Is it even worth it?

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

Put a sock in it.  I didn't accuse Patrick of being racist, nor did I dismiss the wealth of minorities.  It was Patrick who boldly stated that wealth is due to "intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice."  Clearly there is much more to it it than that. You stated there is a disparity.  So why?

Can't tell if you want me to answer or not, but your words cannot defend themselves. Patrick's can, and he actually said, "V Kmetz characterizes everyone who has acquired wealth as having done so either criminally, by cheating or through "schemes", completely DISMISSING factors such as intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice." So as you can see, he's saying they are factors that must not be ignored, not the sole factors. Now I'll butt out of that as I know Patrick is more than capable of defending himself.

As for the question you asked of me, it would do a disservice to those reading and inputting if I tried to tackle that one on my own. Hundreds of years of history are at play, and I'm just not smart enough to provide an adequate answer or solution to the problem.

[V. Kmetz]

Mark,

I thought I was done but this is toooooo juicy.

While I'm not claiming you as a fan or a detractor, you're certainly getting to one big issue with these macro-schemes, wild assertions and big pronouncements that have been made in praise of the American capitalist model.

And don't dare tread in the area of WHY illegal immigration prospers in this country; people don't think that Dole, American Foods and the labyrinth subsidiaries of ConAgra (among others) have employed several million undocumented Mexican workers for years at the "point of pick" in the alfalfa fields, the orange groves, and a multitude of other produce concerns...to say nothing of the livestock slaughterhouses in the Midwest and Great Plains.  Who do they think populates the landscape laborer set in most suburban areas; who builds them nice stone walls, plantings, mows the lawn and cleans the gutter.  It may say Jeremy's Landscaping on the truck, but its all Joses and Juans who do the work.

Until about 10 years ago, the "club set" was staffed with 60-75% undocumenteds, but with post 9-11 hysteria about this new "threat" and a few local scares, the Met clubs got their shit together and sponsored any full-time waiter, waitress, line cook, super's crewman through the entire process on the up and up, and now only the most unprofiled dishwashers are in that condition.

But people like their steak  and their lawns "chop-chop" and enjoy having 20 Costcos, BJs, Walmarts, in their state as well as a McDonald's every par 5 away.  If we gonna have guns and butter, bread and circuses, we gonna have bananas 24 -7 too, but nobody knows where it comes from; it's just there and they have the money to purchase it. Screw the people who make it, we don't even know them, someone will have to do it.


cheers

vk

[Mark_F]

Hundreds of years of history are at play, and I'm just not smart enough to provide an adequate answer or solution to the problem.

Alex,

Hundreds of years and the USA is still the most inequitable society on earth?  Maybe it would be easier if you just shot all those poor Mexicans crossing the Rio Grande.  It is a vastly preferable method of extinction than being ground into poverty trying to find the American Dream.

Mark,

I thought I was done but this is toooooo juicy.

While I'm not claiming you as a fan or a detractor, you're certainly getting to one big issue with these macro-schemes, wild assertions and big pronouncements that have been made in praise of the American capitalist model.

Vk,

I find it vastly amusing that Patrick is only too willing to label you a tax dodger, rail against the entitlement culture you apparently support, then defend Tom Paul for getting a SSI check because he has paid into the system. 

The American capitalist model may have been worthy at one time, but sadly, since the Reagan era, it has been corrupted by rapacious, sociopathic doppelgangers only too willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of millions of Americans to further enrich themselves. 

But I guess that's what happens when you elect B grade actors, adulterous perjurers and coke snorting drunks to the highest office in the land.

[Mike Sweeney]

Patrick,

Black and Hispanic Americans make up 12 and 16% respectively the population of the USA.  85% of the private wealth of the USA is held by 20% of the population.  Black and Hispanics do not comprise their relative percentage of that wealth, which means that either they don't possess those factors you cite, or there are other factors involved in becoming rich.

