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Josh Stevens

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Scottish golf b$$m
« on: April 15, 2012, 08:01:49 AM »
Pinched a copy of May Golf World from the lounge at Heathrow the other day.  Little article on list of new developments either underway or on the drawing board in Scotland:
* Taymouth Castle, Perthshire.  Stepen Gallacher ($105m)
* Trump International, Aberdeenshire, Martin Hawtree  ($1.1bn)
* Kersewell Resort, Lanarkshire.  Sandy Lyle and Scott Macpherson.  ($250m)
* St Andrews International, St Andrews. Tom Weiskopf ($37m)
* The Angus, Angus, near Carnoustie.  Darren Clarke. ($80m)
* Ury Estate, Stonehaven. Jack Nicklaus ($60m)
* G-West, Perthshire, near Gleneagles. DMK Golf Design  ($750m)

So thats $2.4bn.  And who said the economy is still stuffed. 
Call me a cynic, but this does look like the beginnings of a slow motion train wreck if they all actually go ahead.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »
Josh,

Many of those numbers cited are pure fantasy. When it's in the ground AND turning a profit is the only time the measurables can be assessed with accuracy. The rest is optimistic PR and fluff...at best!

Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but reality still seems to circle in short supply with many folks in, and around, the game. There are some glimmers of positive news, the fairly mild Winter being the best of it. A favorable year from Mother Nature would be most welcome.

The train already flew off the tracks, worldwide, and the carnage will take a while to clean up. But as a cup half full proponent,  
let's keep enjoying the game and contribute to make a difference when we can.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:56:47 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 02:17:34 PM »
That Darren Clarke one is really Niblick Golf Design I believe (Graeme Webster &  Brian Phillips)...
 
There's an EGD (Robin Hiseman) / Paul Lawrie one in Aberdeen too... Hopefully not gone forever... No more so than Ury Estate anyway...

What about the DMK one in Ayr / Irvine?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 02:31:28 PM »
Josh

As Kris says, those figures are pure fantasy. It is common in this country to talk about how much a product is worth by the end value of the product. The Trump development seems to have started what I believe maybe an American custom (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong  ;) ) of including the mulitplier effect on the economy in general. Hence, a couple of weeks ago on land between Nairn and Castle Stuart the local landowner eventually got planning permission for a couple of courses and 300 houses. Thats not far off what Trump got planning for yet the figure quoted was £70/£80m, or roughly a tenth of Trumps figure. 

Niall

David Kelly

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Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 03:17:26 PM »
That architect list doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 03:54:30 PM »
That architect list doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Scares the hell out of me too... and I'm on it ;)

Joking aside, certainly the number associated with the Kersewell Resort is a resort number, not a golf course design and construction cost. I'd have to really think hard if I had to spend $250k on a golf course....

scott

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 07:16:33 AM »
Niall,

Who got permission for that project between Nairn and Castle Stuart? Do they know anything about golf? Sounds like a disaster in the making. CS, with all the accolades, is struggling a bit, and they had top folks behind that effort and even secured the Scottish Open to give them a boost. How could someone think they are going to be successful on yet another area project given the reality of the economics up in the Highlands?

I never ceases to amaze me what some folks will attempt.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »
Kris

I can't recall if its Cawder Estates or something like that. Certainly its the local aristocracy. Basically the same type of people who own CS and backed Mark Parsinen so don't see why it can't be successful. Particularly as landowner. If CS has proved anything its that the bigger the cluster of top courses the more people will come and play them other "lesser" courses.

Also if its being built on the land I think it is then its got much more potential than CS interms of the type of land. Suggest you have a look at Google Earth and have a look at the land west of Nairn.

Niall

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:15:59 PM »
Niall & Kris -

Here is the website for the Cawdor development between Inverness & Nairn. Clearly, it is a much larger project than just building another golf course.

http://www.cawdorcastle.com/delnies/

Latest from the Press & Journal: http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2701369

I just hope there are plans to make the A96 4-lanes all the way from Inverness to Elgin (and I hope I live long enough to see those plans actually built!).

DT

  
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:39:04 PM by David_Tepper »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 04:25:14 PM »
Niall,

Who got permission for that project between Nairn and Castle Stuart? Do they know anything about golf? Sounds like a disaster in the making. CS, with all the accolades, is struggling a bit, and they had top folks behind that effort and even secured the Scottish Open to give them a boost. How could someone think they are going to be successful on yet another area project given the reality of the economics up in the Highlands?

I never ceases to amaze me what some folks will attempt.

Cheers,
Kris 8)

Kris,

my impression is that CS are doing fine financial though I am 15 or so miles away so not so in touch with the local economy in the CS area. You obviously are very knowledgable about the highlands and its economy which makes me wonder which Highland town are you living in?

