[Chris Kane]

Thanks for the thread Kyle - super tour.

13 has changed significantly in the last few years - the ti-tree used to encroach significantly on the left side around 240m from the back tee. This has been removed and replaced with a 'wasteland' feature, probably an improvement in a golfing sense but I'm not convinced about the look. Very easy to fix though.

Despite being only 444m from the back tee with a downhill second shot, I've always felt that this hole plays longer than its length, probably because of the uphill tee shot which leaves a blind second over the hill if you're not well positioned. That said, there is scope for an additional 20-40m if the club hosts a men's tournament, which would ensure that the professionals hit long-irons and fairway woods into the green.

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris, I've always felt that 13 is an underappreciated hole. An obvious birdie opportunity for the better player, provided they can get the drive away to the crest of the hill. I felt that the tea-tree on the LHS in the drive zone was ok and just needed a bit of a tidy up rather than removal, as it gave the long hitter something else to think about in terms of direction and length of the drive. Now it's just a smash up the left side without much penalty other than a slightly more difficult angle of approach is going for the green in two.

The second shot from the top of the hill to the green is excellent. A long iron or fairway wood to a target that is not small, but is well protected. The green moves internally just enough to make long putting no snack, and the back right pin position requires the player to avoid the RHS bunkers at all costs.

A really good par 4.5 hole.

[Chris Kane]

Shane, I agree that 13 is underappreciated, but I don't agree that the ti-tree should have stayed.

While the hole is easier, I think its a better hole now. There is still incentive to drive close to the bunkers on the right hand side, as it leaves the front of the green open for the second shot (all but very elite players hit most of their second shots with a fairway wood). When the ti-tree was there, any tee shot hit down the left side which was remotely within range of the green could only be advanced 100m or so down the fairway. Not 'Commonwealth' at all.

With the ti-tree gone, a firm green surface is even more essential to defend the hole by penalising those coming from the bad angle. It would be ridiculously easy for good players hitting mid-irons into a soft green.

Have you ever thought about cutting a bunker into the top of the hill on the left (see aerial below)? Not necessarily advocating this, but it could restore some of the thought patterns for good players that disappeared when the trees went.

[Mike_Clayton]

Shane,
Surely the problem with the tea-tree was that you could be on the fairway - with a poorer angle - but not see the green because of how far it had encroached over the years. If it was called a par four would that make a difference to your opinion?
The reality is that for good players this is a par four. I was at Pinehurst last week and there are at least four par fours longer and harder than 13. I don't care what they call it but I played with Mike Cocking and Mat Goggin last week in America and it's a drive and a seven iron for them - unless it's into the wind.
It never ceases to amaze me how far good players hit the ball now.

[Chris Kane]

Mike, I don't think the number on the scorecard is relevant, nor should it have any impact on deciding whether a particular feature (such as ti-tree) is acceptable. For good players it requires two solid shots to hit the green, for the typical member on a Saturday its two good shots and a pitch. The par doesn't come into it. Elite players in the Port Phillip would think of 5 as a dropped shot (just like 14 at the Lakes), and the hole is probably halved in 4s more often than 5s in Division 1 Pennant.

That said, if we ever host the Aussie Masters, I assume they would call it a par-four or build a new tee 30-40m further back specifically for the tournament.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mike, they should have left the tea tree there but tidied it up. What's there now is dreadful and funnily enough has some tea tree planted amongst it. The waste area is almost as poor as the one on 4. It's a two shot hole for the good player (always has been really) but now the tee shot is a free hit rather than one requiring a bit of thought in terms of accuracy and distance.

Chris, I can't see the photo you linked, but doubt a bunker would be the answer.

[Mike_Clayton]

Shane,
Those trees always looked like someone decided that the hole was 'too easy' and that something needed to be done to make it harder - instead of simply calling it a par four and leaving the drive somewhat open. The 8th at Victoria suffered from the same by adding those silly trees to the right.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mike, the drive has always been open since the big gum came out of the rhs near the hill 15 years ago. Removal of all the tea tree on the left reduced the strategy of the tee shot for the better player, and IMO is now a weaker hole for it. The tea tree was never an issue for the guy who hits it 200m off the tee - he simply plays short, hits his second over it to the layup area (avoiding the bunkers)  and wedges on.

It just needed to be cut right back, not removed. What's there now is very ordinary.

[Tom Kelly]

A few more pics of the holes covered so far that I have been meaning to post for a while. I hope they add to the pics already posted.They were all taken around the time of the 2010 Ladies Open.

1st


A good view of the slope on the 3rd fairway


7th, not sold on the stripes...


8th. A really good looking golf hole, if only I had a better camera!


8th Green


11th


A good view from the back of 11th green which helps to show how severe the slope of the green is.


I'll add a few more pics of the latter holes as Kyle introduces them!

[Kyle Henderson]

Thank you for sharing those images, Thomas. Good stuff!

[Kyle Henderson]

#14: 325 meters. Par 4.


Another clever short par 4 (Melbourne needs to share), the 14th makes good use of a relatively flat piece of land. A long ball a bit left of center could be fruitful, but most will be wise to lay back.


This image from the CGC website depicts a bunker that protects the ideal position for a full wedge approach down the green’s longest axis.


Set from short/left to long/right, the 14th green requires precise distance and directional control on the approach, as a failure to match the two will generally take par out of play. Left is the best miss, as a small crest may kick approaches onto the green, however it may also kick shots further left and impede subsequent recovery efforts.

