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Tommy_Naccarato

Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« on: December 03, 2001, 08:03:47 PM »
Red Alert***A warning to us all*** Red Alert***

Pat Mucci now owns a digital image capturing device.:)



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2001, 10:42:08 PM »
Tommy,

You have to teach me how to convert the pictures from my hard drive onto this web site in a post.  I have a bunch of pictures I took of holes 14-18, #'s 1, 2, and 4.  When I return after Xmas I intend to take pictures of every hole at Boca Rio and Pine Tree, and I'd like to be able to post them on a thread on Boca Rio and Pine Tree.

Geoffrey Childs, Jim Lewis, and Jerry Kluger have played the course, and they can chime in on some or all of the pictures.

Let me try to describe the four pictures posted.

The first picture is of the 14th hole, 420 into a prevailing wind, a difficult driving hole with water right and the bunker in the forground left, its a dogleg left.  This picture is taken from about 170 from the center of the green which is about 40+ yards deep. the pin in this picture is all the way back left.

The second picture is of the 16th hole a semi-soft-double dogleg par 5.  This picture is from 120 yards from the green, which is 50+ yards deep and well guarded.  The pin in this picture is all the way back right, which means second shots hit to the far right of the fairway or rough have the trees on the right blocking the approach.  Hit a big drive and one is tempted to go for it, but the risk is apparent if you miss on the left or the right.

The third picture is of the 190 par 3 17th hole, a double tiered green,  In this picture, the pin is in a frightening poisition, back right.  The green is 50+ yards deep with this pin, and any front lower level pin being the toughest.  The hole plays into a prevailing wind.  This is from the championship tee, the other tees are to the left and soften the angle of attack as you play the easier tees.

The fourth picture is of the 1st hole, a short par 5, easily reachable in two, though the wind is either crossing from left to right or at your back.  This picture is from about 100 yards.
The green has an elevated tier at the rear. and with a back left pin, even a 50 yard pitch is a frightening shot.  The ideal tee shot is to the right side of the fairway, giving you the best angle of attack into the green and avoiding a stand of trees that block a tee shot hit directly at the green.  The second shot can be a lay up or go for the green.  An easy birdie or bogey hole, it's soft as a starting hole, but can ruin your round if not played smartly.

I will post more pictures once Tommy teaches me how.  In the meantime, I'll send Tommy some more holes and views to post.

I hope you enjoy the pictures
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2001, 05:51:54 AM »
Pat

Maybe with a good search engine on this new software we can find all the previous discussions on Boca Rio.

Boca Rio is a really fine "players course".  It demands strong precise driving of the ball to have any chance to score well.  For a Florida course, it uses numerous bunkers instead of water as the primary hazard which I liked. Another thing I liked about it was the variety in length of holes including par 3's par 4's and par 5's.  As Pat said, the first is a reachable par 5 and I was tempted but knocked it in the water in two.  The 15th is a stern longer par 5 but those bunkers guarding the turn on the fairway near the 2nd shot landing area are a big factor.

Look at those fairway bunkers (especially the first picture) and imagine them significantly deeper.  I think Boca Rio is the place Pat was referring to in the discussion of reducing the depth of fairway hazards.

Lets see if the previous commands still work for posting photos.

Here are images I previously posted of I think #4, #7, #13, #16, #18










« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2001, 06:10:47 AM »
How well would you say that Boca Rio fits into the land?
Are those fairway humps and bumps consistent throughout and do they mimc any of the surrounds?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2001, 06:17:13 AM »
Geoffrey C,

Thanks for the additions.

I have sent Tommy some additional pictures on the first four holes which give a perspective from the tee, second and third shot areas, as well as a shot from behind the 17th green looking back at the tees.

If you could teach me how to take my photos from the hard drive and post them on this thread it would be great. Thanks.

