[Patrick_Mucci]

WHY hasn't the hole been copied/replicated more often ?

Dick Wilson made a reasonably good version at # 13 at Pine Tree, but there seems to be a paucity of replicas.

Are modern day architects fearful of producing replicas ?

With all the exposure the hole has gotten over the years, why hasn't there been a greater demand for replicas ?

With earth moving equipment available after 1948 why don't more courses have a replica of # 12 ?

[Sven Nilsen]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49515.0.html

Discussed in this thread, and the template was named.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

The thread you cited doesn't begin to discuss the questions I posed

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Augusta's 12th is not an easy hole to replicate [correctly] because you have to have two features:  a steep bank behind the green, and a water feature in front that you can work right to the edge of.  The latter would probably have to be a man-made pond nowadays, because nearly all states would have a buffer zone on Rae's Creek so you couldn't build a green that close.

And even if I had those features to work with, I would be unlikely to build a green that's less than 40 feet wide, on a diagonal to the tee.  Most golfers can't play a hole like that.

[Steve Salmen]

Pat,

I've not played it but I understand how part of it's significance is the change in distance and forced with respect to hole location.  The right handed golfer must be particularly precise, the left handed player not nearly so (provided the target is the middle of the green).

Butler National ourside Chicago has several greens that slope from either back right to front left or back left to front right.  The fourth hole would be a good example.  I wish I had the skills to show the green area from the sky but like #12, the green runs from back right to front left.  There is a large bunker just short of the green to gather imprecise shots. 

As fan and a fan of Phil Mickelson, I was particularly disappointed in 2009, when during the final round he was the only player in contention to go in the water.  As the only left handed player in contention, he wasted his advantage in one of the most exciting Masters I remember.  Granted he's also made 2 twice during final rounds to go on to win.

[Mark Saltzman]

Is the 12th really one of the great par-3s in golf, or is it just a great hole for the very best players in the world?  It seems the precision demands are very high for anyone but a scratch golfer or better and the penalty for any traditional righty miss is severe.

I suspect it is not replicated because most golfers would not enjoy it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

The thread you cited doesn't begin to discuss the questions I posed

Pat:

Perhaps I should have said that the thread had information on a handful of the "replicas" that do exist.  There are several holes noted in that thread that contain the same or similar features as the 12th at Augusta, including the 16th at the Club at Bond Head North, the 12th at Muirfield Village, the 5th at Pebble, the redesigned 16th at the Cal Club, the 11th at Butler (as noted by Steve Salmen), the 8th at Sebonack and the 17th at The Ocean Course.

The thread also contains a theory that the 12th at Augusta may have been based on the 4th at Deal (although the current configuration of that hole came about in 1938) and that MacKenzie had designed a few holes in Scotland with the same basic features, including the 3rd at Pitreavie and the 7th at Stoke Park.

To answer the specific questions:

It is one of the great par 3's in golf, but only due to its role in the Master's and as others have said only as a test of skill at the highest level.  Its a true test of nerve, and provides a tremendous amount of drama for a hole of 155 yards.

It hasn't been replicated too often because most courses are designed to be played by all levels of golfers, unlike ANGC which has evolved into a tournament course.  It is simply too penal of a hole for the average player.

Not sure what you mean by modern day architects, but the trend towards taking what the land offers is a general movement away from building replicas.  For a while, there were replica courses popping up everywhere.  That trend has seemed to have faded away.

Here's an article discussing five other replicas in detail:  http://brianmccallen.com/golf/golf/270/almost-augusta-clones-of-the-twelfth. 

For your last two questions, there has been a demand and the creation of those replicas is certainly easier using modern day equipment.  The interesting question to me is how those replicas may have been built to provide a bit more playability.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the 12th really one of the great par-3s in golf,

Yes

or is it just a great hole for the very best players in the world? 

It's also a great hole for the very best players in the world.

It seems the precision demands are very high for anyone but a scratch golfer or better and the penalty for any traditional righty miss is severe.
Not really.
The hole is only 145 from the members tees and 155 from the Masters tees.
Missing the green right is no big deal.
Being short or long is worse

The green at # 13 at Pine Tree is a more difficult target from the back tee at about 159. 