[Shane Gurnett]

Kyle, the 14th is an excellent short par 4. The tee shot always wants to get away from the player to the non preferred right hand side, which results in a difficult approach to a very narrow target. The prudent play from the te is up the left close to the fairway bunker. The green is longer than it appears, probably 2-3 clubs difference from front to back, and a miss in either greenside bunkers (but especially the back left) results in a very tough up and down.

The front left pin is very challeneging due to the slope of the green and the diabolical recovery shots it creats for a miss anywhere but short in front. A very underrated hole.

From the Ladies open in 2009:

[Kyle Henderson]

#15: 147 meters.


The 15th hole is memorable mainly due to the imposing bunkers that must be carried from the tee.


Viewed from the front/right, the moderately-proportioned green is fully visible, as is the falloff at its rear.

[Michael Taylor]

That par 3 15th looks a bit like the 10th at KH! Thanks for the tour Kyle, it looks like a course I must play when I get down to Melbourne next.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike,
As good as the 10th at Kingston Heath is, this 15th is probably an even better hole. It it does ask for a better shot to hit the green and it is a beautiful green.

[Mark_F]

As good as the 10th at Kingston Heath is, this 15th is probably an even better hole. It it does ask for a better shot to hit the green and it is a beautiful green.

Mike,

So if 15 is better than 10, and 9 Commo is better than 15 KH, and 17 Commo is better than 3 KH, and 16 Commo is better than anything else at KH, how does KH get ranked ahead of it?

[David_Elvins]

So if 15 is better than 10, and 9 Commo is better than 15 KH, and 17 Commo is better than 3 KH, and 16 Commo is better than anything else at KH, how does KH get ranked ahead of it?

The obvious answer would be that the other holes are better.  

Commonwealth has some good examples of strategic green complexes but they are sadly let down by the narrowness of the fairways.  Whats the point of having greens that favour an approach from one side of the fairway when the fairway is only 15-20 yards wide?

The worst examples of great green ncomplexes being wasted are at holes such as 2 (20 metres wide in driving zone), 8 (18 metres wide in driving zone)  and 14 (14 metres wide in driving zone).  All these holes have room for significant widening of the fairway that would make the hole more strategic and interesting whilst sacrificing little in the way of difficulty.  

Even your much favoured 17th hole is 28m wide at it's widest area.  Compare that to the 38m wide fairway at Kingston Heath no 3 and you can easily see how KH3 gives more options, is more interesting to play and ultimately a better hole.

No point having strategic green complexes without width.  At Commonwealth a lot of fantastic green complexes are almost wasted because of the lack of width and 15-20 metre wide fairways.  

[Kyle Henderson]

Well said, Sir Elvins. As you pointed out during my travels, Kingston heath does not have anything close to the best property in the sand belt, but it comes closest to maximizing its potential. Commonwealth, while excellent, has room for improvement. My thanks to you and everyone else that has commented on these minor blemishes.

Pup, Commonwealth is a must when you next visit Melbourne. Its a terrific course and has a slightly different flavor to its neighbors.

[Kyle Henderson]

That par 3 15th looks a bit like the 10th at KH! Thanks for the tour Kyle, it looks like a course I must play when I get down to Melbourne next.

For those unfamiliar and wishing to compare...
http://www.kingstonheath.com.au/guests/course/hole10.mhtml

[Mike_Clayton]

Dave,Mark,

I was going to say I would concede 17 at Commonwealth over 3 at KH (a really good short 4) if you could see the 17th green and left bunker from the left edge of the fairway. Until then KH's hole is superior.
Dave's point re holes like 14 is unarguable I think.

[Tom Kelly]

A few good pics of the 14th and 15th;

[Kyle Henderson]

#16: 364 meters. Par 4.


The 16th asks players to drive near the lake for a better angle in. While simple in concept, execution of the desired shot is quite demanding.


Very little buffer is provided to arrest the momentum of misplaced drives.

[Chris Kane]

One of the best par-fours in the country in my view. The very rare example of a water hazard used perfectly to create strategic golf - and a hole you could never tire of playing.

Does anyone have photos of the second shot from the various angles, say next to the water and from the right side of the fairway? What makes this a great hole is the green complex - it favours a shot from close to the water, with the approach becoming progressively more difficult every metre you move to the right. A shot from the right side will (depending on the hole location) have to fly the greenside bunker and land on a downslope. Due to the angle of the tee shot, keeping the ball within 10m of the water (to get the ideal angle for the approach) requires an exceptional shot, usually hit with a touch of draw.

Sadly this is also a hole adversely affected by modern technology - the best players are now hitting short-irons and wedges in, which reduces the imperative to hit a good tee shot. It is a better hole when hitting a mid-iron (as I do most of the time).

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris,

I dont have one handy from the RHS but this shows the ideal angle in from the middle/LHS



Dave, I agree with most of your comments about fairway width (especially 8 and 14), but its not an issue on 2. Theres a tonne of room there, and the angle really doesn't come into play until the third shot. It will be a much better hole when Mike moves the 2nd shot bunker across to the left.

The 15th is a great par 3 with an under rated green.  Here's how it looked in the mid 1980's before all the bunker lips were given a sharpen up. Note the additional trees on the right which really strangled the green. The green was rebuilt in the early 1990's and extended a bit to the left and left rear.

[Mark_F]

Compare that to the 38m wide fairway at Kingston Heath no 3 and you can easily see how KH3 gives more options, is more interesting to play and ultimately a better hole.

What are you going on about David.  KH 3 is a zero option hole.  You can hit it anywhere on the fairway and hit the green.  Even from the crap on the right. 

Width isn't everything - interesting is everything.

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