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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »
Hello All,

First before it gets completely blown out of the water; thanks to Mac and Tom D who managed to respond on the real thing that I visited the board for.

I want to prepare a written "something" regarding the dynamic origins of the art of GCA, which I would posit is a most unique fine art form worthy of humanities study, as is painting, music, edifice architecture, etc.  Obviously, external critique is a great part of that demonstration and so I'm interested in what are the first bubblings of "hey, what are you doing there?"

(Tom, I shouldn't have qualified it by saying "long" article - ANYTHING of record is what I should be asking about)  And it really shouldn't be the first ten either, it should be anything prior to 1935 or so, as I can kind of take it from there.  

OK, as to the $800,000,000 Trust Fund Gorilla unleashed in the room, I say this:

1.  Over ten hours and 40 posts in opposition to my message, not one of said detractors has addressed the issue for which I'm to be taken to some sort of task: what precisely, please, did I say about Mr. Paul's memoir that you object to?  If you object to my sarcastic style in saying "Papa Paul" and the lampoon hyperbole of the wealthiest being dispossessed of half their wealth; (are you TRULY afraid that will happen in your lifetime?) I acknowledge it's not way to make a serious point; it's my failure. But is a man resigning the board at Seminole an act of grace and conscience, because 1969's Jack Nicklaus was too much of a longhair, for the reasons that it is ungentlemanly to breach with friends altogether over such an issue. This, when the same man -who we're told belongs to a dozen other clubs of such bearing--will just see most of them at the 11 other clubs.  If that's not twisted dandism on direct display, nearly as factual as defecation, then there really is no point in going on.  And this piece is larded with such syllogisms, interstitial maxims, and insinuations.

1a.  Would not it break your heart to be a 44 year old person, who has only begun a transition to university life, who is confronted with the actual 18, 19 year old state college students who can afford or earn no better, who are loaded with debt before they hit the streets....would it not break your heart to see that and then hear such winsome, fond memories of basically "f***ing off" for a number of years?  And still it was always going to turn up roses.  What is the point of that story anyway? Meanwhile, seeing as it is for both myself and my students these days; knowing many scions and scion's scions of that world myself, it's bitter to think of the treasury and opportunity essentially wasted on such people.  If it is the politics of the deadly sin of envy, so be it; the tone and account of the behavior itself smacks of the politics of sloth, pride, vanity, even gluttony -- all coming from the politics of greed.  We might be equal in the politics of lust, so my side still wins: 1-5-1 on the Seven Deadly Sin count.

1b.  Instead of addressing any particular point; I have heard instead about these big headline items..."Capitalism...would would you do?" WTC losses, a disgraceful person collecting welfare after a big lottery prize (btw: at 67, does Tom Paul collect SSI checks?  Does he keep his address in FL and say he lives there a month and a day when he is actually not most of the time?  These and similar schemes have long been deployed by our wealthiest in modern times) How can I possibly answer those questions?  You can't answer them either.  But I do say, just as the sun rose on Sept 12, after the crash of 1929, after the scandals, the assasinations, the thievery, the abuses of the welfare system, so would it rise if the wealthiest 10,000 were dispossessed of substantial amounts of their liquidable holdings, as it will if the 10,000 of me lose their home to foreclosure.  Fortune cuts both ways, no?

2.  Don't put September 11, 2001 in anybody's face; don't ask anyone if they were in grief for the loss of anyone who perished in terrorist attacks that day--it's only a prism through the personal, not the objective and it only matters when and where and how you start the clock.  Do you know, actually know and/or are related to, any of the 3000 dead and the 20,000+ maimed US soldiers killed in Iraq, fighting for what again?  Do you know any of the 8,000 civilians killed (no one, not even the red cross really knows) in Iraq, four times that in wound casualties and an entire citizenry for months without necessities of food, sewer, water, roadways, hospitals - not to mention a Vichy occupation that broke the dam on civil war that cost upwards of 140,000 lives and untold casualties.  You don't think there's some overworked plumbing supply salesman in Iraq, who likes to read the newspaper and doesn't pray as much as he should? You think everyone in Iraq is sharpening swords for jihad against the great Satan, America?  You don't think they have birthday parties and send greeting cards and have humorous email posting boards in Iraq? But none of that counts because you know someone who died in a dastardly attack...well I don't know as much as I could, but I know this:  There are no flags or calendars in heaven, just souls.

