Hickory Golf - Confession and Related Rules Question

[Kevin Lynch]

"Hello, my name is Kevin, and I'm a Hickory Golf Addict."

Finally made the switch this weekend, and I can't believe how much I loved the hickory version of the game.  I felt completely unburdened about expectations of how I "should" score, and simply enjoyed the fun of shotmaking.  I'm so excited, because several courses in the area that may have been "too short" have now been re-activated in my rota.

I wrote a few passionate articles about my conversion, if you're interested:

http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/hickory-golf-gettin-jigger-with-it/


However, I do have a related rules question that I'm sure one of you may know (or have a lead).

I am playing with Tad Moore Replica Irons (Star OA Irons), and Mike Just's Louisville Woods (Jack White Replica).   I love the Mike Just Driver so much, that I'm considering carrying it in my "normal" bag as a 3 wood.  My buddy loved the Star OA Niblick so much, that he's considering replacing his Taylor Made A Wedge.

However, when I show up to my USGA-member club, I know I'll be asked if I can legally mix in some hickory-shafted clubs with my modern versions. 

I looked on the USGA Site for under Rules & Decisions for "Clubs" and couldn't find anything specific.  I vaguely recall and instance last summer where a high-level hickory player was prohibited from using his clubs in an Australian PGA event.  However, it's possible the latter instance may have been a "Condition of Competition" restriction, and not a standing USGA/R&A Rule prohibition.

I imagine some very old hickory replicas may have non-conforming grooves (or no grooves), but my specific clubs seem fairly "normal" (except for the shafts).

Any ideas / leads?

[Andy Stamm]

I believe that he (the player in the Australian PGA) wasn't able to use the clubs because the grooves were hand stamped and "unlikely to be parallel." From what I understand, there was no objective measurement test. It seemed to me that they just found some rule that might apply and pre-emptively banned the clubs, which of course is ridiculous.

So, if that's all they could come up with, that would imply that hickory clubs don't face too many obstacles. And I think his were originals, not replicas which might not have that same problem.

I don't have 'the answer,' but I'd put in my due diligence and then sleep easily, because I think confirmation may be hard to come by. Many players assuredly have non-conforming clubs (e.g. an OEM driver that is just a little too hot), but if they don't know or have reason to suspect it, I don't see a problem. Tom Watson won a few majors with non-comforming clubs (including the duel in the sun, I think), but that was only discovered afterword, so there's no taking back the title or black mark.

What about your handicap? Do you report rounds the same as always? If you do, and then for a big event you break out the new clubs, you might be able to bet your handicap by some margin. I know you won't be intentionally gaming the system, but the effect would be the same.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kevin,
The USGA has a database of conforming irons and wedges.
http://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/intro.html

If a club isn't on the list it doesn't necessarily mean it's non-conforming, it does mean that you must have prior testing done or rely on the event having on-site ability to test it, if the question comes up about its conformance.

[Mac Plumart]

Welcome to the club!

[Kevin Lynch]

I believe that he (the player in the Australian PGA) wasn't able to use the clubs because the grooves were hand stamped and "unlikely to be parallel." From what I understand, there was no objective measurement test. It seemed to me that they just found some rule that might apply and pre-emptively banned the clubs, which of course is ridiculous.

So, if that's all they could come up with, that would imply that hickory clubs don't face too many obstacles. And I think his were originals, not replicas which might not have that same problem.

I don't have 'the answer,' but I'd put in my due diligence and then sleep easily, because I think confirmation may be hard to come by. Many players assuredly have non-conforming clubs (e.g. an OEM driver that is just a little too hot), but if they don't know or have reason to suspect it, I don't see a problem. Tom Watson won a few majors with non-comforming clubs (including the duel in the sun, I think), but that was only discovered afterword, so there's no taking back the title or black mark.

What about your handicap? Do you report rounds the same as always? If you do, and then for a big event you break out the new clubs, you might be able to bet your handicap by some margin. I know you won't be intentionally gaming the system, but the effect would be the same.