I suspect it is not replicated because most golfers would not enjoy it.

Just the opposite is true.
At 145, power is not a prerequisite, hence it's an enjoyable hole for the average golfer who is faced with far too many 180-220 par 3's

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Offsets from waterways have to be a modern day architectural disadvantage, a crimp in creativity, but with modern day equipment, creating a large berm as a backdrop shouldn't be a difficult task.

Dick Wilson substituted sand for fronting water on # 13 at Pine Tree and it came out quite well.

Steve,

Could you explain  how a lefty has an advantage over a righty on # 12 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

The thread you cited doesn't begin to discuss the questions I posed

Pat:

Perhaps I should have said that the thread had information on a handful of the "replicas" that do exist.  There are several holes noted in that thread that contain the same or similar features as the 12th at Augusta, including the 16th at the Club at Bond Head North, the 12th at Muirfield Village, the 5th at Pebble, the redesigned 16th at the Cal Club, the 11th at Butler (as noted by Steve Salmen), the 8th at Sebonack and the 17th at The Ocean Course.

I don't see any resemblance between # 5 at PBGC, # 8 at Sebonack and # 12 at ANGC.
I'm not familiar enough with the other holes to draw a conclusion

The thread also contains a theory that the 12th at Augusta may have been based on the 4th at Deal (although the current configuration of that hole came about in 1938) and that MacKenzie had designed a few holes in Scotland with the same basic features, including the 3rd at Pitreavie and the 7th at Stoke Park.

That may or may not be a reasoned theory.

To answer the specific questions:

It is one of the great par 3's in golf, but only due to its role in the Master's and as others have said only as a test of skill at the highest level.

Have the others who have said that, who have positing that it's only a great hole for the most skilled golfers EVER played the hole ?

Its a true test of nerve, and provides a tremendous amount of drama for a hole of 155 yards.

It does the same thing from 145 yards

It hasn't been replicated too often because most courses are designed to be played by all levels of golfers, unlike ANGC which has evolved into a tournament course.  It is simply too penal of a hole for the average player.

The Masters is only conducted on four (4) days per year.
Do the members skip # 12 during their rounds ?

Have you ever played ANGC ?

The course is clearly playable and enjoyable by all levels of golfers from the Members tees, which play all of 6,365 yards.

The misguided notion that ANGC can't be played, enjoyed or appreciated by all levels of golfers is so ridiculous that it's beyond belief.


Not sure what you mean by modern day architects, but the trend towards taking what the land offers is a general movement away from building replicas. 

"taking what the land offers" is site dependent and not an architectural trend.

In addition, crafting a template and "taking what the land offers" are not mutually exclusive.
The Redan at Hidden Creek proves that

For a while, there were replica courses popping up everywhere.

When in the last 50 years have replica course been popping up everywhere ?
Could you name ten (10) ? 

That trend has seemed to have faded away.

When did that happen ?

Here's an article discussing five other replicas in detail:  http://brianmccallen.com/golf/golf/270/almost-augusta-clones-of-the-twelfth. 

Those are replica COURSES, courses where all of the holes are replicas, or theme courses.
I'm referencing replica HOLES on a non-themed course, like the 13th hole at Pine Tree

For your last two questions, there has been a demand and the creation of those replicas is certainly easier using modern day equipment. 
The interesting question to me is how those replicas may have been built to provide a bit more playability.

Replicas are "inherently" playable, so I'm not sure I understand the incremental improvement in playability with how modern day replicas are built.
Could you expand on your statement using Redans, shorts, bottles and Edens ?

Sven

[Steve Salmen]

Pat,

The hole favors better left handed players because their misses tend to be long right or short left.  That is the shape of the twelfth green from the tee.  Right handed players tend to miss long left or short right, neither of which are good on #12.  I did qualify by saying the advantage is if the target is the center of the green.  Bad things can happen to anyone going aggressively at a flag and missing.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Let's break the 12th down to its key components:

-a 8 or 9-iron par 3 (for most) with a green angled from left to right
-a central fronting bunker
-a tough recovery from behind the green
-the inability to bounce the ball into the green (whether due to a water hazard or otherwise)

There have been a slew of golf holes built since 1934 that have these attributes.  Of those listed, some may come closer to matching these four components, but they are all at least variations on the theme.  It is no secret that Nicklaus thinks the 12th is one of the toughest par 3's ever built, and has borrowed the concept in a few of his designs (including MV).  It would not surprise me in the least if he had the hole in mind when coming up with the new 5th at PB or the 8th at Sebonack (TD may have a bit more information on this).