3.  The least important--to me--of my grievances is that TP didn't speak very much about Golf.  I too found this enormously entertaining, a pretty good read really and extremely informative.  I really do like hearing about worlds that I only partly get a glimpse. Why DOESN"T Tom Paul post anymore?  I really don't know what necessitated his self-imposed(?) exile from the board.  I assume it was some Merion was/wasn't designed by somebody thing with 1683 pages of replies.  Is there more to it? As far as I'm concerned, have him be the "interview" every week--of course we all get to say OUR piece, right?

3a.  The second least important--to me--portion of my criticism of the piece is that it was proffered as an interview when we all know that it was nothing of a sort.  Ok, really no harm, you got me (ha-ha) - but the obvious fact that it was engineered and presented that way--says that the traditional method of disclaiming or otherwise contextualizing that Part I (at least) has barely a whit to do with GCA and that it is a memoir of Tom's life (which RM sorta tried to almost did do in his posting intro) is evidence in and of itself that this is a vanity-pride exercise allowed to take place; done in this way so that it can be "masked" as a harmless story.  again, I say, sure--as long as I get to call it for what I think it is.

3b.  Yeah, lids off as to topic as far as I can say.  Why not have a flame war here? there's thousands of topics, hundreds of posters, so just ignore what you will, engage what you will and go forth.  Tom or I or the next guy, should not have to tone it down, talk about Golf, not talk about politics...just move on to the next topic about Whistling Straits stoopit waste bunkers or a new course opening in Abu Dhabi.  We can all be like Tom's father in that we can just resign from a post on a board, but not leave the club, as it were.

4.  I admit failure in keeping a civil tone, but I mean a personal attack on Tom in the same way those who disagree with what I say intend an attack on me.  Unfortunately, he and his life were the subject of Part I. Part of expositing that subject meant saying things that were an ugliness disguised as virtue, in my opinion.  I intend to attack those things and not Tom Paul, but how you can disagree with an autobiography and not come off as attacking the principal in your disagreements.  Tom has come to wrong conclusions in my mind, and his story is indicative of a life that is highly ignorant, I believe, of the factual work and strife endured everyday by homo-sapiens that are only different in fortune.  If I say I view Tom's life as one "wasted" (perhaps my most pejorative attack) it is through the prism of THIS story.  With only THIS story to go on, I see a man who was born into enormous wealth, who idled in his youth, was not compelled to do or make anything of himself with no real consequence for failure of any sort, who took to playing a game for its aesthetic and personal pleasure, often alone (which speaks volumes about character) and then at age 50 or so - discovered a wormhole, an Easter Egg in the game to GCA and quickly contacted "the only architect he knew" Rees Jones and replaced the idleness of privileged youth with the idleness of middle age.  OK, fortune is a bitch, but why must there be at every turn of his piece a note of social justification and the justification go unchallenged, when one thinks it is incorrect? Just as you would tell me I am wrong?

4a.  What's a hero?  Isn't a hero someone who sacrifices something of himself, perhaps even his entire life or puts himself in some sort of disadvantage or danger to alleviate or defend the sufferings of others who cannot?  What did Tom Paul, in this Part I autobiographical preamble.

Ahhhh, as forecasted when I wrote last night; there's far too much to say and too many responders to adequately address to continue at this time.  Maybe I'll refresh with some baseball, student papers to grade, some microwave pizza and the Rangers Senators hockey game later.  It was a long but profitable day in the sun, I only need to have 250 more just like them in the next 200 days and perhaps I'll have REAL time to engage with everyone who wants to.  I mean no injurious attack on TP; I don't know TP beyond the instrument of this memoir-view; everyone keep your money just as you see fit; it really doesn't matter as far as any solutions to anything on my mind.  This I suppose is my own true rhetorical answer to the subject question.