Mark,

You probably need to check your data, as the Hispanic market has made huge strides over the past decade. The Pew Study that I think you cited for Net Worth/Wealth is very misleading as it does not count the $30 billion per year that is sent back overseas out of the U.S. to support their Hispanic families back home. Keep that money here in the USA in home equity and those numbers in the Pew Study change.

We do qualitative research with Fortune 2000 style brands and EVERY major brand wants to better understand the Hispanic market now. Ten years ago, not so much.

_________________________

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/research/

Hispanic Spending Power

Hispanic spending power in the United States is leading the way, and predicted to only increase in the coming years. In 1990, according to a 2006 University of Georgia study, Hispanic spending power stood at $200 billion a year. In 2007 Hispanic spending power stood at $860 billion a year according to that same study. In 2011, Hispanic spending power is estimated at $1.2 trillion a year according to the U.S. Census. By 2010, Hispanic spending power is expected to represent 11% of the total spending power of the US population according to HispanTelligence. (Please note, these figures do not include the buying power of undocumented immigrants.)


Hispanic Remittances To Latin America

It is estimated, Hispanics send over $30 billion a year to their families in Latin America.


Hispanic Wealth

Hispanic wealth is growing at all levels. According to the US Census Bureau, 16.5% of Hispanics made over $100,000 a year in 2000. In 1995, 11.5% of Hispanics made over $100,000 a year.


45% of affluent Hispanic households are concentrated in New York City, Los Angeles, Houston, Miami, and Chicago.


25% of Hispanics control 93% of the US Hispanic market wealth.

_____________________________________

In terms of opportunity, assuming you share the American dream that college is the path to a better life, the Hispanic market dominates the growth of college enrollment recently. From a different Pew Study:

"However, these macroeconomic conditions cannot fully explain why Hispanic enrollments grew so much more from 2009 to 2010 than did the enrollments of other racial and economic groups. "

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/08/25/hispanic-college-enrollment-spikes-narrowing-gaps-with-other-groups/

[Mark_F]

Thanks Mike, that's very interesting.

In 1990, according to a 2006 University of Georgia study, Hispanic spending power stood at $200 billion a year. In 2007 Hispanic spending power stood at $860 billion a year according to that same study.

That's some increase!

[Mike Sweeney]

Thanks Mike, that's very interesting.

In 1990, according to a 2006 University of Georgia study, Hispanic spending power stood at $200 billion a year. In 2007 Hispanic spending power stood at $860 billion a year according to that same study.

That's some increase!

Mark,

Tying this back to the original concept, Tom Paul and the WASP formation of many early golf clubs and many other establishments in the early 1900's.

I sent this article to Tom Paul a few weeks ago: "Class Warfare -Harvard declared its distrust of the Boston College degree, the Jesuits claimed religious discrimination. They may have been right, but there was more to it."

http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/winter_2012/features/class-warfare.html

The gist of the article is that the WASP of Harvard Law School discriminated against the Irish Catholic graduates of Boston College around the turn of the century and cited the curriculum, lack of, as the reason that they were not admitted. It spurred Boston College to:

* improve their curriculum for undergraduates
* start Boston College Law School

Well, no President's but many from BC and BC Law are in national politics (John Kerry, Tip O'Neil) and they pretty much run a large part of Boston politics, for better or worse is a different conversation. 

The Jews had to go through the same process, women too. The Black population is still going through it with Hispanics.

Restating an earlier point, everyone of those ethnic groups are now represented on the U.S. Supreme Court. The only group currently missing on The Supreme Court are WASP !!

Did Harvard Law School make a mistake in the early 1900's by "discriminating" against BC graduates? I don't think so. They did not give it away and it made people and institutions improve. The process may be ugly when it is happening here in the U.S. It is far from perfect but I personally don't see a better system out there right now, warts and all.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mike I take it you haven't read The Spirit Level.   American is growing more unequal not less. It leads the world in inequality and it leads the world in social problems. And here's the thing, the States where inequality is greatest are also the ones where social problems are greatest.  The book shows a clear correlation in these two throughout the developed world.   Showing how Hispanic wealth has grown in a boom time doesn't even address Blacks (referenced by Mark)  and other poor parts of society. 


http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Spirit-Level-Societies-Almost/dp/1846140390 


The question for the future is what do we do about it?