From the date of construction of the 4th at Deal, it is fairly evident that that hole was not the inspiration for the 12th.  But MacKenzie had previously built several similar holes, so it is not hard to surmise that the 12th was not a novel concept in his mind when constructed.  What I find interesting is that on a course where he tried to incorporate ground game options as much as possible, he built the 12th and the 15th, two holes where this option was entirely eliminated.

This leads to the penal nature of the 12th.  As nerve-wracking as it is from 155 for the pros, it must be pure terror for a mid- to high- handicapper from 145.  Its not a do or die hole like the 12th at Sawgrass, but it is a hole that requires a minimum carry.  I have no doubt that the bulk of ANGC is a lot of fun to play from the Members Tees (and to answer your question I have not had the honor), but the 12th is not like the rest of the course in this regard.  Not that there is anything inherently wrong in having one or two holes that provide a high level of challenge. But to say the course is clearly playable and enjoyable for all levels of golfers without pointing out that these types of holes are present is too simplistic of a statement.  There's probably a great deal of enjoyment had by walking the same course that you've seen on television.  There's also probably a great deal of fun in trying the shots that you've seen the pros hit, including at the 12th.  It has to be a blast to hit and hold the 12th from 145 or 155 yards.  But going to your bag to pull out another Titleist is probably no fun at all.

Here's a short list of replica courses built in the last 50 years:

Golden Ocala (1986)
Grand Cypress New Course (1988)
Cypresswood Tradition Course (1988)
Boyne Ross Memorial Course (1989)
Tour 18 Course (1992)
Royal Links (199)
Tribute at the Colony (2000)
World Tour Golf Links (1999)
Angel Park (1990)
Oakhurst (1998)
Sandhollow - The Links (2008)
Bear's Best (2002)
Renditions Golf Club (2002)
Wooden Sticks (2002?)

Just a guess, but the idea of replica courses coincided with the heights of the latest course construction bubble.  With a ton of courses being built, the replica idea represented a niche market, giving the player the ability to experience many of the toughest, greatest and most widely known golf holes, including in some cases the 12th at Augusta.  I look at it purely as a marketing ploy.  Instead of building a new design, why not build holes that every player would want to experience but could not, whether due to access, cost or location.

To examine why these types of courses aren't being built with the frequency that they were in the 1980's and 90's is an exercise in examining the changes in the golf construction business in general.  Call it the Keiser effect.  There's been a steady paradigm shift from the glossy to the jagged, from high dollar projects to the found course.  With minimalism being the buzzword of the day and the average builder of a course paying a bit more attention to the bottom line, we're seeing more Greywalls, Hidden Creeks and Steamsongs and fewer Shadow Creeks.  Under the new model, the occasional Redan, Cape or Alps style hole does get built, but only where the qualities of those holes was already evident on the ground.  I'd bet that if the components of the 12th at Augusta presented themselves on the right site, that style of hole would be built as well.  With a few rare exceptions, the courses being built today are not being built as tournament course.  Thus it is highly likely that any such "replica" would be a bit softer than the 12th at Augusta, a better fit for a course played regularly by members or paying customers.

One last point.  When I was discussing the changes made in a replica that would make it more playable, I was specifically referring to replicas of the 12th at Augusta.  I don't have the answer to this question, but I'd bet that the copies that have been built have features that make them a bit easier for the average player.  Perhaps the recovery from behind is a bit easier, or there's a bit more room in the front for a miss.  The point was that these holes are being built for the consumer golfer, not the professional.  And they're probably being built to provide the 12th at Augusta experience, with a little less bite.

[Carson Pilcher]

The other key element that has not been discussed and cannot be replicated is the tall pines surrounding the green and closer to the tee on the left.  They create a swirling effect of the wind making it nearly impossible to determine the correct wind and direction.  Thus it places a seed of doubt in the player's mind, hence making the 155-yard shot even more difficult.