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2012, 06:10:23 PM »
1b.  Instead of addressing any particular point; I have heard instead about these big headline items..."Capitalism...would would you do?"

WTC losses, a disgraceful person collecting welfare after a big lottery prize (btw: at 67, does Tom Paul collect SSI checks?

Why wouldn't he ?
He's just getting back the money he put in for about 50 years.


Does he keep his address in FL and say he lives there a month and a day when he is actually not most of the time?  

NO, HE DOESN'T

And, if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that you CAN'T live in FL for a month and a day and avoid State income taxes in NJ, NY or PA, and, you'd know how diligently those states pursue those who change their legal residence to FL.
You have to not just live in FL for 180+ days a year, you have to be a resident citizen, which holds you to a far more difficult standard.


These and similar schemes have long been deployed by our wealthiest in modern times)

"Schemes" ?
What "schemes" ?
You live in an ivory tower and don't know what you're talking about, especially on the residency issue.
But, tell us, what other "schemes" are you referencing ?

Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand said it best when he stated:

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury.
There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible.
Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands."



How can I possibly answer those questions?  

You can't because you don't have the facts at your disposal.


You can't answer them either.  

Yes, I can.


But I do say, just as the sun rose on Sept 12, after the crash of 1929, after the scandals, the assasinations, the thievery, the abuses of the welfare system, so would it rise if the wealthiest 10,000 were dispossessed of substantial amounts of their liquidable holdings, as it will if the 10,000 of me lose their home to foreclosure.  

You want to confiscate the fruits of labor from hard working successful people who made the right decisions and reward those who made ill advised decisions.

You want people who made prudent decisions to pay for the mistakes of people who made imprudent decisions.

Hardly equitable treatment.


Fortune cuts both ways, no?

NO, it doesn't.
There was no reward for those hard working wealthy people who invested their capital and lost it.
Those who invested wisely, and reaped the rewards of their hard work, are entitled to their gains.
And, they're under no obligation to pay for the financial mistakes of others through a confiscatory tax "scheme".

Those who bought houses with no money down, who were betting, and rebetting, on the come that real estate prices would continue to rise, who were financially reckless, are NOT entitled to confiscate the wealth of those who employed more prudent strategies.

You deem yourself "entitled" to the product of the hard work of others.


« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 06:37:11 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2012, 06:15:37 PM »


To BB:    For the moment, I'll try and BE the change I want to see.


vk

From what I have read, you want to "BE" a small, hateful person. In my experience, such individuals are incapable of effecting positive changes. Good luck in your endeavors.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2012, 06:29:12 PM »
BB,

Perhaps what you say is true; I do not know; we all have all never seen ourselves, not in a picture, not in a mirror, not in a video.

Though your opinion may be in greater majority vis a vis this board; thank god it is infitesimally held, and mostly the reverse reported, in the venues that matter most to me.

"When the Gods wish to punish us, they grant us our wishes." - perhaps your wishes for my good luck will find traction in this older maxim.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kyle Harris

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2012, 06:43:01 PM »
VK:

Please check your personal messages. I have forwarded an email just received from Tom Paul, for you.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2012, 06:51:51 PM »
Kyle,

Thank you so much for forwarding the info; I just spoke with Tom on the phone and we're going to try to arrange to have a talk tomorrow (likely a wash-out for me caddying, so I'll have time) as right now is inconvenient for the two of us.

Thanks again,

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kyle Harris

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »
Kyle,

Thank you so much for forwarding the info; I just spoke with Tom on the phone and we're going to try to arrange to have a talk tomorrow (likely a wash-out for me caddying, so I'll have time) as right now is inconvenient for the two of us.

