The impediment to centerline bunkers is

[Tim Martin]

Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15

[Brian Chapin]

Paramount #5

[Tim Martin]

Paramount #5

Brian-That is a great one at Paramount. Jim Urbina`s work shines.

[Bill_McBride]

Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15

Tim, do you really think that's a good one?  Does anybody ever go left on purpose?

I think a really good centerline bunker hole has rewarding tee shots to either side of the bunker in the middle, depending on pin location, wind, etc.  In this case it appears tee shots to the left will run down that hill and always leave an uphill approach over those daunting bunkers.  Tee shots to the right yield what appears to be a much more open approach.

Maybe it's different on site but that's how it looks to me from this photo.  Standard disclaimer:  I've never played White Manor, so this is JMO.  

[Tim Nugent]

Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ?  I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker.  I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.

YES! Try to put one into an existing club. You might not make it out of the parking lot.  We even had one "removed" from #8 at GC of Illinois.

There are several reasons, first and foremost the width issue brought up by Mr. Mucci (and with width goes irrigation system modifications and more fairway (hence maintenance expense argument).

Some other aspects lie in the ol' Fairness issue.  The distance off the tee for different classes of players can make it more or less a determenant feature.  While the same coud be said for any hazard, the fact that they are right in the middle of where players have been brainwashed into believing that that is where they are supposed to aim leads to increased scurtiny.

Also, whie the bunker remains stationary over time, the driving distances have not and what was once a prodigious carry is not even an after thought for the long hitters - which ruffles the feathers of those who can't carry it.

If the hole is wide enough to actuay have a double fairway setup, as in the 1st at Kingsley, is there a preferred side? And if there is, what exactly is the reason to have the otherside?  Both sides have to have a workable outcome which causes one to have to think about which side suits his game.  Tim Martin's photo of the #15  at White Manor appears to have this (I have never been there, only commenting on what the picture reveals).  It seems the right side is more open and produces a better lbut longer line into the green while the shorter left requires negociating the left bunkering and the sloping fairway (I don't know if the risk/reward balance is enough for me ).  However, if the bunker isn't positioned properly in distance from the tee, all this can be moot if all one has to do is blow it straight over.

It takes careful planning to pull off a centerline bunker that works.  Perhaps that is why, when we come upon one that does work, we find it to be a great feature.

[Ben Carey]

Royal New Kent (Strantz) sticks out to me. #5 has an interesting cross-bunker that ends up being a fairly tough (although fun IMO) mental challenge.

The only real strategy is that you have to carry it.

There's a small area between the two right-most bunkers that has a rock blocking the path.

[Tim Martin]

Here`s a good one at White Manor # 15

Tim, do you really think that's a good one?  Does anybody ever go left on purpose?

I think a really good centerline bunker hole has rewarding tee shots to either side of the bunker in the middle, depending on pin location, wind, etc.  In this case it appears tee shots to the left will run down that hill and always leave an uphill approach over those daunting bunkers.  Tee shots to the right yield what appears to be a much more open approach.

Maybe it's different on site but that's how it looks to me from this photo.  Standard disclaimer:  I've never played White Manor, so this is JMO.  

I guess our opinion of what constitutes a good centerline bunker is far different. It never occurred to me that you were supposed to be guaranteed a "rewarding" shot regardless of where you hit it in relation to the hazard. I have been in plenty of fairways where the angle was far better on the other side and not nearly as "rewarding". As we discuss so frequently on the site we are trying to give ourselves the best angle into the green and the farther from perfect our drive is the farther from perfect our angle of approach is. Remember that this is a 330 yard risk/reward par 4 so if you hit it more left of center than you wanted to it becomes a tougher approach. Should they have not put all those bunkers in left of the green so it would be the same shot from the left side of the fairway as the right? I like variety and strategy.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the 4th at Woking, surely one of the most strategic centre line hazards out there.  Each of the four options for avoidance is possible (carry, lay-up, go left, go right) each with its pros and each with its cons.  As with many of the great centre line hazards it is the combination of the CL bunker with a severe hazard on the preferred side (at Woking as at 16 on TOC, it is out of bounds in play down the preferred RHS) which elevates the hazard to greatness.

As to the impediment, I'm sure that many have correctly identified the unthinking golfer's belief that a shot hit into the middle of the fairway should give an ideal result and the fact that most golfers don't like to have to think about the shot they play.  On this it's difficult not to agree with MHM.

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,

From your photo and description I think that the problem with that White Manor hole is that a) it is clearly better to be right than left of the bunker AND b) there is no added danger on the right that makes that shot more hazardous than playing safely left.  Why, then, would any golfer do anything other than play right of the bunker?

[Garland Bayley]

impediment - RTJ, who used bunkers as punishment, instead of as Dr. Mac said as thought provoking.

We have suffered with generations of golfers who have been indoctrinated in bunkers as punishment.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

From your photo and description I think that the problem with that White Manor hole is that a) it is clearly better to be right than left of the bunker AND b) there is no added danger on the right that makes that shot more hazardous than playing safely left.  Why, then, would any golfer do anything other than play right of the bunker?

