The Second Nine

[Jim Johnson]

Give me the back nine at the Masters any day over a U.S. Open ... what drama ... game on indeed ... eagles & birdies, wow ... beats pars and bogies at a U.S. Open, that's for sure ... Amen Corner ... the 2nd shot at #15 ... the tee shot at 16. Not to mention the greens, especially #14.

Having said that, it's almost a let down, to me, with 17 and 18. Not sure why, but it almost seems like the excitement ends on the 16th green. Hmmm. Difficult par 4's perhaps? Slim chance at a birdie? Conversely, the leader can always screw things up on 17 and/or 18 I guess.

Thoughts?

Jim

[Mac Plumart]

Tom Doak made some great comments about the routing/pacing of tournament venues and he specifically mentioned the ramping of drama at certain times and he referenced the back nine at Augusta.  Perhaps searching for and bumping that thread would be a good diea.

[John Kavanaugh]

Really?

[John Kavanaugh]

Two of my favorite shots of all time, one by Norman the other by Lyle, occurred on the 18th. We will most likely see another just as memorable today.

[Kevin Pallier]

Having said that, it's almost a let down, to me, with 17 and 18. Not sure why, but it almost seems like the excitement ends on the 16th green.

Jim

I think all the holes on the B9 create wonderfull drama. The combination of tiers and pin placements on sections of greens create a fine line between success and failure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

After 76 years of fine tuning, they'd better get it right.

Both Oosty and Bubba were lucky on both # 17 and # 10.

On both holes they could have found themselves in the same situation Phil found himself in on # 4.

[noonan]

I will take the 17/18th holes at Augusta anytime......there are no rinsed balls or train wrecks to determine the winner.

The best tournament in the world.

Remember the disgust at Dufners rinsed ball on 17 or 18 in the PGA last year...not a good ending

[Phil McDade]

Tom Doak made some great comments about the routing/pacing of tournament venues and he specifically mentioned the ramping of drama at certain times and he referenced the back nine at Augusta.  Perhaps searching for and bumping that thread would be a good diea.

Here it is:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.0.html

[mike_beene]

Calling 13 and 15 par 5s instead of par 4s which the USGA might do is brilliant marketing because it interjects artificial lead changes which makes for great spectating even if the players don't change how they play the holes.

[Tim_Cronin]

Four 4.5s on the back: 10, 11, 13 and 15. Maybe 18 as well if the wind is out of the north coming down that chute.

That means action on the leaderboard.

[Jim Nugent]

Calling 13 and 15 par 5s instead of par 4s which the USGA might do is brilliant marketing because it interjects artificial lead changes which makes for great spectating even if the players don't change how they play the holes.

Average score on 13, all-time, is 4.8.  Average on 15 is 4.79.  I'm guessing those would be the highest-scoring par 4's in modern pro golf history.  So are the lead changes really artificial, or are these simply exciting par 5s that reward the brave who execute -- while punishing those who don't?  Cantlay, e.g., scored a 9 on 13 yesterday.  One reason he shot 72, even though he made 5 birdies and 2 eagles. 

I wonder if the players would change how they play the holes, if both were par 4s. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

If there's one course where all time scores or scoring averages are irrelevant, it's got to be ANGC.

The course is both reactive and proactive.

And, the holes, while retaining their position in the routing, have gone through various iterations over the years.

In 1999 ANGC was about 6,900, now it's about 7,500.  That's a big difference.

Add to that the alterations to the fairways/roughs and off fairway areas and a number of the holes play differently.

Tim,

When you add in H2O on 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16, the drama heightens.

I like the fact that the Pros aren't hitting wedges into # 15 and # 18.

Distance puts pressure on us all and ANGC has been ahead of the curve in retaining the challenge for the best golfers in the world.

[David_Tepper]

I know there are some here who do not like water hazards, but does anyone think that the back nine at AGNC would be half as dramatic without them?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jim,

It's difficult to critique a golf course in the way I think you're looking at, and thinking about Augusta.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me you're trying to analyze the course as if it were a 'blank slate' situation to begin with, which theoretically would allow the 17th and 18th to have been designed in the same vein as 12 through 16. That's simply not the case in reality. In other words, the 17th and 18th pretty much have to be as they are in many ways to have allowed for creation of those more 'exciting' holes on the back nine at Augusta... simply to get back to the clubhouse!

Personally though, I kinda see your point. If I had more of a 'blank slate' situation to design a tournament course, I know I'd think about the Old Course. I prefer that two hole finish, with the last presenting a very legimiate chance for birdie to the golfer one shot back with one hole to play.

[John Kirk]

I know there are some here who do not like water hazards, but does anyone think that the back nine at AGNC would be half as dramatic without them?

Hi David,

Especially Rae's Creek on #13.  That's how to use a creek to build a golf hole.

[Jim Johnson]

Risk/reward = Excitement.