[JESII]

Is the 12th really one of the great par-3s in golf,

Yes

Pat,

What is it about the 12th hole that makes it one of the great par 3's in golf?

[Andy Troeger]

Sven,
I think your analysis of the hole misses arguably its most critical component--the shallow nature of the green. The angle and the hazards are far more prominent because the target is so small. If that green had any kind of normal depth, it wouldn't be fearful for the pros and it would be a regular par three over water.

Most of those holes you named don't look close in terms of replication. The Muirfield Village hole does get some of the components, but its still pretty different. The holes at Butler, Kiawah, and Pebble aren't close IMO. Perhaps that was the intent, but if so I'll admit that I don't think it worked. They are good enough holes, just not close replicas.

Pat,
If there's a single reason why the hole hasn't been replicated I do think its the size of the green. Enlarging the green with a 150 yard shot makes any replica less interesting, but it would be nearly impossible to maintain a green that tiny on a hole that short on a course that would get a large amount of play, so its not practical for resorts.  Private clubs with limited play could make it work, but you'd still need the land or the willingness to create it to make it work.

I do think there have been MANY attempts to copy the themes of the 12th at Augusta, however. Its just that this particular hole needs all of the factors to really make it work, and most of the copies miss at least one important component.

[Tim Gavrich]

Without having played it, I would imagine that the 12th at ANGC benefits from a synergy that may be geographically unique.  Andy's point that the diminutive size of the green precludes constant great conditioning if the course gets more than a little daily play seems quite important.

When I've read lore about the 12th, a major factor in the difficulty of the hole seems to be the unpredictable wind patterns.  I believe the April issue of Golf Digest has a protracted explanation of why and how the winds swirl and accentuate the difficulty of the hole and it seems to me that one could certainly replicate the earthbound features of the hole down to the slope of the bank of Rae's Creek.  But recreating the geographical and, I'm sure, meteorological features that cause the hole to be feared by the best players in the world, must be a great deal more difficult, if not virtually impossible.

[Brent Hutto]

I believe the fifth hole at my home course (Columbia Country Club in Blythewood, SC) must have been consciously modeled on the 12th at ANGC. It's a pond instead of a creek and presumably as a concession to "every level of golfer" it was softened by making the green much larger and the bank between the hazard and the front left of the green is a bit wider. Also the front bunker takes up more of the center and right embankment.

But we've got the same steep backdrop, including an azalea bed on the left. We have the feared back bunker, the green pitches forward toward the water, the angles are quite similar and even the regular men's tee plays around 155 yards to the center of the green. And the winds definitely swirl, requiring both local experience and usually lucky guesswork to judge correctly on a breezy day.

But with the green roughly twice as wide and twice as deep as Augusta's it's a relative pushover. For us lefty golfers there's a bail-out available on the left side that's not scary at all (and the carry is only maybe 125-130 yards over there) but right-handed swingers do have the problem of fades coming up short in bunker or water and pulls/hooks finding the back bunker or even the azalea bed. Still, I lose fewer golf balls and make fewer big numbers there in a year than I would in a dozen rounds playing the 12th at ANGC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The hole favors better left handed players because their misses tend to be long right or short left.  That is the shape of the twelfth green from the tee.  Right handed players tend to miss long left or short right, neither of which are good on #12.  I did qualify by saying the advantage is if the target is the center of the green.  Bad things can happen to anyone going aggressively at a flag and missing.

Steve,

Are you basing the above comments on your play of the hole ?
Have you ever played the hole ?

If not, how can you claim that left handed players miss long right or short left, and that right handed players miss long left or short right ?

What's the basis for your general, statistical statement ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the 12th really one of the great par-3s in golf,

Yes

Pat,

What is it about the 12th hole that makes it one of the great par 3's in golf?


Jim, if you don't know by now, I doubt that my analysis would shed any light upon the substance and quality of the hole.

[JESII]

Pat,

My sole experience(s) with the hole are through watching the best players in the game play it under tournament conditions. I can certainly formulate an opinion on that basis, but I am open to experienced input.