Thanks again,

cheers

vk

Glad I could help.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2012, 07:07:12 PM »
Kyle,

Thank you so much for forwarding the info; I just spoke with Tom on the phone and we're going to try to arrange to have a talk tomorrow (likely a wash-out for me caddying, so I'll have time) as right now is inconvenient for the two of us.

Thanks again,

cheers

vk

I wish I had the tech know-how to offer to do a live-feed of that conversation so that the rest of us GCAers who will be rained out of golf tomorrow can listen.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2012, 07:08:08 PM »
Back when Jack Nicklaus was applying to Seminole, a well connected attorney in Charlotte told me he had a friend who was a Seminole member and he said "we are going to make it pretty tough on Jack."  When I asked why, he said the member told him that some years earlier Jack had been critical of the Donald Ross design or indicated it was highly overrated architecturally.  I was surprised to read Tom's version.  Maybe both are correct and they added up to the ding.
We all admire Jack's competitive nature and his talents, but maybe the members detected something they didn't feel was right.  Frankly, I think it was their loss, not Jack's.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2012, 08:09:16 PM »
TEPaul asked me to post this on his behalf:

V.Kmetz:
 
I just read your thread, and I will tell you right now----I not only admire you for writing it---I admire you greatly for writing it! Ran Morrissett asked me if I wanted to return to GOLFCLUBALTLAS.com and I basically told him I did not because even though I still read some of it sometimes, I have not found much to be interested in on it recently. But your thread changed that!
 
I would love to discuss with you many of the things you said on your initial post, and I look forward to doing it. I will come back on the website, if at the very least, to discuss your thread with you. We may need to take our cue from Ran Morrissett to see if he wants this website to get into some discussions of social, societal, cultural implications etc, historically and otherwise; I'm hoping that he does because I certainly believe in many ways they did and still do underpin golf.
 
When I read things as provocatively thoughtful as your initial post, very often adages and sayings occur to me. From your post, a few of them, for now, would be;
 
"The sins of our fathers...."
 
and,
 
"One barometer of the strength of a nation is the amount of diverse public opinions it can weather"

 

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2012, 08:24:40 PM »
Talk about kicking the stool out from under!  This is the ultimate threadjack of a thread that almost got threadjacked by a booklist request. Mucci better get some Ambien tonight! 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2012, 08:42:41 PM »
I have opinions about what has been written by Tom and V.  I could also them out for various things.  However, I think this is a tremendous opportunity for self reflection, for each of us to think about our place in the world and what we can do to improve ourselves and everyone else.  Sure, some are dealt a better hand than others.  Some waste it, some do the best with it.  At the end of it all, only we can look back and answer whether we're happy with the life we've led.

It's funny, I find myself a little jealous of Mr Paul.  Not because he's wealthier or has more access than I do.  It's that he is (or was) an accomplished amateur player.  His words make me want to find a couple extra hours each week for practice.  I went to the range today for the first time in a long while.  My shoulders and hands were so relaxed I did not require a glove.  I hit many nice short irons.  The 3 iron was not so good.

Though I'm neither wealthy nor an excellent player, I'm pretty comfortable with my place in the world.  I don't really want to take from someone that has more than me, nor do I care to be forced to give to someone less fortunate.  I want to be a good person on my terms, not anybody else's.  I hope we all find inner peace.  It feels good.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2012, 08:46:18 PM »
"I see a life wasted, ignorant of what true good fortune is"

As I have said, I don't have a problem discussing the socio-economic issues with private clubs in America and golf in general, but I still think this comment is completely out of line and will continue to call out anyone that makes such a ridiculous statement when you don't know the person.  

 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 09:21:47 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2012, 08:50:00 PM »
Michael G,

By the same token, do you know V. Kmetz?

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2012, 08:54:42 PM »
Scott - I do not know V. Kmetz and have not said anything negative about him or his life, which would be pure ignorance to do so.  I have simply criticized his judgment of a person's life that he has never met, solely because he is wealthy.  His post would have been fine if he simply left it to the socio-economic issues that he addressed, which I understand Tom Paul thinking are interesting discussion.  However, the quote that I provided is ignorant.