Sadly, a green chairman that followed me, filled in the bunkers with additional sand elliminating the impediment to the flight of a ball exiting the bunkers, a ski slope ramp of sand now exists.  I have succeeded in having most of it removed in greenside bunkers and am working to get it removed from fairway bunkers, returning them to more of a legitimate hazard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2001, 07:33:36 AM »
I was fortunate to play Boca Rio on a beautiful afternoon when the course was virtually empty.  It was just myself and a caddy and I have not had a more enjoyable golfing experience in Southern Florida.  The course offers the player an environment without any of the typical houses bordering the course and has some wonderful mature trees, with the only distraction being some nearby roads.  The course is visually exciting and extremely challenging giving you many options as you approach each hole and this was especially challenging since I had a new caddy with very little local knowledge.  The bunkering is the most interesting aspect to the course as they are there for you to see and challenge you to either go over or around them.  The course is in outstanding condition although the greens had recently been topdressed. I am sorry that I am unable to recite each of the holes and how they played but the first hole with its risk/reward second shot into the par 5 is a wonderful start and while Pat is more inclined toward the longer/stronger holes, I found the short par 4s to be espcially intersting and challenging.  The photos seem to emphasize the bunkering but the bunkering works well with the shape of the holes and the land unlike courses such as Sothern Highlands in Las Vegas.  I played Boca Rio right after I played Pine Tree and those are two courses not to be missed.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2001, 11:38:01 AM »
I don't want to re-start the discussion about judging soley from pictures :), but those photos look terrific. The basic movement and approach angles look really interesting and well done from an aesthetic standpoint - particularly on a flat course.

The "bumps" Adam mentioned look unlike anything else in the other photos, but the 9th hole of Cinnabar Hills (Canyon nine) has a similar look in front of the green on a Cape par-5 and it works rather well without seeming forced.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Huckaby (Guest)

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2001, 12:03:41 PM »
;)

Gib, those very humps on Cinnabar (Canyon) #9 are pretty universally reviled outside of the Armenian golf critic world... heck, I don't mind them, but I have indeed heard and read all sorts of negative stuff about that hole....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2001, 12:16:53 PM »
Gib

You're interpretation of the photos concerning the aesthetics at Boca Rio is correct.  It looks good (especially for a Florida course) and it plays really well.

The fourth hole is a short par 4 (~360) where a tee shot challenging the more difficult and hazardous route down the right results in a clear approach while bailing out to the more open left side requires an approach over the bunker complex shown in the photo. Similarly on the 18th, a long difficult par 4, the drive challenging the H2O down the right (see my ball nearby) gives a clear long iron approach while a drive to the left requires the long 2nd shot to go over the bunkers.

The mounds on the par 3 13th are actually residue from Pepper trees cleared off the property as Pat described long ago. The tee is actually way over to the right of the photo so the mounds are not in play.  However, the waves you see in the fairway on 18 and Pat's picture of #1 are in play.  It was nice to see these features on otherwise pancake flat Florida property.

On my trip last December, I played the South Course at PGA reserve as well as Boca Rio.  Boca Rio had a whole lot more to offer the golfer then PGA Reserve.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2001, 12:34:10 PM »
Gib

Much as I hate to agree with TomH about anything and particularly about my beloved "home" course, Cinnabar Hills, and even more particularly given the fact that the Huckster is not even a member of this site, but just a lowly GUEST......he is right about those chocolate drop mounds in front of trhe 9th (Canyon)....hardly Harbottle's finest hour.........

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2001, 02:50:11 PM »
Aclayman,

On the east coast of Florida south of Palm Beach there is very little in the way of land movement.  As you head west from the ocean, much of the land was flat farmland or swamp, relaimed due to cheap land costs years ago.

Once you go west of the Turnpike, you encounter worse soil conditions.  From the ocean to the Turnpike you have sugar sand, west of the turnpike coral and marl and swamp.

Boca Rio sits below the water level in some areas, as do many area courses, so most movement in the land is man made.

The movement in the fairways was done with a dozer and the native soils.

The variety of mounds was a product of regulatory mandates and finances.

Once into the project, vegatation clearing permits had to be obtained to clear some of the overgrowth occuring over the last 25 years.  In the midst of the project when we applied for the permits, the State and County mandated that we clear the property of all Braziilian Pepper trees ( Florida Holly) over a three (3) year period., 50 % the 1st year, 25 % the 2nd and 3rd year.  Brazilian Pepper, almost a softwood weed, grows like wildfire, and even if you cut them down, the stumps will rejuvenate and regenerate within a very short time.  