Andy - thanks for the input.  Your statement gave me a lead, and my irons would be non-conforming because the grooves aren't parallel (verified with Tad Moore last night).  But Tad said that most of the woods would conform with the rules.

I think the issue isn't so much the shafts, as much as the old style of grooves.


As for your handicap question, I had thought of that.  I found some guidance that scores with wooden shafts would be allowed for handicap purposes as long as it wasn't an attempt to "inflate" your handicap or weren't related to a "wooden-shaft only" event.  I copied the below from a .PDF put out by the New Hampshire Golf Association


Acceptability of Scores: Hickory Shaft Clubs

Q: Are scores made using wooden-shafted clubs acceptable for handicap purposes?

A: In certain situations, yes. If the player elects to use a conforming club with a
wooden shaft, that score is acceptable for handicap purposes. If the player’s
Handicap Committee feels that the player is manipulating its scoring record due to
the use of atypical equipment, and that player’s Handicap Index® doesn’t represent
its potential ability, then the Handicap Committee must take action under Section 8-
4c of the manual.

However, if the use of a wooden-shafted club is a condition of the competition, the
score is not acceptable for handicap purposes according to Section 5-1f(v).

[Andy Stamm]

Kevin,

Glad that helped. That seems to be a real negative of the grove rules. I for one would like to see new rules not make existing clubs non-comforming, especially clubs that don't offer a competitive advantage. But I guess that ship has sailed.

Like I said I know you're not intending to manipulate your handicap, but that will be the effect. It's really a deficiency in the handicap system, but I do understand that it can't be perfect. I play a lot with persimmons. The clubs definitely conform, and I report my scores. This inflates my scores and would put my competitors at a disadvantage, but that's not why I do it. And I can't think of a better solution, and all 'fixes' would run afoul of the rules/spirit of the rules anyway. Oh well.

If you wanted to, I'd bet that you could get conforming irons.

Have fun!

PS- I dealt with Tad a few times, and he's a great guy. I had the pleasure of hitting a driver of his once, and it was a fantastic club. I hit it further than my persimmon, in fact (not that the two clubs are that different). Mike did some work on that persimmon driver of mine actually, and he was great, too. They're both really nice guys and very knowledgable. To be honest, they're representative of that community, which is full of such generous souls.

[Kevin Lynch]

Hi Andy,

It was great talking to both Mike & Tad during this process - they were very helpful in answering many questions.  It's definitely a special part of the hickory experience having a voice and name of the person who made your specific club.  I hope to meet some of these gentlemen over the years, as I joined the Society of Hickory Golfers yesterday.

I bought my wood set from Mike, but also picked up a used Tad Moore driver from a local hickory player.  So far, I'm liking the Tad Moore driver off the tee a little better, as the Louisville has a little too much loft.  But, the Louisville Driver is excellent off the fairway and is now my "brassie/spoon." 


RE: Handicaps
I guess it's simply our own personal honor whether we feel rounds played with "alternative" equipment is truly reflective of our playing potential for handicap purposes.  If I just have a handful of Persimmon/Blades rounds, I may submit those for handicap (since many scores are thrown out for handicap purposes, anyway).  But if I knew they were having a measurable impact on my index, I probably would limit the amount.

With my hickories, I know they aren't conforming, so I don't have the issue.  But I am maintaining a separate "hickory only" index on the SoHG site.

[Andy Stamm]

It is great to talk to the people who made your clubs, especially when they physically made them, rather than with a computer and just gluing them together. But be warned, I can tell you that the next step is to work with them before they've made the club, to get the the club just exactly how you want it!

As for the handicap, the problem is, if I play a round according to the rules of golf, I'm supposed to report it. I don't think there's much wiggle room for me no to even for an 'honorable' reason like not inflating my handicap. I don't play a lot of big money games, etc. so it doesn't really matter, but it does get tricky.