Anyway discussing Hispanics is nothing but a diversion from the subject. No?

[Jud_T]

I've been so moved by this discussion that I'm considering giving my club membership to my gardener.  He doesn't play golf or have any interest really, but I feel it's the right thing to do and it would help me sleep better at night.

I'm considering tossing my career as a financial markets player who facilitates the 1% making financial transactions and helps the corrupt government finance it's spiraling debt and rich investors get richer aside and organizing a rent party for migrant workers featuring LMFAO.

I'm considering starting a caddie union.

I'm considering donating to the American Socialist Party.

I'm considering fighting on the front lines of BOTH the Isreali and Palestinian causes.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

I....might....be.......having.........a........spiritual...............awakening.............!!

......




Oops, it was just gas.   Gotta lay off the spicy food.....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Is it worth it – yes most certainly if you feel you have a valid point.

Good to see this topic has not been deleted. Honest comments are worthy of consideration

[Dan Herrmann]

Back to GCA - A guy like Tom that has had access to the inner workings of some of our greatest golf courses has MUCH, MUCH more information related to GCA compared to somebody like me, who didn't set foot on a decent club till my late-20's.   And that's A-OK with me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Ferguson,

Your inference convinces me that you're too dumb and ignorant to understand any explanation I might offer.

Oh, wait, what was that you alluded to ...... "other factors" ?

Take your time and try to figure it out.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Mike, that's very interesting.

In 1990, according to a 2006 University of Georgia study, Hispanic spending power stood at $200 billion a year. In 2007 Hispanic spending power stood at $860 billion a year according to that same study.

That's some increase!

It's interesting that sales of salsa passed ketchup years ago. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hundreds of years and the USA is still the most inequitable society on earth?  Maybe it would be easier if you just shot all those poor Mexicans crossing the Rio Grande.  It is a vastly preferable method of extinction than being ground into poverty trying to find the American Dream.


Then why do millions of immigrants, legal and illegal stream to America seeking a better life ?

Vk,

I find it vastly amusing that Patrick is only too willing to label you a tax dodger, rail against the entitlement culture you apparently support, then defend Tom Paul for getting a SSI check because he has paid into the system. 

The American capitalist model may have been worthy at one time, but sadly, since the Reagan era, it has been corrupted by rapacious, sociopathic doppelgangers only too willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of millions of Americans to further enrich themselves. 

But I guess that's what happens when you elect B grade actors, adulterous perjurers and coke snorting drunks to the highest office in the land.


Mark, you've posted your anti-American rants from foreign shores on numerous occasions, yet, history has shown that time after time, when there's a problem in the world America is called upon to fix it.
Financial assistance that results in higher taxes  and the precious lives of American men and women is the price we've paid to help solve the problems of others.
You've been, are and continue to be an envious, mean spirited anti-American scum bag.
Others who don't know your anti-American history should be made aware of it.

[Terry Lavin]

I think I'll go to Mass.

[Lou_Duran]

“I’ve been such a fool, Vassili. Man will always be a man. There is no new man. We tried so hard to create a society that was equal, where there’d be nothing to envy your neighbour. But there’s always something to envy. A smile, a friendship, something you don’t have and want to appropriate. In this world, even a Soviet one, there will always be rich and poor. Rich in gifts, poor in gifts. Rich in love, poor in love.”
—
Movie, Enemy at the gates, 2001

What a truly disappointing thread.  And what a truly miserable experience it must be to live with that mindset.   

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I'm with you.  Now we just need to stop throwing money at being the world's policeman:

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/budgetary-savings-military-restraint

[V. Kmetz]

Hello All,

I just concluded a gracious conversation with Tom Paul and we have made an initial commitment to find some public manner, that may have to begin in private initially, to advance the discussion about how Golf and our history in it, mirrors (?) exposes(?) predicts (?) registers (?) in our world.