Mark- To be fair I don`t really understand the question. Isn`t the intention to find the line of charm on any hole? If you pull it left you have a tougher shot. Additionally there is a greenside bunker right which catches a push or blocked shot.

[Joe Stansell]

I love the idea of this, which comes from Mike Riste's interview, in which he describes AV Macan's thought process behind placing centerline bunkers on Shaughnessy:

He placed fairway bunkers in strategic spots near the centre of  the fairway to control the distance the players were driving the ball.  He placed extreme emphasis on the fact he believed the centre of the fairway was not the position for the player’s drive.  Mac placed a large landing area on one side of the central bunker and a smaller more challenging area on the opposite side. If the low handicap player chose the challenging side and placed his tee shot perfectly, Mac rewarded the player by sloping the green towards the player for the second shot.

Apparently Shaughnessy's members disliked the strategy and Mac's bunkers were ultimately removed. Which serves as more evidence that past golfers decided that bunkers were to serve only as "punishment," and that punishment should not be exacted from players who skillfully placed tee shots down the middle of the fairway.

[Ben Sims]

Patrick,

It's very simple.  The majority of golfers believe that the only definition of a good tee shot is straight and long.  There is little to dissuade this belief on most golf courses.  What you and I consider imagination with regard to pin position and approach angles, the average golfer considers unnecessary analysis.  That's the impediment.

The solution is to introduce golfers to more forms of strategy on a golf course and see how they react.  Once they understand that there is an advantage to being on a particular side of a hazard, then the bunker becomes more fair in their eyes.  

The worst centerline hazards are the ones where there is no reason to ever hit to one side and the goal--no matter the wind or pin position--is to always be on the opposite of that side.  

One of my favorite centerline hazards is the center fairway bunker on #14 at Ballyneal.  It creates not just a "left/right" problem, but a "front/back" problem as well.  One of the few centerline hazards that asks you to think with regard to distance and directions.

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,

But shouldn't the "line of charm" be something to be discovered, rather than being obvious.  The great thing about 4 at Woking is that it's obvious that much the easier approach comes from playing right of the bunker.  The green can even be reachable on that line.  However, playing right brings OOB into the equation, so the cautious golfer might play left, making par (and certainly birdie) harder but taking double bogey out of the equation.  It's that balance between risk and benefit that makes the centreline hazard great.  I don't see that balance at White Manor.  Right is obviously the better line in and seems no riskier than left.  Why would any golfer choose to go left?  He doesn't avoid any risk that way, he doesn't make the tee shot easier and he certainly makes the approach harder.

I guess I agree entirely with the third paragraph of Ben's post.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

But shouldn't the "line of charm" be something to be discovered, rather than being obvious.  The great thing about 4 at Woking is that it's obvious that much the easier approach comes from playing right of the bunker.  The green can even be reachable on that line.  However, playing right brings OOB into the equation, so the cautious golfer might play left, making par (and certainly birdie) harder but taking double bogey out of the equation.  It's that balance between risk and benefit that makes the centreline hazard great.  I don't see that balance at White Manor.  Right is obviously the better line in and seems no riskier than left.  Why would any golfer choose to go left?  He doesn't avoid any risk that way, he doesn't make the tee shot easier and he certainly makes the approach harder.

I guess I agree entirely with the third paragraph of Ben's post.

Mark-Fair enough but wouldn`t a back right pin be more accessible from the left of the bunker?

[Tim Nugent]

Tim, at 330 yds, it's hard to say the amount of impact this bunker has without knowing the distance from the bunker to the green.  Without a doubt there is a degree of visual impact - something that GCA's use to obfuscate the golfers.  I originally thought this was a long par 4 as green appeared much further to me.  Now, if that was the case and the right side left me around 200 and the left in the 160-170 range, I'm beginning to consider the added risk of the approach for a 3 club benefit.

[Sean_A]

Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ?  I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker.  I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.

YES! Try to put one into an existing club. You might not make it out of the parking lot.  We even had one "removed" from #8 at GC of Illinois.

There are several reasons, first and foremost the width issue brought up by Mr. Mucci (and with width goes irrigation system modifications and more fairway (hence maintenance expense argument).

Some other aspects lie in the ol' Fairness issue.  The distance off the tee for different classes of players can make it more or less a determenant feature.  While the same coud be said for any hazard, the fact that they are right in the middle of where players have been brainwashed into believing that that is where they are supposed to aim leads to increased scurtiny.

Also, whie the bunker remains stationary over time, the driving distances have not and what was once a prodigious carry is not even an after thought for the long hitters - which ruffles the feathers of those who can't carry it.