[Kevin Lynch]

As for the handicap, the problem is, if I play a round according to the rules of golf, I'm supposed to report it. I don't think there's much wiggle room for me no to even for an 'honorable' reason like not inflating my handicap. I don't play a lot of big money games, etc. so it doesn't really matter, but it does get tricky.

I guess that just gets back to the whole debate of what is more important - the "Letter" of the Law, or the "Spirit" of the Law.

The ultimate goal the Handicap System is to measure your playing potential.  If I know that I have a significant performance variation between different sets of clubs, I would rather honor the spirit of that goal, even if it involves not following the 100% letter of the law (i.e. reporting every round).  And I think the handicap system recognizes the "bigger picture" when it allows Handicap Chairmen latitude in adjusting handicaps when they believe the index is not indicative of ability.


But, like you, I don't play in too many events where the index is paramount - I prefer social games.  Besides, with the high beta inherent in my game, my index is usually moot on any given day.   

[Jud_T]

shouldn't you carry a separate handicap for hickories?

[Mike Policano]

Kevin,

Welcome to hickories. Go to the Metropolitan Hickory Society website. Www.hickoryplayersclub.com. We are holding monthly tournaments at Golden Era courses in the New York City metropolitan area. Our first in May ar Ridgewood Country Club is sold out.

Cheers, Mike

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

Welcome to hickories. Go to the Metropolitan Hickory Society website. Www.hickoryplayersclub.com. We are holding monthly tournaments at Golden Era courses in the New York City metropolitan area. Our first in May ar Ridgewood Country Club is sold out.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the info, Mike.  Buffalo to NYC is a bit of a hike, but there may be a possibility of getting out for one the Met events.

I'm hoping to find some other hickory players in Western New York (perhaps at some old school clubs like CCB or I may venture towards Oak Hill in Rochester).  I roped my primary playing partner into buying a set as well, so I have at least one other person to share this with.  There also is a decent player here named Greg Vogelsang, who won the Vermont Hickory Open last year, and he has been very helpful during this conversion (we test drove all his clubs before making a decision).

This year is the Centennial of the 1912 US Open held at the former Country Club of Buffalo (now Grover Cleveland Municipal).  Our Country Executive is an avid Golfer, and he organized the Erie County Championship to be contested at the course in connection with the centennial (but only with modern equipment and with a handicap max).  However, I'm trying to convince him to add a "Hickory Division" to the event.  if not, I may try to arrange some type of Hickory Tournament on my own (which may be biting off far more than I want to chew).


Honestly, I feel like I'm just discovering the sport all over again.  The hickory experience has far exceeded even my highest expectations.

[Kevin Lynch]

shouldn't you carry a separate handicap for hickories?

Without a doubt, especially since many of the hickory clubs would be non-conforming for USGA (but are accepted for SoHG).  I am maintaining my "hickory only" scores through the SoHG Website.


However, the question coming up from Andy is whether or not rounds played with wooden shafted clubs (which still conform to USGA requirements) should be turned in for USGA Handicap purposes.  In a strict reading, the rounds would be allowed (if not mandated) to be counted for USGA purposes, unless they are being utilized to artificially inflate handicaps.  In essence, can you use "inferior" equipment for your handicap index?  A similar discussion could be had for people who play with persimmons / blades on an intermittent basis (but use most modern equipment for tournaments).

[Jim_Kennedy]

It seems fairly clear, don't post scores that are achieved by using equipment that doesn't reflect your potential ability.

Q: Are scores made using wooden-shafted clubs acceptable for handicap purposes?

A: In certain situations, yes. If the player elects to use a conforming club with a wooden shaft, that score is acceptable for handicap purposes. If the player’s Handicap Committee feels that the player is manipulating its scoring record due to the use of atypical equipment, and that player’s Handicap Index® doesn’t represent its potential ability, then the Handicap Committee must take action under Section 8-4c of the manual. However, if the use of a wooden-shafted club is a condition of the competition, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes according to Section 5-1f(v).