After the plans were drawn to clear areas of the property we had to incur the additional expense of running new irrigation lines, fumigation and grass planting costs for the now barren areas of the golf course.  

Track hoes were brought in to pull down and cut down the pepper trees without damaging other trees of preferance.
Once we had them down, we had to dispose of them.
Initially, we had a burn permit, which could only be exercised when wind velocity was below a certain level each day.
Subsequently, the county revoked all burn permits, and we had to obtain huge machines that chipped up the Pepper Trees.  As you can see, our project costs were escalating rapidly.  The substantial additional cost and damage associated with bringing huge dump trucks on to the property to remove over 40 acres of Brazilian Pepper tree chips was
not a viable alternative.  Instead it was decided to use the chips as the foundation for onsite mounding.

In addition, all of the plastic that covered the golf course, contaminated with methyl-bromide and roundup had to be disposed of.  Florida does not permit below ground burial. hence the plastic was also to serve as mound foundations, with dirt obtained from lake excavations used to cover them.
In some cases a grass called spartina was used to cover off play mounds adding texture to the golf course.  They can be seen in the pictures of hole # 6.

Mounds that were in play were built to accomodate mowing.
Mounds that were in off play areas, were grassed with spartina.

Some mounds served as the platform for bunker placement with the bunkers cut into them.  Hole # 16 on the left as you approach the green is a good example.

Soft Mounds were used to hide virtually every cart path from the golfers view, with the exception of paths around tees, and some greens.  As one walks Boca Rio, from tee to green the cart paths are mostly invisible during the play of the holes despite the fact that over 17,000 linear feet of cart paths and 6 inch curbs wind through the course.

One of my early concerns had to do with the settling of the mounds.  We estimated that as the material decomposed we might lose as much as a foot, however, after ten years, the loss is undetectable.

Had I had a year's advance notice of the State and County's intent with respect to trees on their noxious species, eradication list, I would probably have approached the solution to the Pepper Tree's final resting place differently.
But, this was sprung on us mid-project, with strict compliance and time line mandates, and we made the best of a bad situation.

One has to understand the serious time and financial blow this mandate caused the project  Yet, in the final analysis, the State and  County did us a favor as the pepper trees had become so invasive that they interfered with ones swing on some fairway shots, and the club had to adopt a local relief ruling if the ball went into the pepper trees due to the danger involved in retrieval and the slow down of play.  Pepper trees also cause breathing problems, and are toxic in that nothing will grow under them, Florida Hurricanes also push them over, and break them leaving an unsightly mess.

Some mounds are borne of necessity, and sometimes people only see, like an iceberg, the tip of the mound and not what lies below the surface, or the reasons for their existance.

These mounds were created due to the combination of regulatory mandates, time lines, project progress, and substantial financial considerations.

I think, when you play Boca Rio, that you will find that the mounds are not an objectionable feature, add variety to your fairway shots, and provide an untypical golf experience in Florida.  But, I'm biased, so you might be well served by listening to other opinions as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2001, 07:51:08 PM »
Pat:

I'll admit I'm no expert on South Florida golf, but I haven't ever heard anything about Boca Rio aside from seeing it on Ran's "Next Fifty" and hearing that you play there.

(For those not familiar with Florida, "South Florida" is a term generally associated with only Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties - or Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and the Boca Raton/West Palm Beach Area.  Anything south is "the Keys" and Naples/Ft. Myers is considered "Southwest Florida".  To make matters confusing, the University of South Florida is in Tampa, which is either considered the "Old Coast" or part of "Central Florida", which is basically Tampa to Daytona Beach and Ocala to Lakeland.)

How does Boca Rio compare to other courses from South Florida?  Is it an old course like the Toomey/Flynn course in Miami (Indian something?), a course in the Dick Wilson mold, or more like any of the courses I've seen north of you like Medalist or Jupiter Hills.

From pictures, I'd guess it was built in the 60s and plays to a par of 71 or 72 at 6900 yards tipped out.  Flat as the rest of Florida, but offers you an interesting course that you might appreciate the more you see it.

From the photos you've posted I see resemblances of various courses around Florida, but they are all so different I'm having trouble getting a handle on the character of Boca Rio!!