Tom's ability to contribute a unique and valuable discovery to such an airing is unquestioned.  Whether or not my contribution can carry the same vitality; I am anxious.

I anticipate, if I can hold up my end, a discussion that ironically will be able to stay on Golf a great deal but still address the socio-economic-political-aspects of what the essences behind the game may be saying.

That's a mouthful, but hopefully tasty enough to want a full meal.

JIM NUGENT:

You're wrong, my house payment is $1750 per month (including tax escrow), if I include insurance it is 1825 a month. But you're also wrong in that when that house payment was secured, in 2005, it did not represent so large a percentage of my income - which was closer to $5000 a month.  So what do you think happened?  Your first two answers may not come close.

And while my last activities with the market were losers, it's only because I needed the money to live and was forced to take losses on the last stocks I owned -which I still believe in and wish I could buy more.  I'll sign up for that casino, anytime.  I made $15,000 into $40, 000 within 1 and 3/4 years.  I had SIRI at .1275 and Apple at 180.00 and FCX at 18.00 and Gold SPDRs when Gold wavered down to $800.00oz.  Such is the situation now, in the beginnings of hopefully realizing fruits of a new life and professional direction at age 44, that I had to take losses on other stocks that I wish I could still hold.

So please, I posted this to counter the insinuation that I advantage my undermarket means of sustenance by failing to be counted and paying what I must; not for financial sanction and derision.  Why hasn't PM posted his own?  Or you?  Is it because you don't want your condition subject to the scrutiny and sanction of others?

And if you really knew WHY I slipstreamed into $1750 a month in 2005, your doors would be blown off.  Email me privately and I'll tell you.

cheers

vk

[Mac Plumart]

Hello All,

I just concluded a gracious conversation with Tom Paul and we have made an initial commitment to find some public manner, that may have to begin in private initially, to advance the discussion about how Golf and our history in it, mirrors (?) exposes(?) predicts (?) registers (?) in our world.

Tom's ability to contribute a unique and valuable discovery to such an airing is unquestioned.  Whether or not my contribution can carry the same vitality; I am anxious.

I anticipate, if I can hold up my end, a discussion that ironically will be able to stay on Golf a great deal but still address the socio-economic-political-aspects of what the essences behind the game may be saying.

Good on you Tom Paul.

[Bill Brightly]

"I see a life wasted, ignorant of what true good fortune is"

As I have said, I don't have a problem discussing the socio-economic issues with private clubs in America and golf in general, but I still think this comment is completely out of line and will continue to call out anyone that makes such a ridiculous statement when you don't know the person.  

 

This was the comment by VK that irked me so much. These words tell me all I need to know about him: he is a weak and spiteful individual, doomed to useless rantings at a world in which he will have no capacity to make positive change. We'll see who's life is wasted...

Thanks to some hard work and perhaps a decent amount of intelligence, I live comfortably but am by no means wealthy. However, I have been around enough "uber wealthy" individuals to know that being born into tremendous wealth is no great stroke of luck. It is incredibly hard to develop a "sound moral compass" and the pressures from the family are often intense. I dare say that most born into this existence wish they had not been so "lucky" and would have preferred the far more normal path that their school friends followed. The "need to succeed" was robbed from these people at birth, and it is no simple matter to find "replacement" life goals.
 
The expression "don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasians" comes to mind.

[Melvyn Morrow]

It’s great to see harmony once again gracing the web pages of GCA.com. So can we now get back to GCA that affects the whole world? 

Subjects that are at the heart of the fragmentation of the Royal and Ancient Game; examples like Land Fit for Purpose, minimising the numbers of carts and their paths so they are just available for the mobility issues (through age and medical reasons). Also the reason for allowing outside information to aid players be it through distance aids, caddies advice or improved equipment technology. And what about a Governing Body which represents the golfers and not just the interests of those with the money.

