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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #375 on: April 25, 2012, 03:54:17 PM »
Phil, common man, you have to put on your 60s establishment mentality thinking cap on.  I am one of those agent provocateurs placed in the crowd to blend in and make obvious socialist utterances.  ;)  Even our honorable Governor gave fair warning and told you that was the 'considered plan' on the recorded fake Koch Brother call, where he admitted they were considering placing 'some trouble makers in the crowd', presumably to create public outrage over the disruption they could provoke, and cast a counter campaign against the masses who dissent against this great ALEC trained savior governor.  We are all just "tools" in the ALEC tool box.  Did you hear the one about the fake candiates?  ::)



No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #376 on: April 25, 2012, 03:54:34 PM »
This thread was (almost) worth it for that joke alone. :D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #377 on: April 25, 2012, 04:24:57 PM »

... When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.


I tried to decide for myself but can't. Please help. If Buffet makes another dollar, he pays a smaller portion of that dollar in tax than his secretary does on her extra dollar.

Craig,

Not on earned ordinary income such as salary.

And not if they both keep an investment for a year and realize a gain on it.

There are two separate tax rates, both applied universally.

One is on ordinary income and the other is on capital gains income.

You CAN'T equate the two, they're as different as night and day

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #378 on: April 25, 2012, 04:53:35 PM »
Hey GCA gang, just so you all know, I just had my invited phone conversation with Vinnie.  He is the real deal!!!

How do we know you're the real deal?

All of this retired cop stuff -- hah! Where's the evidence?

See this (seventh paragraph):

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-26-wisconsin-officers_N.htm

Don't believe everything you read in USA Today!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #379 on: April 25, 2012, 05:45:07 PM »

Craig,

Not on earned ordinary income such as salary.

And not if they both keep an investment for a year and realize a gain on it.

There are two separate tax rates, both applied universally.

One is on ordinary income and the other is on capital gains income.

You CAN'T equate the two, they're as different as night and day


Pat,
I know that. Buffet's point was that the effective overall tax rate that he paid to the federal government was less than his secretary's and that a tax system which permits that - no matter how he obtains his income, it's still income he can use - is inherently unfair and should be reformed.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #380 on: April 25, 2012, 06:22:09 PM »
We could probably get a similar increase in revenue from legalizing and taxing marijuana with the benefit of reduced crime and significant savings on jail expense, and without the potential hit to the economy.  But that would make too much sense and not pander to the right voter demographic...    
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #381 on: April 25, 2012, 07:52:22 PM »
We could probably get a similar increase in revenue from legalizing and taxing marijuana with the benefit of reduced crime and significant savings on jail expense, and without the potential hit to the economy.  But that would make too much sense and not pander to the right voter demographic...    

+100

We would also have massive savings for police departments, DEA, etc...much less putting all those drug dealers out of business.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #382 on: April 25, 2012, 10:46:22 PM »

Craig,

Not on earned ordinary income such as salary.

And not if they both keep an investment for a year and realize a gain on it.

There are two separate tax rates, both applied universally.

One is on ordinary income and the other is on capital gains income.

You CAN'T equate the two, they're as different as night and day


Pat,
I know that. Buffet's point was that the effective overall tax rate that he paid to the federal government was less than his secretary's and that a tax system which permits that - no matter how he obtains his income, it's still income he can use - is inherently unfair and should be reformed.

It's not inherently unfair.

Buffet puts his money at risk before he receives any return, and, he is charged with ordinary income if there's a return on his investment and he pays a lower capital gains tax ONLY when he sells his investment, whereas there is no risk involved in receiving a salary salary.

You can't equalize two vastly unequal methods of earnings by simply taxing them the same, for if you do so, without a premium or incentive, who will risk their capital ?

Why would anyone invest by risking their capital ?

Do you remember when they placed an additional luxury tax on yachts and airplanes.
They almost destroyed two industries and put thousands out of work.

Just raising taxes won't solve the problem.
You have to cut spending and reduce the deficit with dedicated revenue, not promises.

Wouldn't they be better off investing in bonds, CD's and other instruments where risk is minimized compared to venture capital ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #383 on: April 25, 2012, 10:49:16 PM »
We could probably get a similar increase in revenue from legalizing and taxing marijuana with the benefit of reduced crime and significant savings on jail expense, and without the potential hit to the economy.  But that would make too much sense and not pander to the right voter demographic...  

Jud,

Why not include coke, heroin, LSD, Peyote and other drugs.