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib Papazian

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2001, 10:06:21 PM »
Brains and Leprechaun,

If you came across mounds like those at Sunningdale or Cruden Bay you both wouldn't think a thing of it.

Using Cinnabar Canyon #9 as an example, think about the placement of those mounds and how they add strategic interest to the third shot for those who did not play the correct angle off the tee. It would be just another blase chip over a bunker, except now you have an element adding uncertainty to the safer play towards the right side.

However, because this is off the subject, we'd best discuss (argue) this off-line over at pint and shooter at Cinnabar's 19th hole. Perhaps this weekend if our wives are charitable enough to grant us an afternoon hall pass.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2001, 04:50:26 PM »
John Conley,

The course plays to 7,212 from the back, about 6,750 from the mid=tees.

I think it's the kind of course that doesn't require continued play to appreciate.  Just ask Jim Lewis, Geoff Childs, and Jerry Kluger.

The feel of the course, with the exception of the temperature could be North Carolina-Florida

Built in 1966-7, Dick Wilson was certainly an influence, in fact he was supposed to have designed the course, but took ill and couldn't be retained.

You won't hear much about Boca Rio, even in Boca Raton.
The club keeps a very low profile, will not host outside events, doesn't permit guest play unless sponsored by a member.  A few years ago I convinced the Board to let a small number of Golf Course raters on the course each year, but that privilege has been canceled.

Boca Rio is rather unique, and I doubt it resembles any course in Florida, with the possible exception of Pine Tree.

Unfortunately, I just received notice that the current green committee intends to formulate a long range "landscaping" plan, and you know what that means.  Just take a look at the pictures here, and the ones soon to be posted, and ask if this looks like a club that needs more landscaping.

The 9th and 18th greens are connected, and I believe were on the cover of Sports Illustrated when the club first opened.
 
When Tommy posts more pictures, I'll comment on them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2001, 05:19:33 PM »
These are some very good pictures, but they really don't do justice to the course, especially the par 3 seventeenth. #17 is one of the most dramatic and unusual par threes I have seen. It is hard to tell from the photo but there is a small lower tier of the green forward of the left greenside bunker and betweeen that bunker and the water.  The day I played Boca Rio the pin was back right, unbelievably scarey. I actually hit one of the best irons ever just left of the flag and proceeded to three-putt for bogey.

I have played Pine Tree several times and Boca Rio only once. Pine Tree may be a tougher test for championship play, but I enjoyed Boca Rio more. For a low ball hitter like me, Pine Tree can be very tough because most of the greens are slightly raised and many have front bunkers which require a high shot.
At Boca Rio, as I recall, there were far fewer front bunkers and many greens that will accept a run-up shot, my speacialty!

Few Floridians know about Boca Rio because the club seems to go to great lengths not to call attention to itself.

The mounds are a non-issue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tom Huckaby (Guest)

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2001, 05:34:57 PM »
Rich/Gib:

You know, the more I stay as a "Guest" here, the more I'm beginning to like it... it does fit my role in the golf world, that's for sure - member nowhere, guest everywhere, loud and not so proud and never leaving.

Ran, ok, RC Down blows away NGLA.  Southen Pines is the best course on the planet.  Can I get someone to re-send me the email with my password now???

I do love the bar at my former home course... you guys say when and I shall try to be there.  In the meantime, Gib, we can discuss this at Pajaro...

Just to clarify though, and likely putting Rich more at ease, I didn't say I didn't like the mounds in front of 9Canyon - just that nearly everyone I've ever read, talked to, or heard discuss Cinnabar mentions these as the WORST part of the course.  I can see Gib's point here most definitely myself.... it was just curious to me he chose this feature to point out...

That better, Rich?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2001, 06:16:04 PM »
Once I get my 5th star I'm going to do something about this guest policy.  It's enough having the Huckster post away to his hearts content without accepting the responsibilities of membership, but now the Mad Armenian is using our precious server space for his social calendar!

That being said, an early morning time at Cinnabar would be possible either day this weekend.  If the weather remains arctic, we can almost look at those mounds on the 9th if we stand on our stools at the bar.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2001, 07:01:51 PM »
Pat

Here are a few more photos for you to describe. The last one shows that shelf in the 17th green that Jim Lewis described.  The pin was in about the same place on the right as when Jim Lewis played.  It fit my lefty draw and it was my one and only birdie of the round.  