As to the socio-economic issues addressed in his post, I have a picture of my wife and 5 children next to my keyboard on my desk.  My happiness is based much more on them then my financial success or whether I am granted permission to play a private golf course or whether a wealthy person has to give up half of his wealth.  If you base your happiness on what others have, you will never be happy as it is an impossible standard.    
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 09:13:58 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2012, 09:11:58 PM »
I read both essays.  I liked them both.  They are both very well-written.

There's a suitable song to share:

"Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty trapped
countless fire and flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand,
At the mongrel dogs who teach.
Fearing not I'd become my enemy,
In the instant that I preached.
Sisters led by confusion boats,
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

My guard stood hard when abstract threats,
Too noble to neglect.
Deceived me into thinking,
I had something to protect.
Good and bad, I define these terms,
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now."

--  Bob Dylan


The Byrds version of this song is my favorite.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 09:15:12 PM by John Kirk »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2012, 09:18:09 PM »
Let me tell you a TP story - architecture related.

I'm a member at French Creek GC, a Hanse course I absolutely love.  Can I afford it - probably not, but I have such a love for GCA that I sacrifice to be able to play.  In other words, VK, I'm one of those (ex- in my case!) State University students you mentioned in an earlier post.

French Creek was hosting a Pennsylvania Golf Assoc. event, and Tom Paul was giving back to the game by being a rules official.

Tom called me that night and we talked for about 2 hours about Gil's design at FC.  I learned then just how much Tom loved GCA and how much he knew.   Tom treated me like an old friend, with respect, and as an equal.  He's done some other amazing things for me that will remain between us.

His knowledge of GCA comes from his background.  Believe me, my playing munis in Buffalo didn't exactly expose me to great GCA!  It's people like Tom that really move the discussion and provide knowledge and insight.  Sure, sometimes people disagree, but that's OK when discussing something as beautiful and complex as GCA.

Tom really gives back to the game.  He was the president of the Pennsylvania Golf Assn.  He's a rules official.  He's involved with the USGA historical library (wrong name, but you get the point).  He was a co-author of the fantastic book on Flynn.  He's even  hosted the Philly folks to his home for Christmastime get togethers (video can be found on YouTube).

VK - I really hope you enjoy your talk with Tom, as I know that he'll treat you with respect.  I also hope you get to know the Tom Paul that I'm proud to know.  Lastly, I'm almost certain that you'll both learn some wonderful new information about each other and find out that you're really not all that different after all :)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2012, 09:48:38 PM »
Bill B,

V Kmetz characterizes everyone who has acquired wealth as having done so either criminally, by cheating or through "schemes", completely dismissing factors such as intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice.

Does anyone think he'll report his caddy fees today, withholding 12 % for Social Security, 3 % for Medicare, FICA & NY State withholdings and Federal withholdings ?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2012, 09:54:00 PM »
Kyle,

Thank you so much for forwarding the info; I just spoke with Tom on the phone and we're going to try to arrange to have a talk tomorrow (likely a wash-out for me caddying, so I'll have time) as right now is inconvenient for the two of us.

Thanks again,

cheers

vk

Just for the record, I have asked Old Tom from Ohio (aka Melvyn) the same courtesy as I still believe he is a fake. Mel has not not responded to date.


V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2012, 10:43:31 PM »
Ran, Tom, All,

I too am pleased with the direction this has taken.  Tom Paul, it seems, may be the only one who understood that:

- I'm not attacking him or his life, only claiming as TS Eliot did, "someone has to pay the rent."
- It's not stylistic sarcasm when I said I thought it was one of the braver thing ever distributed.
-I genuinely feel unworthy to say anything about anyone else regarding service to their fellow man; in it's positivism regarding itself; it made me realize I need to redouble my own efforts or at least not let the efforts I have engaged flag or become despondent because I think I have had a rough go of it, when I really think about the people I know who are in greater despair than I am.