For starters, the hole looks like it would be brutally penal for an level player that cannot predictably hit lofted shots from the tee that carry 140 yards. The exception would be if the banks are substantially softer and the grass kept much longer during the non-tournament days. These two maintenance practices could keep a great number of balls out of the water that go into it during tournament week. Is the course kept substantially softer and slower during the other months of their golf season?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

My sole experience(s) with the hole are through watching the best players in the game play it under tournament conditions. I can certainly formulate an opinion on that basis, but I am open to experienced input.

For starters, the hole looks like it would be brutally penal for an level player that cannot predictably hit lofted shots from the tee that carry 140 yards. The exception would be if the banks are substantially softer and the grass kept much longer during the non-tournament days. These two maintenance practices could keep a great number of balls out of the water that go into it during tournament week. Is the course kept substantially softer and slower during the other months of their golf season?

Jim,

I can't speak to the intended maintainance practices, but, Mother Nature typically trumps them.

Remember, the course opens in Oct and closes not long after the Masters, so, seasonally, you don't see, from October, Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb what you see and experience in terms of weather and conditions, in April.

The hole has survived, mostly intact, for almost 80 years since 1934, so the club has deemed it eminently playable for their membership, guests and competitors.

It's a refreshing change versus so many 190-220-250 par 3's.

[Sven Nilsen]

The hole has survived, mostly intact, for almost 80 years since 1934, so the club has deemed it eminently playable for their membership, guests and competitors.
 [/b][/size][/color]

Mostly intact is not true, and eminently playable for the membership and guests is debatable.

"Arguably the most famous par 3 in golf (and surely the most consistently dramatic) the 155-yard 12th has undergone several significant changes over the decades, most of which seem largely forgotten today."  Daniel Wexler

[Patrick_Mucci]

The hole has survived, mostly intact, for almost 80 years since 1934, so the club has deemed it eminently playable for their membership, guests and competitors.
 [/b][/size][/color]

Mostly intact is not true,

Would you detail for us how the 12th hole, as a golf hole isn't mostly intact since 1934.

Start with the tee and end with the green and tell us how each feature, each component has been substantively changed over the years.

and eminently playable for the membership and guests is debatable.

By whom ?

Have you EVER played the hole ?



"Arguably the most famous par 3 in golf (and surely the most consistently dramatic) the 155-yard 12th has undergone several significant changes over the decades, most of which seem largely forgotten today."  Daniel Wexler

[Sven Nilsen]

Would you detail for us how the 12th hole, as a golf hole isn't mostly intact since 1934.

This is the second time I've referred you to this thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.50.html

By whom ?

To start with, by several other posters in this thread.  To expand the group beyond our little universe, any member or guest that would have a hard time hitting a shot of 145 yards that would have the requisite height necessary to hold the green.  It is perhaps the most penal hole at Augusta.  When I think penal the words "eminently playable" don't immediately pop into my mind.

Have you EVER played the hole ?

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I have not.  However, I've watched the tournament every year since I was in high school, I have a very acute imagination and I read.  When Jack Nicklaus says its one of the toughest par 3's in the world for the pros, in my mind that means it is an even tougher hole for the average golfer.  I covered all of this above.

[Mark Saltzman]

Is the 12th really one of the great par-3s in golf,

Yes

Pat,

What is it about the 12th hole that makes it one of the great par 3's in golf?


Jim, if you don't know by now, I doubt that my analysis would shed any light upon the substance and quality of the hole.

Patrick, in your title to this thread you ask if "the 12th hole at ANGC is one of the great par 3's in golf?".  A few of us, who granted have not had the opportunity to play Augusta National, have said that the hole is not one of the great par-3s in golf.  We have given reasons, mostly related to the penal nature of the hole and the size of the green, but you have dismissed them because we have not played the hole.

I agree that only once a golfer has played a hole can he truly appreciate its qualities.  Preferably the golfer has played the hole several times, and thus has seen varied winds and pin positions.  

It seems that you are one of only a handful of golfers on this board to have played Augusta.

To ask a question, dismiss the answers of the group, and then say "Jim, if you don't know by now, I doubt that my analysis would shed any light upon the substance and quality of the hole" does not add substance to the discussion.

Please tell me why this hole is one of the great par-3s in golf.

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