Then what about trying to minimise the over engineering of golf courses, their design and their build. Get a sort of back to basics where the land counts as a key component in the whole process, instead of what appears to be a side issue - was it not the reason the site was selected in the first place. A rebirth of the real spirit of the game starting through site selection, design and not forgetting the build process that is today just unacceptable as it destroys the very land that was chosen in the first place.
In other words put the game first, I know that it’s been a while since this novel idea was presented, but it is very much still at the centre of GCA and should not be compromised by commercial interests.
 
After all a golf course is for life, not just for Christmas - right.

Who has the real balls to get into any of the real issues (some mentioned above) that afflict the modern game?   

PS Bill do not have moccasins, what does that do to your expression 

[Sven Nilsen]

 

I dare say that most born into this existence wish they had not been so "lucky" and would have preferred the far more normal path that their school friends followed.
 
[/quote]

Bill:

I think you missed on this one.  Your example is closer to Randolph or Mortimer trading places with the least monied member of their downtown club, as opposed to a Billy Ray and Louis swap.

"And then she stepped on the ball..."

Sven  

[Bill Brightly]

PS Bill do not have moccasins, what does that do to your expression 

Well then since I know nothing about your shoes, I guess I can't judge you, Melvin. But then again, I never have and do not wish to.

[Sven Nilsen]

"If you run into one of them playing golf somewhere else you may not recognize the type unless you look again and look very carefully. Some of them have more money than most well capitalized small town banks but they often don’t look that part. Many of them came by their wealth the “old fashioned” way—they inherited it. The money is still cast down to them in dribs and drabs by multiple century old trusts from their once “captains of the universe” ancestors, but you might never know it to look at them. They usually appear a little old fashioned and out of date in dress or demeanor, sometimes even a bit shabby and eccentric; their automobiles usually aren’t the snappiest in the parking lot. If you think you’ve spotted one you might want to ask him what his grandfather thought the Haskell ball did to golf and architecture or what the onset of income taxes in the teens did to the world, particularly his world. If he looks like he’s interested and answers your question with alacrity you may’ve spotted an ancestral vestige of the Anglo-American gentleman whose forbears once dominated the halls of the greatest old clubs and organizational administrations of golf a century and more ago. And if you ask him who he voted for in the last American presidential election don’t be completely surprised if he says Barrack Obama."

I enjoyed this paragraph from Tom's interview, and went back to find it after reading through this thread.  In some ways Tom's reaction to Vinnie's post makes me think he was writing about himself, whether he meant to or not.  Its refreshing to see someone ask "why" as opposed to pointing out how their particular view of the world does not align with the thoughts expressed.  The only thing I would have changed in the paragraph above is to add empathy after alacrity, as i believe Tom's actions here have expressed both.

[RJ_Daley]

I just started reading this thread this morning.  After just reading the original one by VK, I was tempted to respond, but knew that with so many posts below weighing in so quickly, that it would probably be better to read on and see where this was going, expecting another "Merion" sort of outpouring of emotional baggage and 1upsmanship of who can write, expound on their grasp of history, and socio/economic policies better than the next.  Certainly, I have made my own feeble attempts to expectorate my own personal beliefs in such discussions too many times in the past.  And of course one gets frustrated and asks the opening question:  "is it even worth it?"

But, finally we get to Sven's quote of TEP, and he seems to come to the same conclusion I did when I read Tom's interview; that he may be speaking about himself (to some degree) and wants us to know that there is the deeper character of a man than some of the other things he was saying in the thread, because TEP is nothing, if not introspective and contemplative about himself, and how he fits in this society. 

I guess I immediately was put off because the opening premise or question of whether his was "a life wasted" that really stuck in my craw.  I feel uncomfortable at the possibility that one ought to chime in to defend a fellow that can without any doubt in my mind- defend himself, where the obligatory defense by fellow posters is baited by VKs unreasonable comment, and could be taken as some sort of referendum of whether you like TEP or not, or whether he likes you; and how does the treehouse feel about that!