Well, I was going to post a thing to wrap up this thread, the introduction to my Masters Thesis collection of Poetry, so that at least beyond my dry data, you had a "wet" portion of my own biography and some knowledge of who I am beyond what you know already. It would be no where near as entertaining as Tom's and for that and because it really has nothing to do with nothing - just context - I am electing to just wrap up my entries on this thread, which started a mere 23 hours ago and see what the posting world looks like in the post-TP Interview Part I era.

It looks promising...

btw:  PM...I meant to write "six months and a day" It was a typo/omission. I know the 180+ standard and which state's residents can/cannot navigate it and what things go into it.  As to your other GREEN posts, it looks like more info will be coming out soon.

how do you post a PDF of your 1040 form.  I declared every penny of my entire 2011 in caddie earnings, all 138 loops, $18550 in rates, 2620 in tips (14%) as well as the $2400 I made as a graduate assistant over 16 weeks last spring.  After tuition deduction and stock losses of $4875 (account now withdrawn to less than $1000) - capped at $3000 on line 13, my line 38 is 17,731 and after Schedule A (17,664 in mortgage interest, property and real estate taxes, 350 to the Goodwill) I had a pre-standard deduction taxable income of $67.15.  The government pats my head and says deduct 3700 more from that but only if the latter is greater than the former you owe 0.  As to SSI/med the amount I owed through Form 4137--was $149.73.  My check was in the mail on Tuesday 4/17 at 3:45pm.  I have the certified receipt.  Would you like to hear about my debts, now? Or may I inventory my property for you? Again it will not be as entertaining as other posts.

I showed you mine, how about showing yours?

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mark_F

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2012, 10:47:06 PM »
completely dismissing factors such as intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice. 

Patrick,

So by your above reckoning, black and Hispanic Americans have none of the above virtues?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2012, 11:01:29 PM »
completely dismissing factors such as intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice. 

Patrick,

So by your above reckoning, black and Hispanic Americans have none of the above virtues?

WOW, Mark.

Now you're the one dismissing the existence of any wealthy minorities (granted there's a disparity, but STILL). How you inferred that and found a way to accuse Mr. Mucci of racist musings from his quote is shameful. I sure hope I'm missing something here...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2012, 11:02:29 PM »
completely dismissing factors such as intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice. 

Patrick,

So by your above reckoning, black and Hispanic Americans have none of the above virtues?

Mark Ferguson,

You're beyond dumb, you're ignorant

Jim Nugent

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2012, 11:22:40 PM »
VK, as I understand your financial info, your mortgage runs nearly $1500 a month.  Yet your income is under $2000 a month.  So you spend 75% of your earnings on your house payment, and have taken money from somewhere (earnings?) to play the stock market.  This leaves you under $500 a month to cover all your other expenses.  

If these numbers are more or less right, I mean it sincerely when I urge you to immediately get some financial management help.  Your house payment is drowning you.  Playing the stock market as well pours salt on a gaping wound: you need actual savings, not visits to the casino.  

If anyone wonders why we have a financial crisis, just think about a system that allows (encourages) low-income people to spend 75% of their money on a house payment.  
  

Mark_F

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2012, 11:26:44 PM »
You're beyond dumb, you're ignorant.

Patrick,

Black and Hispanic Americans make up 12 and 16% respectively the population of the USA.  85% of the private wealth of the USA is held by 20% of the population.  Black and Hispanics do not comprise their relative percentage of that wealth, which means that either they don't possess those factors you cite, or there are other factors involved in becoming rich.

Perhaps you could inform poor dumb old ignorant me of the reasons why that is so without your usual bluff and bluster.

Alex,

Put a sock in it.  I didn't accuse Patrick of being racist, nor did I dismiss the wealth of minorities.  It was Patrick who boldly stated that wealth is due to "intelligence, hard work, long hours, diligence, risk and sacrifice."  Clearly there is much more to it it than that. You stated there is a disparity.  So why?