If the hole is wide enough to actuay have a double fairway setup, as in the 1st at Kingsley, is there a preferred side? And if there is, what exactly is the reason to have the otherside?  Both sides have to have a workable outcome which causes one to have to think about which side suits his game.  Tim Martin's photo of the #15  at White Manor appears to have this (I have never been there, only commenting on what the picture reveals).  It seems the right side is more open and produces a better lbut longer line into the green while the shorter left requires negociating the left bunkering and the sloping fairway (I don't know if the risk/reward balance is enough for me ).  However, if the bunker isn't positioned properly in distance from the tee, all this can be moot if all one has to do is blow it straight over.

It takes careful planning to pull off a centerline bunker that works.  Perhaps that is why, when we come upon one that does work, we find it to be a great feature.

Tim

Yes, well in general centreline bunkers work better on windy courses  because on any given day they may not be carryable.  I would say the the same for f&f courses where conditions may encourage/discourage golfers from taking on added risk.  

Mark - while Woking's bunker only works these days as it was meant to from the back tee and with a bit of head wind, there is an added element these days.  With the long ball guys can get caught out left with no shot and be forced to execute a brilliant pitch or bail out for the par.  The retreating green and front left bunker (and right side bunker) aren't given enough credit for making the 4th a cracking hole.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,

Yes, I agree.  However, in that case, doesn't my argument still apply in reverse?  What then is the added danger of playing left?  The pin position changes the preferred line but the decision on the tee is still a straightforward one, it seems to me.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Exactly.  The bunker at Woking works so brilliantly because of the way it interracts with the architecture of the rest of the hole.  The green is set up to be approached from the centre or right.  Right is threatened by the OOB.  An approach from the left makes par tricky.  Middle and short of the bunker offers an easy ish par.  Right of the bunker offers a birdie chance but is dangerous.  Long and left leaves a short but horribly tricky pitch.  Remove any feature of the architecture and it becomes a lesser hole, I think.  Great centre line hazards almost always work in conjunction with other architectural features of the hole.

[Matthew Petersen]

Sebonack #9 also has a big bunker int he middle of the fairway. Even Jack Nicklaus (with Tom Doak) is getting into the act.

I've seen plenty of centerline bunkers on Nicklaus courses. His design at Dove Mountain has four holes that feature them, all of them effectively.

I will say with regards to the topic, that one of my pet peeves is the faux centerline, bunker--that is a bunker that is surrounded by fairway but has such a small amount of fairway to one side of it that it just seems ridiculous to even keep the fairway cut.

[Tom Yost]

Talking Stick North has beauties:  #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.

#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.  

Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.  

The common denominator?  All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.

The irony?  That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!

As a golfer with little no classic course experience, I spent my entire adult golfing life playing Phoenix area courses built post 1980 and thus, the centerline bunker was an unknown feature to me... until I first played Talking Stick North.   I should thank C&C for helping to bring back this feature to the modern golf course.

Chambers Bay #14 features a diagonal fairway with a pretty neat bunker in the middle that defines the strategy of the hole. Either play safe to the right and face a long shot to the green, or go for it left with a longer tee carry and a much shorter shot to the green.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I think my two favorite holes that incorporate centerline bunkers are...

#2 Pacific Dunes
I love this hole in general - perhaps one of my favorites at Pacific Dunes – along with #6, #7, and #16.  The 'Shoe' bunker is fairly small - I would certainly guess well below the average bunker size at Pacific Dunes, but it certainly makes you think off the tee.  Right of the bunker off the tee is probably the safer play, but the approach to the green becomes more difficult in my opinion - especially if you are not as familiar with the course and green surrounds.

#8 Kingsley Club
One of the very good, short par fours at Kingsley - the tee shot really provides you some options.  Right of the bunkers is a little bit more intimidating off the tee as the landing area is partially blind from the tee - but the approach is a little more straight-forward given the angle to the green and slope.  A long drive down the left between the bunkers and the tree line looks very good off the tee, but again, the angle to the green is a little more intimidating.

Both great holes in my opinion with very clear, differentiated routes to the green - along with the decision of when you want to put a greater premium on accuracy - off the tee or into the green.

[Kalen Braley]

I think #3 at Pac Dunes is the best example of the ones I've played.

So many options on the tee shot, and then again on the layup.  And it probably varies massively with a winter wind or the prevailing summer wind. 

Good stuff all around!!

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I think the main impediment to centerline bunkers on American courses has been -- fairway width.  When you have a course with fairways that are consistently 25-30 yards wide, it is difficult to integrate a centerline bunker that fits.  If play to either side of the bunker is really going to be a viable option, you need at least 50 yards of width in the landing area [including the bunker], and that doesn't fit very well with a bunch of other holes that are half as wide.

[archie_struthers]

 

Actually that centerline at White Manor (Bobby Weed redo) is quite interesting.  If you can carry it 250 plus/minus you can try to knock it over the bunker and get it real close to the green. The fairway cants hard right to left if your angle of attack isn't spot on , so it's not a gimme , and if  you block it right those trees come into play.  If the green is firm , requires a quality shot to stuff it.

The left side is safe, and an easier play off the tee, but now you have to hit a severely uphill 2nd shot.  

All in all a fun hole with some interesting angles and strategy , it's quite good!