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 06:38:58 PM »
Niall and David,

Thanks for the info!


Jon,

I live in the U.S., but my gal is from Dornoch. I love the area, know it well, and some of the trending, particularly the golf and related development push, is NOT what that area needs. I'm not anti-development, rather "intelligent" development would characterize my take.

When you push out to 150 quid per round, right from the start as CS did, that was only 10 quid less than TWICE the price RD was at the time...rate creep of other area courses is/was certain. Some may find that welcome, but as has been witnessed EVERYWHERE else such rapid cost escalation has transpired, problems arise, with affordable living for the locals often a sad byproduct down the road.

RD is the best course up there..it ALWAYS will be. While CS had significant land and development costs, with a quality team driving the project, they lost their way on the pricing, totally skewing what had been fairly-valued golf offerings in the Highlands. Certain places, particularly an area as special as that region, need to be safeguarded from exploitation and other unrealistic development schemes.

The idea the region needs to just keep building, no matter the damage to the quality of the environment, to satisfy some folks thirst for profit centers, is insanity. That area has harsh conditions, a limited growing season, and a fragile nature to its ecosystems. There are only so many people that area can realistically support. Over-populating it WILL destroy the Highland way of life.

Somewhat sparse populations are the natural balance up there. Visiting throngs, certain times of the year, are one thing... a year-round, over-priced mob scene in the Highlands... well we can all just stay down South to sample that!

Cheers,
Kris 8)


« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:46:50 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 07:13:45 PM »
Kris,

Although you are correct with the top price at CS you will in fact find that the locals price is quite a bit less than that of RD. Indeed, some LOCALS have expressed a preference for CS over RD as it is more convenient from Inverness, more playable for the average player and offers a higher quality of all round experience. Having said that RD is a very special place.

There has been no rate creep in the area since CS opened and I am not sure how you reach such a conclusion but I am sure you will provide the facts to back up your assertion. Indeed your whole point on 'skewing' the fairly valued golf offering in the Highlands is ill informed and misguided. CS and the Scottish Open has given the area a timely boost.

It is true that the Inverness region has experienced a rapid boom in the last 15 years and due to this the inhabitants of this region now experience a diverse and rich cultural scene and higher standard/quality of life than almost any other region of the country. This advancement has been to the great benefit of the local people and I shudder to think the state the area would be in now if it had remained as it was 20 years ago.

There is a big difference between visiting an area occasionally and living there.

Jon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 01:21:35 PM »
Niall & Kris -

Here is the website for the Cawdor development between Inverness & Nairn. Clearly, it is a much larger project than just building another golf course.

http://www.cawdorcastle.com/delnies/

Latest from the Press & Journal: http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2701369

I just hope there are plans to make the A96 4-lanes all the way from Inverness to Elgin (and I hope I live long enough to see those plans actually built!).

DT

  

David,

You'll be very pleased to know that Wee Eck has promised that the A96 shall be dualled all the way from Aberdeen to Inverness by 2030 so a few more years of healthy living and playing lots of golf might should hopefully get you there  ;D

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »
Kris,

Looking at the Masterplan that DT kindly provided a link to a couple of interesting things struck me;

1 - 18 hole course routed to take into account ecological considerations in a way that Trumps development never bothered to do for example.

2 - development also includes a 9 hole short course presumably for children and beginners. Something thats not readily available locally as I'm sure you know. Its also an idea that is being greatly applauded on another thread on this site.

3 - the housing element which is not insubstantial clearly seeks to cater for a variety of house types and includes 25% affordable housing which is aimed at the low income within the local community.

4 - over 500 jobs to be created during the development.

All in all it looks like responsible and very beneficial development not only for the local landowner but for the community as a whole. So explain to me again why this is a bad thing ?

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 01:39:08 PM »
DT

The other thing I thought very interesting in the masterplan for the Cawder development was the land set aside for possible expansion of Nairn west. The loop up the top doesn't get much love although I think the downhill par 3 is a belter.  The additional land to the west could allow those holes to be replaced quite readily.

I wonder if anyone knows if there are any plans afoot ?

Niall

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 07:35:03 PM »
Niall,

It's all wonderful. I just hope they have some money set aside to help Nairn re-do their course!  ;D


Jon,

You're entitled to you view. My wife's family has lived in the Highlands for 50 years. My observations are echos more from what THEY feel and see. My takes and what I see are in concert with their views. I've been around. Sadly, I've witnessed firsthand, EXACTLY where that area is going... in other remote locales. It ain't good pards. Believe what you want.

Who's saying that 20 years of suspended animation was in order? Certainly not me! Why not re-develop in existing footprints on land that has already been altered. Why do we so often have to carve up yet more ground and push more resource consumption simply to try an extract a profit?

