a role model/pushed you/led you/defined for you, tournament golf and all the things that have come with it?

Last I heard you have never made money directly from winning a golf tournament, but it seems to be a big part of your life. 

[Tim Martin]

Mike, Shivas, et. al.,

My only concern is:

Do structured or organized sports begin to early in the kids lives ?

Exercise, physical activity is great, but how many kids will go on to play college sports ?  Professional sports ?

Do the adults herd the kids to organized sports too early in their lives ?

Second question.

Should the adults be banned from being spectators and just let the kids be with other kids ?

The Connecticut Section PGA`s junior golf program only allows spectators at two of it`s competitions. The reason for this is that over zealous parents inserted themselves into situations time and time again to the detriment of their kids and the competitive process. The system works like a charm where kids keep each others cards and help each other with rulings. If there is an issue there is a rules guy close at hand. Additionally there are many kids that only feel pressure with a parent watching and this becomes a non issue under this system. High school golf in Connecticut has the same system with only coaches out on the course.

[Phil McDade]

High school golf in Connecticut has the same system with only coaches out on the course.

Which also should be banned.

[Steve Strasheim]

I think the cause of all this is the parents falling prey to these vultures that peddle travel sports for little children as a way to get a leg up.  It's all based on parental insecurities.  I can assure you of one thing:  it's not the kids who want this. 

DS:

I'm not so sure of that. Of all the kids I know of that play on select, or travel teams, not one would say they don't want to do it. Perhaps when they get older and have done it for awhile. But early on travel teams are cool. You seem to suggest that parents are forcing their kids into select clubs. I just don't see that. Heck, the kid has to try out. If he didn't want to be on the team, it would be pretty easy not to make it.

The Connecticut Section PGA`s junior golf program only allows spectators at two of it`s competitions. The reason for this is that over zealous parents inserted themselves into situations time and time again to the detriment of their kids and the competitive process. The system works like a charm where kids keep each others cards and help each other with rulings. If there is an issue there is a rules guy close at hand. Additionally there are many kids that only feel pressure with a parent watching and this becomes a non issue under this system. High school golf in Connecticut has the same system with only coaches out on the course.

Tim,

I'm against that policy. They should have banned the trouble-making parents, not all parents. Parental observation of junior golf is in my opinion a good thing.

[Phil McDade]

Steve:

I don't doubt that many kids think it's "cool" to be on a traveling team. But, we don't let "kids" make a lot of decisions -- some of the important ones, at least -- until they are 18, for many good reasons.

One of the trickiest roles, it seems, for parents when it comes to their kids playing sports is that of balance. I'm sure lots of kids think it's a really neat thing to "make" the traveling soccer team, and play with "peers" who are at their "ability level," and spend months on end traveling across the state or region for weekend tournaments. But I'm not sure how healthy it is for kids in terms of their overall development in all kinds of areas -- not just athletics, but growing up to be semi-normal kids. For some kids, and I've seen this, it may be the best thing to ever happen to them, because it gives them a sense of confidence and accomplishment and belonging. But I also think it's prone to excess, and encourages a kind of specialization and expectation in very young athletes that I'm not sure is great in the long run for their overall development.

[Jim Franklin]

So last year my 5 year old son is playing in his first year of TEE Ball and the coach asks me if I was going to have him tryout for the travel team. I said not a chance, it is only T ball for crying out loud. He tells me that you need to get your son on these teams early or he won't make it. Guess what? If he is good enough, he will make whatever team he wants. I wanted to puke at the thought of travel t ball.

Moving forward to this year, and my 6 year old son can't wait to play in the Father-Son golf tournament at the club. Me too.

[Joe Bausch]

So last year my 5 year old son is playing in his first year of TEE Ball and the coach asks me if I was going to have him tryout for the travel team. I said not a chance, it is only T ball for crying out loud. He tells me that you need to get your son on these teams early or he won't make it. Guess what? If he is good enough, he will make whatever team he wants. I wanted to puke at the thought of travel t ball.

Moving forward to this year, and my 6 year old son can't wait to play in the Father-Son golf tournament at the club. Me too.

A traveling T-ball team?  Wow, I think I now have heard everything!

[Tim Martin]

I think the cause of all this is the parents falling prey to these vultures that peddle travel sports for little children as a way to get a leg up.  It's all based on parental insecurities.  I can assure you of one thing:  it's not the kids who want this. 

DS:

I'm not so sure of that. Of all the kids I know of that play on select, or travel teams, not one would say they don't want to do it. Perhaps when they get older and have done it for awhile. But early on travel teams are cool. You seem to suggest that parents are forcing their kids into select clubs. I just don't see that. Heck, the kid has to try out. If he didn't want to be on the team, it would be pretty easy not to make it.

The Connecticut Section PGA`s junior golf program only allows spectators at two of it`s competitions. The reason for this is that over zealous parents inserted themselves into situations time and time again to the detriment of their kids and the competitive process. The system works like a charm where kids keep each others cards and help each other with rulings. If there is an issue there is a rules guy close at hand. Additionally there are many kids that only feel pressure with a parent watching and this becomes a non issue under this system. High school golf in Connecticut has the same system with only coaches out on the course.

Tim,

I'm against that policy. They should have banned the trouble-making parents, not all parents. Parental observation of junior golf is in my opinion a good thing.

Steve-I will say that I enjoy watching my son play and he always seems glad when I am out there. That said what is your argument that makes parental observation a good thing. I am just wondering because I have mixed feelings on the issue.

[Steve Strasheim]

"I don't doubt that many kids think it's "cool" to be on a traveling team. But, we don't let "kids" make a lot of decisions -- some of the important ones, at least -- until they are 18, for many good reasons."

Phil,

Recently, my 11 year old decided against a select baseball team that has his two best buddies from the neighborhood on it. This team also graduated two famous pro ballers that are featured prominently on their website. We talked about the pros and cons and I told him it was his decision. In my opinion, he wanted to play with his buddies more than he wanted to play all that baseball. And he absolutely loves playing baseball.

Playing with their friends on a team is a major draw to these kids. Something that is sorely lacking in golf.

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