My caddie bet me that we would not see five people on each 9 during the whole day.  He was right.









« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2001, 08:07:00 PM »
Geoff,

The  first photo in your last post is of the 6rh hole, a 180 yard par 3, taken from just behind the ladies yelllow tees.  The angled tee to the right was added by the same green chairman who filled in the bunkers to their lip line with sand, making them puttable.  Neat hole, tough pin locations are far left and rear.  wind is usually helping or quartering helping.

Next photo is the 11th hole, 468 from the back tee, demanding off the drive with bunkers right, the bunker by the green extended 2/3 across the fairway until the current green chairman filled it in about 2-3 years ago. Afternoon winds usually help or quarter help.

Next photo the 15th, 440 fairly generous driving area requiring a demanding second shot to a large green, well bunkered with water short and left.

next photo, the 9th hole 410, usually into the prevailing wind, or quartering wind, well bunkered at the tee shot and second shot, This green connects to the 18th green.

Last photo is the 17th 190 par 3, with a double tier green, with the top tier being large, and the bottom tier rather small, the mid points of the upper and lower are probably 30+ yards apart making the lower pin position considerably shorter, but infinitely riskier.  It plays in to prevailing winds

Tommy Naccarato will be posting additional pictures, and when my son teaches me how to post pictures, I'll put some shots up.

The course record is 68 vis a vis Bernhart Langer, but with all the unfortunate softening that has taken place in the last ten years the course is considerably easier today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2001, 08:13:00 AM »
Patrick,
the rough lines on #11 in the photo above look to be encroaching too far from the bunker into the run-up area.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2001, 02:43:17 PM »
Gib,

The picture is deceiving.

There's a good 20-30 yards between the bunker and the green.

Also, that bunker extended another ten yards to the left forcing a lay up to 100 yards, a dangerous lay up to 40-60 yards, or a carry over the bunkers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2001, 03:59:06 PM »
I really liked the finishing holes at Boca Rio.  

The 15th hole shown in a picture above has a really deceptive as well as diffficult 2nd shot.  If you look at the back bunker, it has a mound in the center.  The front greenside bunkers are raised just enough to prevent seeing the bottom of the flagstick and most of the green surface unless your line of play is directly between the front bunkers. From my line of play in the fairway it looked like the pin was tucked BEHIND what is really the BACK bunker.  Its a long shot anyway but it looks frightening and longer then the actual yardage thinking the pin is behind that bunker.  I had to ask the caddie twice about that shot.

There are a lot of good visuals at Boca Rio and that's part of the aesthetics that Gib first mentioned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2001, 03:59:06 PM »
Thanks for the photos of Boca Rio. That's apparently the closest I ever will get to it.  Boca Rio was listed in our GolfDigest materials as a course to be ranked.  I always assumed any course on the list had consented to be listed. I was traveling to the Ft. Lauderdale area and faxed a request to rank the course.  The pro called and asked how I got his name. He seemed completely unfamiliar with the process and said he'd have to check with the board of directors.  He said later the board knew nothing about it and declined to allow me to rank the course.  That is fine; it's their perogative. I managed to play Pine Tree, Jupiter Hills, Seminole, Weston Hills and the Blue course at Doral during the trip, so it wasn't exactly a waste.  
In the next list we received (2000-2001), the listing for Boca Rio stated its policy is to require invitation through a member.
If I had known that earlier, I would have saved the poor pro
the trouble.  
My understanding is Boca Rio at least originally was a Von Hagge course.  Because he is Hoosier-born (son of  greenskeeper Ben Hagge in a little town in northern Indiana and attended Purdue University), I try to play as many of his courses at possible.   I guess I'll have to pass on Boca Rio.  So much the sadder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

E Pevoto

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2001, 04:22:28 PM »
Pat,

I believe the photo has been posted and discussed on prior thread so please bear with me.  What is that fuzzy thing on the right of the 15th green?

Eric

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

E Pevoto

Re: Pat Mucci's Boca Rio
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2001, 04:24:50 PM »
Sorry, make that the 17th green!

Eric
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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