You'd Raise more tax revenue and erode the fabric of the nation at the same time.
 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #384 on: April 25, 2012, 11:20:48 PM »
Peyote?  Have you been watching F Troop again?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #385 on: April 26, 2012, 12:11:28 AM »


Pat, take a look at this graph of historical capital gains tax treatments.  Could you tell me when thirst for investment and capital gains profits, waned, and when there was no investment economic incentive to put money to work?  Can you tell me when these years on the graph had equal tax treatments of capital gains income with ordinary income, and there weren't favored lower than ordinary income?  Never?

Also, can you tell me when the term irrational exuberance was cautioned, and how that worked out for a crescendo of so-called 'investment' incentivized activity, and what the consequences of all that was for our overall economic well-being as a nation?  Hint hint, something to do with Sept 2008, greed, no cop on the beat, and yes, the lowest cap gains rate in history in place for 7 years, which currently remains at said low levels. 

I was wondering Pat, if you could look at the graph and tell me at what point in the cap gains rate history, the great outsource and moving of invested capital from formerly American based companies occurred most?  Could it be that despite the lowering of the cap gains rate to their historical lowest, that greed for more and more, at the expense of American jobs, and tax base on these invested capitalized companies still turned their backs on the vast majority of their own people in search of higher and higher profits, and our unpaid-for tax breaks and lowering of rates that added to our debt, just were as always, not good enough for the greedsters?

Now we hear the same old same old; 'raise our taxes and we'll flee, sit on our wealth, and clip coupons'.  We have heard it before, dire warnings, etc., and in earlier years when the warnings were novel, we believed it may be so.  But then we learned it was a canard, and greed for more retained wealth via tax favoritism will not be made to work for the middle class working families needing jobs and decent wages from capital invested in companies in flight, no matter what and how low the taxes become. 

So why not go back to rates where economic activity was certainly no worse, and count on greedy and profit thirsty people will invest at any rate, literally.  They always have bought and traded stocks, built buildings, opened businesses, at all these cap gains rate, and it is hard to imagine greed and profit motive will take a sabbatical for an increase of 4-5% increased tax rates, cap gains or ordinary.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #386 on: April 26, 2012, 02:11:12 AM »

Craig,

Not on earned ordinary income such as salary.

And not if they both keep an investment for a year and realize a gain on it.

There are two separate tax rates, both applied universally.

One is on ordinary income and the other is on capital gains income.

You CAN'T equate the two, they're as different as night and day


Pat,
I know that. Buffet's point was that the effective overall tax rate that he paid to the federal government was less than his secretary's and that a tax system which permits that - no matter how he obtains his income, it's still income he can use - is inherently unfair and should be reformed.

It's not inherently unfair.

Buffet puts his money at risk before he receives any return, and, he is charged with ordinary income if there's a return on his investment and he pays a lower capital gains tax ONLY when he sells his investment, whereas there is no risk involved in receiving a salary salary.

You can't equalize two vastly unequal methods of earnings by simply taxing them the same, for if you do so, without a premium or incentive, who will risk their capital ?

Why would anyone invest by risking their capital ?

Do you remember when they placed an additional luxury tax on yachts and airplanes.
They almost destroyed two industries and put thousands out of work.

Just raising taxes won't solve the problem.
You have to cut spending and reduce the deficit with dedicated revenue, not promises.

Wouldn't they be better off investing in bonds, CD's and other instruments where risk is minimized compared to venture capital ?


Patrick

While a tax break is always welcome for any reason, I invest capital in schemes which I think stand a good chance to make money.  Is there any better reason to invest?  I am nowhere near as aggressive as many venture capitalists, but I expect these guys also invest to make money.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark_F

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #387 on: April 26, 2012, 04:19:49 AM »
So it's that simple, just manufacture overseas and stock prices automatically go up ? 
Of course not.  Where did I say that? Do you think Apple's share price would be as high as it currently trades if it manufactured everything in the USA?

But you said "the money from offshore operations directs more into the pockets of the top of American Society" and I want to know how that "money" gets from offshore back into America ? 
Fed Ex or UPS, I imagine. 

First of all, if there were more in revenue from corporate taxes the government would spend it
Why, who is the USA going to attack now?   Aren't you leaving Iran to Israel, because you have maxed out the credit card?

not pay down the debt.
Then why don't you hold your political representatives to account, instead of moaning like a bitch? Why don't you actually employ that democracy you seem so keen on shoving on every other country?

As to "C" corporations, are their any that you are aware of that are evading taxes ?
GE. Bank of America, who received a generous $336 billion in taxpayer bailouts in 2009, then a year later, made $4.4 billion in profits, and paid no tax. Boeing, Citicorp, Exxon Mobil, Pfizer, News Corporation. Want me to go on?

Is it or is it not true that 18,857 US companies keep a post office box in one five-storey building in the Cayman Islands?

If public companies pay more taxes, won't they increase the price of their goods and services to the American people ?
Why should they do that?  Do they think they have a right to make a specific amount of profit regardless?   
 
For a guy who doesn't live in America you sure know exactly how to fix all of our financial problems
That's because I don't think like an American. You will find that everyone else who doesn't think like an American knows just as much as I do.

Have Senators and Congressmen contacted you to solicit your advice on how to quickly solve all of our financial problems ?
No, but if you pass on my email address to the ones you meet, I will happily tell them how to fix things, free of charge.

Is not the corporate tax in America the second highest in all the world.
Not when no one pays it.

In the mid 1950s, corporation tax was 30% of federal revenue.  Now it is just 6.6%.  Care to explain?

Amongst other reasons, did it ever occur to you that companies go overseas because the corporate tax environment in America is so hostile?
Why, because the Government actually believes that companies should contribute to the cost of education of their employees, contribute to the building of the roads, ports and other infrastructure they need to do business?  Contribute to the cost of running the security services, police, fire and other emergency services they may need?

Nasty old Government.





Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #388 on: April 26, 2012, 06:30:19 AM »


Is this another key Member of The R&A? Or a survivor of 18 Holes from The Castle Course, still not quite over the experience?

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #389 on: April 26, 2012, 06:38:27 AM »
Actually Melvyn,

He looks just like Old Tom Morris going off your avater!!

Colin

"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #390 on: April 26, 2012, 07:50:50 AM »
 ::) ::) :P ::) :P

Good luck trusting the government to redistribute......lol.    How many here crying about the robber barons  actually tried to build something that needed permits, inspections etc . You quickly find the process is not only morally bankrupt, but criminally corrupt.  So be careful thinking our political leaders will set us free . The mob only charged 5% protection fees, it looks like a bargain to me.

Let's turn this site into a haves vs have nots, Dems vs Repubs,  conservatives vs liberals, good strategy !    It's really working right now .  Just wait and see how this next election polarizes us even further, making the politicos even stronger. Divide and conquer has always been the mantra, and it works all the time.

V.  Kmetz.   If you ever saw Tom Paul play golf, you would quickly recognize his golf IQ is off the charts. He was a real overachiever, which is the highest compliment I know relative to playing the game.   Also , the next time I play Pine Valley or Seminole  I'll be judged more on my score than my net worth. 


Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #391 on: April 26, 2012, 08:15:13 AM »
So it's that simple, just manufacture overseas and stock prices automatically go up ? 
Of course not.  Where did I say that? Do you think Apple's share price would be as high as it currently trades if it manufactured everything in the USA?

But you said "the money from offshore operations directs more into the pockets of the top of American Society" and I want to know how that "money" gets from offshore back into America ? 
Fed Ex or UPS, I imagine. 

First of all, if there were more in revenue from corporate taxes the government would spend it
Why, who is the USA going to attack now?   Aren't you leaving Iran to Israel, because you have maxed out the credit card?

not pay down the debt.
Then why don't you hold your political representatives to account, instead of moaning like a bitch? Why don't you actually employ that democracy you seem so keen on shoving on every other country?

As to "C" corporations, are their any that you are aware of that are evading taxes ?
GE. Bank of America, who received a generous $336 billion in taxpayer bailouts in 2009, then a year later, made $4.4 billion in profits, and paid no tax. Boeing, Citicorp, Exxon Mobil, Pfizer, News Corporation. Want me to go on?

Is it or is it not true that 18,857 US companies keep a post office box in one five-storey building in the Cayman Islands?

If public companies pay more taxes, won't they increase the price of their goods and services to the American people ?
Why should they do that?  Do they think they have a right to make a specific amount of profit regardless?   
 
For a guy who doesn't live in America you sure know exactly how to fix all of our financial problems
That's because I don't think like an American. You will find that everyone else who doesn't think like an American knows just as much as I do.

Have Senators and Congressmen contacted you to solicit your advice on how to quickly solve all of our financial problems ?
No, but if you pass on my email address to the ones you meet, I will happily tell them how to fix things, free of charge.

Is not the corporate tax in America the second highest in all the world.
Not when no one pays it.

In the mid 1950s, corporation tax was 30% of federal revenue.  Now it is just 6.6%.  Care to explain?

Amongst other reasons, did it ever occur to you that companies go overseas because the corporate tax environment in America is so hostile?
Why, because the Government actually believes that companies should contribute to the cost of education of their employees, contribute to the building of the roads, ports and other infrastructure they need to do business?  Contribute to the cost of running the security services, police, fire and other emergency services they may need?

Nasty old Government.


A partial explanation of why the $US is now the Australian dollar's bitch... Frankly, the only hope for the US in terms of adding well-paid jobs that don't involve new ways to legally steal money is to let the dollar sink so low that it revives the manufacturing industry in the US... When you visit the Gap in 2024 and all the T-Shirts say "Made in the USA" on the collar, you'll know we've hit rock bottom.
Next!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #392 on: April 26, 2012, 08:33:23 AM »
We could probably get a similar increase in revenue from legalizing and taxing marijuana with the benefit of reduced crime and significant savings on jail expense, and without the potential hit to the economy.  But that would make too much sense and not pander to the right voter demographic...  

Jud,

Why not include coke, heroin, LSD, Peyote and other drugs.

You'd Raise more tax revenue and erode the fabric of the nation at the same time.
 

Patrick,

What's the annual tab for police and housing non-violent drug offenders in prison?  As of 2010 30% of the adult population admitted to being at least occasional illegal drug users.  The drug war is lost my friend.  Time to end prohibition and tax the sh*t out of it....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #393 on: April 26, 2012, 10:51:39 AM »
Jud:

I'd be careful -- with those kinds of views, you're likely to be reported to your employer.

 ;)

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #394 on: April 26, 2012, 02:20:52 PM »

Why should I pay additional dollars to pay for the reckless actions of others [/b][/size][/color]


You do have to pay for the reckless acts of others - that of free market abusers.  At some level you are paying for the reckless loaning of money to folks who couldn't afford a home, for the reckless drilling of oil in the gulf, for the reckless declaration of war on other countries for dishonest reasons, for the reckless investments in mortgage backed securities of our banks, for the reckless practices of greedy doctors who are ordering unnecessary procedures on patients, for the reckless way in which lawyers encourage lawsuits, etc. These types of reckless behavior are done by people with money and therefore power and make up a MUCH bigger percentage of waste than ENTITLEMENTS for the middle or lower class. And, they have all made the wealthy wealthier and the poor poorer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #395 on: April 26, 2012, 02:29:44 PM »

Why should I pay additional dollars to pay for the reckless actions of others [/b][/size][/color]


You do have to pay for the reckless acts of others - that of free market abusers.  At some level you are paying for the reckless loaning of money to folks who couldn't afford a home, for the reckless drilling of oil in the gulf, for the reckless declaration of war on other countries for dishonest reasons, for the reckless investments in mortgage backed securities of our banks, for the reckless practices of greedy doctors who are ordering unnecessary procedures on patients, for the reckless way in which lawyers encourage lawsuits, etc. These types of reckless behavior are done by people with money and therefore power and make up a MUCH bigger percentage of waste than ENTITLEMENTS for the middle or lower class. And, they have all made the wealthy wealthier and the poor poorer.

Will

Yes, the rich waste more than anybody and I include the government as rich.  However, that is best argument to lower taxes. 

In theory, I am far from anti-tax.  In practice I am about as anti-tax as it gets because I have an inclining of how much tax money is wasted and not just on the under-classes - also for the rich.  Show me a war that was fought for the under-classes. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #396 on: April 26, 2012, 02:33:51 PM »
The government is the least efficient use of capital, period...If you want to throw money away there are much more enjoyable ways to do it...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:36:54 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #397 on: April 26, 2012, 02:57:01 PM »
The government is the least efficient use of capital, period...If you want to throw money away there are much more enjoyable ways to do it...

Less efficient than Bear Stearns?  Really?

More enjoyable ways...yes?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #398 on: April 26, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »
The government had full authority to police Bear Stearns, Lehman, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Standard & Poors and Moodys and failed to do so.  Oh yeah, lack of resources and tax dollars.... :-\
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:26:46 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #399 on: April 26, 2012, 03:29:14 PM »
The government is the least efficient use of capital, period...If you want to throw money away there are much more enjoyable ways to do it...

The money the goverment spends, whether directly, like the purchase of fighter aircraft, or new roads, or indirectly, such as paying someone's doctor to perform some procedure, or to someone's landlord as a rent subsidy, is never really "wasted."  It always ends up in someone's pocket.  

I think that "wasted" is a matter of perspective.  For the pacivist, any military spending is a waste.  For the machinists, enginers, designers, managers, salesmen and shareholders of Boeing or Martin Marietta, it is salaries and revenues and profits and dividends.  There is no waste.

For some, Social Security payments or food stamps are a waste.  But to the companies whose products are purchased by the citizens who recieve the payments, that is revenue.  Food companies, Miller Brewing, Phillip Morris, Target, Wal-Mart, all are recipients of "wastefully" spent tax dollars.  

Even the characters who are ripping off Medicare with bogus billing schemes.  They get paid, and presumably do something with the money, buying Cadillacs or houses, or blowing it in a Las Vegas casino.  The money is going somewhere boys!
 
I guesss maybe the complaint is that there's not enough flowing to us!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:40:07 PM by Paul OConnor »