From what I see, the Back Nine at Augusta has "risk/reward" in spades. Hole 11 ... the pond challenges the golfer on the approach shot, particularly with a left-side pin position. Hole 12 ... Rae's Creek challenges the golfer, particularly with a right-side pin position (farther distance/longer club). Hole 13 ... the tributary challenges the golfer, daring him to go for the green in two (albeit these days, it's not nearly the challenge it once was). Hole 15 ... the pond challenges the golfer, daring him to go for the green in two (and again, it's not nearly the challenge it once was). Hole 16, I think is more about where to hit the tee shot to take advantage of the slope of the green to move the ball toward the hole. Hole 17 ... risk/reward? Hole 18 ... risk/reward? With smashing it down the middle as far as possible, I just don't see risk/reward on these last two holes. Tell me I'm missing something.

If we take Jeff's "blank slate" literally, it would be interesting reading what others would feel would make for the "best" finishing hole at Augusta, assuming it was anything but hole 18 as it stands now. I'd vote for #13.  

Jim

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jim,

Where would the clubhouse be if #13 was the finishing hole

These days, #11 is one of the most one-dimensional holes on the course - new trees down the right side of the fairway force tee shots left, which - as you say - brings the pond more into play than ever before. This is penal architecture in many ways. Where's the 'risk/reward'?

I disagree that #13 is 'not nearly the challenge it once was'. I think you've seen the fairway area and green there, right? I don't care what ball(s) or clubs you're using - today's or 1930's era stuff - this is a very, very challenging hole. The world's best golfers simply make it look as though it's not as difficult as it is, or 'once was' on TV during the Masters.

Same with #15. This is a very one-dimensional hole for 99% of golfers - and super difficult, for all, too. None of us are going to go for the green in two, which day after day would leave a short approach from a severe downhill lie to 'that' green. Not easy... and, I only see the so-called 'risk/reward' element really coming into play for the Tour pros.  

Moreover, if you think the 252-yard second shot Kuchar played to the 15th green yesterday wasn't 'challenging', we have a different perspective on things  

As for #17 and #18, I've never really understood the term 'risk/reward' - entirely. These might not be the best holes at Augusta, but I will say, there are a number of different hole locations on both of these very challenging greens that call for some tremendous shot-making to make birdies, any day. I think the 17th green, in particular, is 'under-rated'.

Again, it's easy to nit-pick holes - the real question is, how would you have looked at that virgin property - that was Fruitland Nursery - with its boundaries, fixed clubhouse location and other restrictions, and come up with with a better finish while at the same time including all of those back nine holes that you love?

[Phil McDade]

Jeff:

To me, "risk/reward" means a roughly equal number of birdies to bogeys on a hole, and -- just as importantly -- a high volume of both birdies and bogeys. In short, the hole must tempt, not merely be balanced between under- and over-par scores. See the thread I started on the 12th at Augusta regarding how that hole has emerged -- to my way of thinking -- as a very good risk/reward par 3.

Statistics from this year's Masters suggest there isn't much "risk" anymore to Augusta's back nine par 5s, exciting as they may be for tournament play. Birdies/eagles outnumber bogeys/others by about a 3:1 ratio at #13, and nearly 4:1 at #15 -- no reason one shouldn't be aggressive on those holes. Rather, I think those holes should be viewed as "half-par" holes, where the outcome is just about as likely to be a birdie as a par (average score at 13 -- 4.73; at 15 -- 4.67). By the same token, the 1st hole is not really a risk/reward hole; it's just a beast, and appropriately could be considered a half-par hole (average score this year at #1 -- 4.39, or the hardest hole on the course).

[Jim Johnson]

Jeff, I had such a good reply, then went to click "Post" and found I'd timed out. 

Maybe I'll just text you tomorrow 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Mingay,

In that vein, regarding # 18, do you want an 18th hole where a golfer can "limp" in, or where he has to continue to play exceptional golf ?

Hard call.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Pat,

I prefer an 18th hole that requires exceptional golf, and will also yield a birdie to exceptional golf. I don't like to see golfers 'limp in' and lose a tournament because of the architecture/set-up.

[Phil McDade]

The 18th played as the 3rd most difficult hole during the tournament, with a scoring average of 4.3 -- a pretty tough closer.

Interestingly, however, it played as only the 9th most difficult hole on the final day, with a scoring average of 4.16. I did hear some comments from players after the first two rounds (where scoring averages tend to be higher, because it includes everyone, not just those playing well who made the cut) that the wind played a big role in making 18 play longer those days.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Green Jackets refer to their "back  nine" as the Second Nine.

[Jeff_Mingay]

The Green Jackets refer to their "back  nine" as the Second Nine.

Great point, Steve. Jim might want to change the title of this thread, otherwise he may never be allowed back at ANGC... like McCord

[Sean Leary]

Is it me or were there more balls in the trees on 18 than I ever remember before? Especially the first 3 days?