So, I think the quote from the interview might be read over and over if you need to understand TEP, for whatever reason that you may "need" to understand him.  As a member of the GCA.com community, I feel like I 'need' and want to understand people who post here, and have been lucky enough to make friends and acquaintances with many of them.  Many not in the camp of social/political/economic reasoning I may have, but respected, nonetheless. 

So, now we have this detante meeting between TEP and VK, and all the revelations of life that will bring.

Hello All,

I just concluded a gracious conversation with Tom Paul and we have made an initial commitment to find some public manner, that may have to begin in private initially, to advance the discussion about how Golf and our history in it, mirrors (?) exposes(?) predicts (?) registers (?) in our world.

Tom's ability to contribute a unique and valuable discovery to such an airing is unquestioned.  Whether or not my contribution can carry the same vitality; I am anxious.

I anticipate, if I can hold up my end, a discussion that ironically will be able to stay on Golf a great deal but still address the socio-economic-political-aspects of what the essences behind the game may be saying.

That's a mouthful, but hopefully tasty enough to want a full meal.

Yeah, let's eat, and please pass the mashed potatoes and gravy...

[Mike Sweeney]

Answering Tony's questions to me:


Mike I take it you haven't read The Spirit Level.  

I have not read it.

American is growing more unequal not less. It leads the world in inequality and it leads the world in social problems.

I don't see that data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Can you tell me where you are getting this data from?


And here's the thing, the States where inequality is greatest are also the ones where social problems are greatest.  



Is this from the book? In his paper that I found, he states:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094139/

"Results among states of the US
Table 2 summarises results for the US from previously published studies and our new analyses ​analyses.. Income inequality at the state level was significantly correlated with rates of teenage births, juvenile homicides, infant mortality, low birth weight, child overweight, mental health problems, and high school dropouts as well as with worse educational scores. States with higher average incomes had significantly fewer teenage births and fewer children dropping out of high school, but they did no better than poorer states on the other six measures of child wellbeing.

"Conclusions: Improvements in child well being in rich societies may depend more on reductions in inequality than on further economic growth."

That seems very generic to me and really lacks any specific information actionable items. I am certainly not surprised by the state data. The differences between NYC and Upstate New York are well known. Manufacturing left many of the small towns in Upstate New York, and it will take decades to replace, or the population will shift to where jobs are being created,

The book shows a clear correlation in these two throughout the developed world.  

Not seeing this in his paper:

"As the figure shows, the UK has the lowest score for child wellbeing on the Unicef index and does worse than expected—even given its high levels of inequality and child relative poverty. Its position reflects poor scores on most components of the index. Only on mortality from accidents and injury does the UK do conspicuously well. On the proportion of children who find their peers kind and helpful, the frequency of drunkenness, and the proportion of children who had sex by age 15, Britain does worse than expected from its levels of child relative poverty and inequality."

Showing how Hispanic wealth has grown in a boom time doesn't even address Blacks (referenced by Mark)  and other poor parts of society.  

1. The last 4 years certainly are not boom times.

2. Mark addressed Hispanics and Blacks. I only addressed Hispanics because he was incorrect. I am sure he was more on point with Black population.

3. Mark did not address other poor parts of society, and neither did I.

The question for the future is what do we do about it?

I think it is being done as evidenced by the college enrollment statistics. Again if you are a believer in access to education being a path to a better life, these numbers are pretty surprising in a good way. Ways to make it happen faster are complex for sure.


Anyway discussing Hispanics is nothing but a diversion from the subject. No?

Again, Mark brought the incorrect Hispanic data into the conversation and I was correcting his statement. Discussing Hispanics is on topic, IMO. Tom Paul and his ancestry was the topic of this thread, and I have tried to show that there has been an evolution of discrimination in society over the years of many ethnic and minority  groups including Catholics, Italians, Irish, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics and now Muslims. It started with WASP discrimination and has in a variety of forms and between a variety of groups evolved over the past 100 years. The fact that Hispanics have made great strides over the last 10 years is topical, IMO, but again, it was Mark that brought it up.