There will always be fierce defenders of the "progress" mantra. Let's look at our record of global stewardship with a sharp eye. Fish stocks decimated worldwide, up to 70% plus of the world's species depleted. Over-fertilized farming, to grow food for a ballooning planet populace, that leaves huge plume zones of oxygen depleted sea-water where nothing can live. Bottled water everywhere...nuff said there. Engineered food and the standard tastless, supermarket veg, accompanied by hormone laden meat and poultry. C'mon, if you think that's all good, and overtaxed resources and irresponsible development are the bedfellows of the previously mentioned...enjoy.

With respect, area course rates HAVE gone up. Only a teetering global economy has kept it from being worse. I am aware of the locals discount at CS. Remember, CS opened during the global plummet. How did that visitor rate square with what was transpiring? Visitor golfing numbers had dropped markedly during that intervening period. They are slowly on the upturn, thankfully, but make no mistake, the milk and honey days are in the distant future.

Where have daily visitor rates DROPPED ANYWHERE at a course of note in the Highlands? Worldwide, many regions elsewhere have somewhat reduced pricing to reflect the economic realities. I'm not talking stay and play discounts or other bundled, course-play schemes, I'm talking a 5-10 quid REDUCTION in the daily visitor rate. Please tell me where so I can schedule a round there when I'm across next?

I'm not mis-informed on rates or numbers; as an RD member, both, including visitor numbers, are provided to me in black and white, EVERY year. Brora, Golspie,Tain and all the rest set their rate numbers off of RD's lead. If you don't think RD's management looks at that CS rate, your're kidding yourself. It may be different on the odd year, but I've been going up there for extended stays since 1998, and that IS generally the way it trends.

My TREMENDOUS fondness for Scotland, and the Highlands in particular, is well known to all who have spent some time with me. I implore folks, particularly golfers, to make the trip to the Highlands. It's an epic place...fast losing the qualites that make it special! They better get there even quicker, because the pincers of "progress" are on the move.

Respectfully,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 08:02:23 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 05:03:14 AM »
I am not sure we can blame CS for rising green fees in northern Scotland.  I don't have a firm memory, but I know RD's green fees have shot up significantly these past 10 years and that trend was started before there was a CS.  RD is now £100 a game, when I was there last 40 or 5 years ago it was £75 or £80. For the likes of me Dornoch is on the edge of my never going back.  At the moment, partly what saves it for me is Brora.  They offer much better value to play two days there and offset the one day at Dornoch.  Plus its easy to fins another relatively cheap course nearby for another game or two.  Bottom line for me, if there was no Brora, in the near future (probably one more price hike) I wouldn't make the effort to go to Dornoch on visitor's rates. 

With all the price hiking no wonder the number of golfers is like a merry go round with one golfer falling off as one gets on.  Its the pricing structure of clubs which helps create the one and done mentality and forever keeps clubs on the lookout for new visitors.  On the other hand, so many clubs did what Dornoch is currently doing that it was only a matter of time.

I still think Dornoch missed a huge opportunity in not buying the adjacent hotel.  What is the club doing with all its cash that it was more important to not see the future of destination cubs providing an all in one experience and thus becoming a more attractive destination?

Ciao             
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 07:00:29 AM »
Sean,

No question RD's rates went up well ahead of CS's opening. That was a pure response to the extortionate escalation which was occuring in the rest of Scotland AND everywhere else in the overheated mid-2000's. Their rates were still about HALF of what the other top tier tracks in that country were charging. They are STILL about that. RD is a cheap date compared to other top courses... worldwide. It's a top 20 track in the world. Only the shortish length and the non-Open pedigree hold it down somewhat.

CS is an excellent golf course, that was well done, and NOT cheap to build. I get that. It was the quantum leap in the top rate for that region that changed the game.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 07:31:00 AM »
Kris

Looking at prices for comparable courses (my opinion of comparable), Dornoch is now high end pricing.  Take away London and Kent and the high prices become even more pronounced.  £100 is a lot of dosh to play a game and even at Dornoch's quality represents only fairly good value compared to excellent value 10 years ago - that is how much their green fee has gone up!

To me, I can't see how most superb courses can't do very well charging £65/$100.  Anything over that amount and I expect something truly out of this world.  Unfortunately - this is rarely the case.
 
Ciao
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 07:34:35 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 09:15:12 AM »
Josh

As to your initial psot, those numbers are all-inclusive (i.e. all the money that could possible be spent, including housing, hotels, etc.) and the viability of all those projects is not yet obvious.  Toi my my knowledge, the most solid of those projects is Trump's, as the golf course has already been built and will be open to general play in July.  Taymouth has a course too, but it is an old and medicore one.  The project to build a "6 Star" resort with a new course has been "underway" for most of the 20 years I have lived in Scotland.  The others, as far as I know, are still a gleam in their developers eye.  If anybody out there knows of any dirt being moved at any of them, please let me kknow.

