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Colin Macqueen

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Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2012, 11:54:27 PM »
Wully,

Have ye never hit a shank? Have ye never hoselled the hell out of a ba'? Have ye never scared the bejesus out of a playing partner as ye whistle one right past him at two o'clock.    Occhhhhh the game wisnae bein' enjoyed by yours truly using 3, 4 an' 5 irons under these conditions.

Chuckling here.
Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2012, 12:03:14 AM »
The thrill of the shot is making the physical move you need to hit the ball well - and when you get it right it feels terrific. It is the feeling of the ball coming out of the middle of the club and on the trajectory you want.
Whether the ball goes 200 or 300 yards is irrelevant if you get the swing, the contact and the trajectory right.
Arguably the more difficult it is to hit the sweet spot the greater the thrill - the game has lost that unique feeling of a great drive off a persimmon wood and it's a poorer game for that.
Anyone can hit the face of a modern frying pan - and there is a much reduced sense of achievement.
And long gone is the thrill of having a beautiful old wood re-stained and coming back looking like new. I feel sorry for the kids now who will never know that feeling.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2012, 12:03:37 AM »
I enjoy playing beautifully designed and well thought out golf courses. As someone how is a decent player, but who has a tendency to get wild off the tee, I am grateful for the new, more forgiving drivers we have today because it is hard to fully appreciate the layout of a hole from the trees (why are those there in the first place) or from the adjacent fairway.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2012, 12:52:18 AM »
Mike Clayton, you are no spring chicken anymore!  ;) ;D

I completely understand your love of the old beautifully crafted equipment that required an equally well crafted swing that only came with hard work and practice.  And, to add to your enjoyment, you achieve that measure of a master craftsman user of the well crafted equipment.  But, getting to the age thing...  :-\  are you getting a little arthritis, brittle tendons and generally more sensitive to the ravages of the golf swing?  I know you Aussies are a tough lot.  But, at some point, would you agree that the modern equipment is a step forward in easing the rigor and stress that the older equipment required to pursue the effective golf swing, particularly for us aging farts? 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2012, 04:16:29 AM »
Equipment doesn't matter much to me and I do think it is a competitive disadvantage not to keep up with the latest and greatest; specifically drivers and custom fitting.  I know drivers make a difference because about 10 years I started seeing guys drive the ball past me when I knew I hit the ball longer than them.  Now, I don't care so much because I know the money I don't spend on equipment is money I can spend on playing - not that I ever spent a lot of money on equipment.  Like Tom, I was teased for yonks for having a complete disarray of spanners in my bag because I thought they were serviceable.  Once the shafts started to go I made the mistake of looking for a new set.  I bought a new set and hated them even though they were the throw back make of my old Tommy Armour 745s - they just didn't feel right.  I have since bought a used set of Titleist irons which feel like 745s maybe 7 or 8 years ago and will re-shaft them when necessary - once bitten twice shy.  I would like to try out hickories, but I can't see spending money on them.  If I am going to spend money on equipment it will be maintain the status quo or upgrade as I don't believe playing with hickories will bring me any more joy. 

Bottom line Pat, I think you are right.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2012, 05:40:30 AM »
RJ,

I'm not sure the new equipment is any easier on an ageing body. I suspect we are tempted to hit and swing harder because you don't need to be so precise.
I suppose hybrids have made long irons redundant and that can only be helpful as you get older - but I am struggling to get my head around not having a 3 iron. Every golfer should have a 3 iron even if they can't hit it very well.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2012, 06:06:39 AM »
3 iron???  I haven't even carried a 4 iron for what has to be at least 12 years.  The only way I would stick a 3 iron in the bag is as a rescue club from trees, but since I am not going to join a tree lined course it ain't gonna happen.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2012, 06:14:28 AM »
.... my better half went, unbeknownst to me, to the golf club pro shop. There she got them to order two hybrids (17 & 20 degrees) which have now been supplemented with a third. Suffice it to say I had the second best game of my career last Saturday winning the comp. in a canter!

Thank goodness for an informed woman and new, modern equipment!

Cheers Colin

Colin

look after her - she is a 'keeper'.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2012, 06:58:09 AM »
3 iron???  I haven't even carried a 4 iron for what has to be at least 12 years.  The only way I would stick a 3 iron in the bag is as a rescue club from trees, but since I am not going to join a tree lined course it ain't gonna happen.


Sean,  for better or worse. I still carry a 3-iron and a 2-iron.

But now I sense a dilemma of huge proportions.
I think I'm going to have to carry two (2) putters, so which club will have to go ?


Melvyn Morrow

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2012, 07:08:59 AM »
I think the debate on equipment is actually misleading. The equipment is only a means to the end, it is not the game. However it has been pushed to the forefront because the blatant increase in distance that technology has given the ball/clubs. At no time in the history of the game has a line been drawn in the sand stating that ball/club distance development work should cease. That technology will in future be used to improve quality and life expectance of the equipment but not distance.

This simple but important step (IMHO) would have given us more of the great Holes of the past, allowed us to really compare our game to our past Heroes. But no the need to be the best, the greatest prevails, but alas not using the tools of past winners or Champions but using the latest in what technology can give which has greatly increased the distance the ball can travel. Sorry but that’s no test, no possible comparison with the past Champions or come to that your own score say some 20 years ago. Consistency shot dead but to what gain, what advantage? So we can sink a ball in less shots, wow, but who actually generated that score, was it you through improved skill levels or simply down to a little improvement in one’s skill but great advancement in ball/club technology.

Is that the way to play golf, start with the knowledge that your clubs have improved so you should automatically reduce your score, sorry for this guy that is nothing more that blatant cheating, that is the worst cheating of all, conning yourself.

No there is nothing wrong in using any equipment when playing golf, certainly if just knocking about on the course  – although I cannot understand why any self-respecting golfer would, nor do I see the purpose of doing so. But if the idea was to play another, to base the game on the lowest score then surely honour would preclude from claiming victory or a reduced handicap because of your new equipment, certainly if you know it’s through technology that your score has been reduced. I just do not see the sense of achievement as you did not achieve it unaided by modern technology.

So IMHO equipment matters in that it needs to offer golfers a consistency and not a winning edge. The game is no longer a fledgling sport with many small club makers trying to produce workable clubs. We have a defined sets. We just need consistency and longevity in the design and life of these clubs/balls.

Alas I fear that’s a dream as our Governing body is no match for the equipment companies, even if they were interested. It’s all about money and human nature. While there are individuals out there that see nothing wrong in using technology to enhance their handicap or produce victory, the game will continue its slow path to ceasing to be a game based upon skill, thought, planning/navigating a course with all its natural and manmade hazards but continue its path to be a glorified Pitch and Putt game of 8-10,000 yards. Soon we may see airlines jargon re naming the game to that of Puddle-Jumping and strategy will soon be eclipsed by simple distance.

Penal, strategic, strategy, the heart and spirit of the game for centuries being discarded thanks to a moments thrill of hitting a long shot. Seems we are mirroring the decline of our modern society.

The equipment is indeed only a means to the end. It is not the game of golf. You grip a club, however your brain plays the game but for how much longer?  

Melvyn
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:30:52 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2012, 07:23:56 AM »
.... but I am struggling to get my head around not having a 3 iron. Every golfer should have a 3 iron even if they can't hit it very well.

My 3-iron is a go-to club...last round played a wonderful 135 yard bounded with it from under some branches, great feeling that.

Unlike some I see in casual play, I stick to 14.  That means trade-offs, and including clubs I'm not comfortable with or hit wildly inconsistently seems a poor trade-off. 

If I could hit the persimmon driver I have in the car worth a damn I'd play it!
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2012, 07:29:01 AM »
MHM,

Just yesterday, the NYT or the WSJ had an article about a "self-correcting" golf ball being the latest in high tech development.

In that regard I think Mike Clayton has hit the nail on the head.

The greater the challenge, the more rewarding it is to successfully meet that challenge.

If you Diminish the challenge you diminish the thrill of accomplishment.

If the game becomes "easy/easier" where's the lure ?

The article claimed that the self correcting ball would increase participation.
By whom, and how can they draw that conclusion ?

The game rose enormously in popularity when it was very difficult.

Do you want the culture of the game altered by a new breed that only gravitates to the game because the challenge has been diminishe ?


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2012, 07:36:13 AM »
MHM,

The article claimed that the self correcting ball would increase participation.
By whom, and how can they draw that conclusion ?

The game rose enormously in popularity when it was very difficult.

Do you want the culture of the game altered by a new breed that only gravitates to the game because the challenge has been diminishe ?



and those that pick up the game because of a "self correcting ball", are they going to quit when it gets windy?
Golf doesn't need players who pick it up because it's "easy"
(by the way, the Polara self correcting ball has been around since the 70's)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Melvyn Morrow

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2012, 07:40:41 AM »
Pat

We are not meeting the challenge we are running sorry riding away as fast as we can from actual intercourse with the game of golf. Technology is no challenge, controlling it is. Give way to using aids and self-correcting equipment, then what the Hell is the point of bothering to play golf.

It’s this sit on your backside and do little that is ruling the game while counting the money. The game is in hibernation, it’s being killed before our eyes and many embrace the use of technology to speed up that end.

Sorry mate the challenge is in playing the game unaided with the basics, because its you the individual that plays the game which for most golfers comes from the heart. Looks like the hearts are now all on pacemakers.

Why do golfers not see the damage this is doing to the game?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:59:24 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2012, 07:54:05 AM »
The thrill of the shot is making the physical move you need to hit the ball well - and when you get it right it feels terrific. It is the feeling of the ball coming out of the middle of the club and on the trajectory you want.
Whether the ball goes 200 or 300 yards is irrelevant if you get the swing, the contact and the trajectory right.
Arguably the more difficult it is to hit the sweet spot the greater the thrill - the game has lost that unique feeling of a great drive off a persimmon wood and it's a poorer game for that.

WINNER!!!

I've only played hickories for a month now, but I'm already a cultish fan, trying to convert anyone who will listen.  You just described the greatest joy of the game - that feeling of a pure shot.  The shorter distance doesn't matter.  

Of course, pulling off a shot you visualized is still thrilling with modern equipment, but there is something special about the feeling when achieved with hickories.  I'm not sure if it's the few extra milliseconds of contact or the vibrations through the shaft, but it's a sensation that's been missing since the shift from persimmon 15-20 years ago.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2012, 08:07:22 AM »

Kevin

Hickory still gives the golfer all the joys that the game can give. It’s about mastering the club, game and course or at least working with them, and boy are the sweet shots great. Yet for me the best is what Hickory do for the course, how they bring the course and design not just into play but waken up ones senses. Hickory is the true game of golf that made it so popular and its coming back as golfer get unhappy with this game of ever long shots without much thought, skill or planning.

Melvyn

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2012, 08:29:43 AM »
I think it is selfish to play with equipment that does not fit the mores of your playing partners.  I love playing with hickories but would greatly disrupt the dynamic of my group of friends if I suddenly declared they were my clubs of choice.  It would be no different than suddenly playing left handed.  This is all fine if your goal as a golfer is to maximize YOUR fun.  Good for you, play alone.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2012, 08:40:09 AM »
3 iron???  I haven't even carried a 4 iron for what has to be at least 12 years.  The only way I would stick a 3 iron in the bag is as a rescue club from trees, but since I am not going to join a tree lined course it ain't gonna happen.


Sean,  for better or worse. I still carry a 3-iron and a 2-iron.

But now I sense a dilemma of huge proportions.
I think I'm going to have to carry two (2) putters, so which club will have to go ?


Pat

My dilemma is more about the weight on my back and more generally laziness.  I have been carrying 11 clubs (at most) for more than decade.  It probably started when clubs broke and I didn't replace them.  I made a conscious effort to reduce the clubs when I couldn't find my 7 iron for a few months.  It turned out my daughter had a thing about that club and secretly kept it under her bed.  I still don't carry a 7 iron. 

I suspect your dilemma is about getting the most out of your bag - tee hee.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2012, 09:13:11 AM »
I think it is selfish to play with equipment that does not fit the mores of your playing partners.  I love playing with hickories but would greatly disrupt the dynamic of my group of friends if I suddenly declared they were my clubs of choice.  It would be no different than suddenly playing left handed.  This is all fine if your goal as a golfer is to maximize YOUR fun.  Good for you, play alone.
I'm not sure I follow this logic.  I understand that the social aspects of the game are of equal importance to my personal enjoyment.  But I don't understand why your think there is some mutual exclusivity involved.

Why would your dynamic be thrown off?  Are your friends too used to your handicap being at one level that they couldn't process a higher "hickory-only" handicap?  Is starting a hole from a different tee such a huge impediment that you couldn't possibly be sociable?  I play with a number of older gentlemen at my club. We start holes 20 yards apart, but still walk the last 300-400 yards together.  I'm really unclear on what the issue is.

Why is a "mixed" playing group of hickories / steels improper?  How is it any different from a shorter hitter playing with a bomber? Or me sticking with my antiquated 8 year old 3 wood when my buddy gets his new RBZ?

I understand sacrificing my personal enjoyment for the group at times.  I prefer to walk, but if my partner hurts his knee on Saturday, I'm riding with him on Sunday.  But how does that equate to using different equipment?

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2012, 09:23:58 AM »

Smacking it with a persimmon wood is such a better feeling than hitting those 460ccs of today but those days are pretty much over which is a shame.

Brian,

Why do those days have to be over?

Is it solely the obsession with score and maintaining an expectation of performance?  It sounds like you're willing to sacrifice the feeling and experience of persimmon, but why?  Does your enjoyment of golf come from the experiences of hitting shots or from a number?

Understand, I'm not judging either way - everyone has their own relationship with the game.  But one of the things I loved most about going to hickories was that I felt liberated from performance expectations and focused more on shotmaking and those little joys like the feeling of a perfectly struck wood.  

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2012, 09:26:01 AM »
Kevin,

My friends want to beat me knowing that I gave them my best game possible.  If I suddenly become "Mr. Excuse" they lose out on the rare satisfaction that can only be achieved through victory of a fair hard fought battle.  I, and most of my friends, live for that feeling.

To me it would be like if my local barber decided to wear an eye patch while working.  He may occasionally perform as well as he did with two eyes but when he nips my left ear I am not interested in his excuse.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2012, 09:33:02 AM »
Kevin,

My friends want to beat me knowing that I gave them my best game possible.  If I suddenly become "Mr. Excuse" they lose out on the rare satisfaction that can only be achieved through victory of a fair hard fought battle.  I, and most of my friends, live for that feeling.

To me it would be like if my local barber decided to wear an eye patch while working.  He may occasionally perform as well as he did with two eyes but when he nips my left ear I am not interested in his excuse.

 ;D ;D ;D

Brent Hutto

Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2012, 09:35:27 AM »
The ideal game of golf is one where no strokes given or taken are needed and both players play from the same tees. With my usual game an my usual (modern) clubs I don't get to experience that ideal very often. Usually I'm getting at least a few strokes, often quite a few. And when playing with certain young "flat bellies" it really makes the most sense for me to be up one or two sets of tees rather than trying to play a 6,900 yard course with the 160-yard 5-iron shots and 200-yard drives.

I had a blast recently playing a dozen rounds with 60+ year old blade irons and persimmon woods. Really some of the most fun I've had at golf in quite a while. As long as I play by myself.

But the unfortunate fact is I moved up one set of tees (from "mens" to "senior" at my club) and still registered a handicap 2-3 strokes higher than what I get playing the regular tees with modern clubs. So now anyone who would have played from the same tees and given me six or eight strokes would have to play one set longer than myself and still give me those strokes to have any kind of game at all. Or I could move back to the mens tees and now I need ten, eleven, twelve to have a chance.

So I'm back with the moderns. There's also the fact I have a trip to England coming up in a few months and will be playing at Ganton and Notts, neither of which is going to be a lot of fun if I add another 10-15-20 yards to my approach shots on courses that already play pretty long and tough. So by myself, in isolation, playing a suitable course the old gear is more fun. Playing a game with others on any course I want to play it's the modern clubs all the way.

OTOH, if I had a spare set of persimmons and blades I'd challenge any of my usual partners to play our usual game head to head with the old gear. That would be the most fun of all, I think. But not if the course is 6,700 yards!

Kevin,

I'd say for me it's not an "obsession with score" as left to my own devices I'd almost never even keep a stroke-play score. It's more like an obsession about the limits of handicapping combined with generally being the weakest player in any twosome, threesome or foursome I encounter.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:38:16 AM by Brent Hutto »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2012, 09:38:01 AM »

Smacking it with a persimmon wood is such a better feeling than hitting those 460ccs of today but those days are pretty much over which is a shame.

Brian,

Why do those days have to be over?

Is it solely the obsession with score and maintaining an expectation of performance?  It sounds like you're willing to sacrifice the feeling and experience of persimmon, but why?  Does your enjoyment of golf come from the experiences of hitting shots or from a number?

Understand, I'm not judging either way - everyone has their own relationship with the game.  But one of the things I loved most about going to hickories was that I felt liberated from performance expectations and focused more on shotmaking and those little joys like the feeling of a perfectly struck wood.  

Kevin-Just wondering if there are ever any friendly wagers with your companions and if so does it make a difference in what type of equipment you play?  

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I have a new theory. Equipment doesn't matter when it comes to
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2012, 09:51:37 AM »
The thrill of the shot is making the physical move you need to hit the ball well - and when you get it right it feels terrific. It is the feeling of the ball coming out of the middle of the club and on the trajectory you want.
Whether the ball goes 200 or 300 yards is irrelevant if you get the swing, the contact and the trajectory right.
Arguably the more difficult it is to hit the sweet spot the greater the thrill - the game has lost that unique feeling of a great drive off a persimmon wood and it's a poorer game for that.
Anyone can hit the face of a modern frying pan - and there is a much reduced sense of achievement.
And long gone is the thrill of having a beautiful old wood re-stained and coming back looking like new. I feel sorry for the kids now who will never know that feeling.

Or wrapping a wood club yourself?   I always loved doing that and getting it just right and then the smell of the shellac.........

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