As for the hi-jacked sub thread, here is a list of the "top" courses in Scotland, ranked by the published cost of a single mid-week round in the high season (April/May-August/September):

£190  Muirfield
£180  Turnberry
£175  Kingsbarns
£175  Troon
£170  Castle Stuart
£150  Trump
£150  Old Course
£140  Carnoustie
£130  Prestwick
£125  Western Gailes
£120  Aberdeen
£100  Dornoch
£ 93  Gullane #1
£ 90  Nairn
£ 90  North Berwick
£ 78  Murcar
£ 77  Elie
£ 70  New Course
£ 62  Machrihanish
£ 58  Lundin

Given these data points, I would not call Dornoch over-priced.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 09:19:10 AM »
The rebuilding of the Taymouth golf course is basically done and the hotel is well underway. They are spending a LOT more money on the hotel than on the golf course!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 09:39:25 AM »
Thanks, Adam

I was up in that area a little more than a month ago and didn't see much activity.  They must have been beavering away in the night!  Are they still planning to rebuild the old heap of a castle for the hotel?  Good luck to them!

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 09:55:11 AM »
Yes, the course opens this summer. They were building show homes on the estate when I was there last summer too. Castle renovation very impressive indeed. Meteor, a big London asset management company, is the investor.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 09:57:20 AM »
Castle Stuart is the best thing that has happened to golf tourism in the Highlands since the bridges were built across the Moray, Cromarty & Dornoch Firths 20-40 years ago.

P.S. The green fee at Gleneagles (for non-hotel guests) is 160 pounds.   
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 10:01:23 AM by David_Tepper »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish golf b$$m
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 10:06:06 AM »
Josh

As to your initial psot, those numbers are all-inclusive (i.e. all the money that could possible be spent, including housing, hotels, etc.) and the viability of all those projects is not yet obvious.  Toi my my knowledge, the most solid of those projects is Trump's, as the golf course has already been built and will be open to general play in July.  Taymouth has a course too, but it is an old and medicore one.  The project to build a "6 Star" resort with a new course has been "underway" for most of the 20 years I have lived in Scotland.  The others, as far as I know, are still a gleam in their developers eye.  If anybody out there knows of any dirt being moved at any of them, please let me kknow.

As for the hi-jacked sub thread, here is a list of the "top" courses in Scotland, ranked by the published cost of a single mid-week round in the high season (April/May-August/September):

£190  Muirfield
£180  Turnberry
£175  Kingsbarns
£175  Troon
£170  Castle Stuart
£150  Trump
£150  Old Course
£140  Carnoustie
£130  Prestwick
£125  Western Gailes
£120  Aberdeen
£100  Dornoch
£ 93  Gullane #1
£ 90  Nairn
£ 90  North Berwick
£ 78  Murcar
£ 77  Elie
£ 70  New Course
£ 62  Machrihanish
£ 58  Lundin

Given these data points, I would not call Dornoch over-priced.

Rich

Rich

I agree, Dornoch isn't currently over-priced, but it is trending that way and I expect that trend to continue in a high end market of over-priced golf.  Each year I have less time for these courses because in many cases I don't think they are all that much better than the next level down and in some cases these courses should be on the next level down.    

Muirfield used to be good value not all that long ago - ~£80 maybe 12 years ago.  A few years back it jumped the shark and now it is stupidly expensive.  Knock it off the list as anything remotely close to good value.  

Turnberry has always been over-priced and over-rated.  Knock it off the list.  Ditto for Troon.

I don't know about Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart and  won't pay to find out unless there are very unusual circumstances. Chuck Trump in there too.

TOC is in the same boat as Dornoch.  Just barely holding its head above my tolerance level.  Same for R Aberdeen.  

Carnoustie is a no go for me.  Never liked the course, but I did respect when it was under £100.  

I would pay to play Prestwick again, along with Brora and North Berwick its one of my favourites in Scotland.

Gullane #1 - was always over-priced and over-rated - knock it off the list.

Nairn I like and could see myself paying the dosh for airport convenience if necessary.

North Berwick I like a ton and would pay the rate,  but it too has gone a bit loopy riding the tails of Muirfield.

I wouldn't pay the green fee for Murcar.

I would certainly give Elie a go as I have never played it.

The New Course is squirting my tolerance level.  Probably one more price hike and I will lose interest.

I like Machrihanish, but its prices have doubled!  I would play it again if inclined to see Mach Dunes, but I am not itching to get back.

Lundin - no thanks.  


Ciao




 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing