[Greg Holland]

"Yet, he stayed with him for years until he was fired."

Greg Holland -

Haney says he was not fired, but he quit even though Tiger did not want him to.

DT

You are right -- I now recall he announced he was leaving Tiger.  Here is his quote:

“Just so there is no confusion, I would like to make it clear that this is my decision. Tiger Woods and I will always be friends, but I believe that there is a time and place for everything, and I feel at this time and at this place in my life I want to move forward in other areas.”

[Tim Johnson]

I have been following as usual, all the topics on this this site and I started to notice a common theme, Haney broke the code. At first I put it to athletes talking about athletes, we put up with some crap depending on how great the athlete is but the comments kept coming in on how Haney sold out.

Gents, the reality is Tiger broke the code with his family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like Tiger and really think he is a good person, deep down. His upbringing may have something to do with his actions and his disconnect from normal society but lets not forget the most important point....the guy cheated on his family....20 plus times. I appreciate times are a changing but if we ever forget what simple values mean then how can we expect others to live up to them.

Tiger made his bed, he has to sleep in it...if Haney made some money off of Tiger's lies, who is Tiger to whine about it? He put the persona out there and made heaps of money out of it. In all reality, given todays 24-7 news, Tiger got off lucky, although it probably cost him millions in hush money but given the stories that have come out in other scandals, he got off lucky.

Haney a sellout? Possibly but only if you buy the book. Otherwise just enjoy the golf, the guy is possibly the greatest of all time....just like all the other great athletes who have enjoyed the benefits of being famous.

[Richard Choi]

Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are the exceptions to the modern day athlete, not the rule.  Hank didn't owe Tiger anything.

How do you know Peyton and Drew are exceptions? Do you know them personally? Do you know where they hang out after a game on road trips?

A study suggested that 80% to 90% of all pro athletes cheat on their wives. Do you really think you can identify those minority? I would take the bet agaist it every time.

Why don't we just appreciate great athletes for what they are - great athletes?

[David_Elvins]

Why don't we just appreciate great athletes for what they are - great athletes?

From what I have heard from people who have read the book, this is what Haney does.

The world is full of books that detail the inner workings of personal and business relationships.  It is basically what good non-fiction is.  One more is hardly a big shock. 

The outrage in this  thread is just wierd. 

[Mark Pearce]

One other thing.  All those people asking how anyone can judge Tiger as a jerk without knowing him: have you seen him interviewed in the last 10 years?  Have you watched his on-course demeanour?  You don't need to have met the guy to judge that, if he's happy to behave like that with the cameras on him he must be worse without.  That's why Feinstein's piece in a magazine last month actually made me respect Woods more than I had before.  Despite all the outrage here, I suspect from the reviews that Haney's book will have the same effect.

[Rob Miller]

Just finished reading the book.  I won't wade into the argument for or against writing the book, it's a moot point now.  For the most part it is an interesting read, there were some uncomfortable moments in the book, things that should have been unsaid.  Analysis of Tiger and Elin's relationship could have been left out and the book would have been no less interesting.

For me, the fascinating part of the book isn't the backstage look at Tiger but Haney himself and their dysfunctional coach-student relationship.  It seems Haney's relationship with Tiger was defined by a combination of awe and intimidation.  I didn't see a coach, but a subordinate who seemed to care a lot about Tiger's game but with motivations dominated by comparisons with Butch Harmon and cementing his own legacy.  I have no doubt that he is a world-class instructor, but this is much more than a Tiger-expose.  

Outside of Hank Haney, it's a fascinating look into the price of childhood fame and early success for someone of Tiger's personality.  Greatness throughout a lifetime is far from easy and there are many examples of spectacular flame-outs.  

Tiger is probably the most guarded and private superstar in an era where privacy is impossible.  Read the book, don't read the book, but you know if the curtain is open, we all like to watch.  

[Rich Goodale]

Quote from: Terry Lavin on Yesterday at 11:10:30 AM
Many years ago, I wrote an article about my mentor, a man who molded me from a very raw state into the sort of person who could hold his own in a courtroom.  It was entitled, "His Trials, My Tribulations: The Life and Times of a First-Year Lawyer".  I had a crazy, difficult but memorable first year in the trenches.  My mentor was one of the most successful lawyers in America.  My dad drove a Coca-Cola truck.  I had a father/son relationship with both men, but unlike my dad, my mentor was nothing short of brutal in his methods.  I would often go home on the train wiping my eyes, remembering some of the day's withering "lessons".

When I wrote an article about his 50th anniversary in the legal profession, it was an instructive, but laudatory article, despite the fact that the man was far from perfect.  Why didn't I dwell on the negatives?  Because he was "somebody" who plucked me from obscurity and turned me into a potential success story.  I would likely have done just fine in my profession of law, but I never would have achieved the many honors that I ultimately earned were it not for his intervention in my professional life.

The same is true for Hank Haney.  The only reason he is not still living his life in obscurity is the fact that Tiger Woods picked him from the crew on the driving range and gave him the job of his life.  The fact that he is pissing on the man who allowed him to catch fire is quite simply unpardonable.  

Amen

Terry L. & Rich G. -

Sorry, but I don't think you can compare the nature of writing a tribute article celebrating the career of a mentor to this situation. Hank Haney was not a golf pro "living in obscurity" when Tiger decided to work with him. Haney was already working with a 2-time major winner and was ranked among the top-5 golf teachers at the time.

DT

Sorry, David, but Hank was in fact "living in obscurity" prior to his association with Tiger, unless one is so obsessed with golf that he or she thinks that being "ranked among the top-5 golf teachers at the time" (by whom?) makes one unobscure in the real world.

As for the morality, I spent 35 years as a professional strategy consultant in virtually complete obscurity because that was what my clients demanded and what I consented to.  For Hank to break this covenant of responsibility and mutual respect so soon tells me that he is not a professional but a whore for increased royalties from his book.  Shame on him.

Rich

[Jud_T]

Whoring onesself out is nothing new.  If only Hank were someone I gave a f*@! about.

[Sean_A]

Rihc

They are all whores, the question is really about who is the best paid whore.  While I agree with David that Terry's analogy is a bit askew, HH is definitely like a squirrel zippering back and forth across the road - that is to say, not to be trusted.  Live and learn.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

It is not "they" who are all whores, but "we."  As Winston Churchill once said to Lady Astor( I think):  "...it just depends on the price."

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Did Churchill ever say anything witty to anyone else but Lady Astor?

[Rich Goodale]

Probably, Mark, but she was such an easy target.....

Further rsearch indicates......




George Bernard Shaw once found himself at a dinner party, seated beside an attractive woman. "Madam," he asked, "would you go to bed with me for a thousand pounds?" The woman blushed and rather indignantly shook her head.

"For ten thousand pounds?" he asked. "No. I would not." "Then how about fifty thousand pounds?" he contined.

The colossal sum gave the woman pause, and after further reflection, she coyly replied: "Perhaps." "And if I were to offer you five pounds?" Shaw asked.

"Mr. Shaw!" the woman exclaimed. "What do you take me for!" "We have already established what you are," Shaw calmly replied. "Now we are merely haggling over the price."

[This tale is told of others and is probably apocryphal.]

I still bet that the lady was Lady Astor......

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Rihc,

The woman in that Shaw anecdote is described as attractive.  Wasn't it Lady Astor who accused Churchill of being drunk, to which accusation he replied "and you, madam, are ugly but in the morning I shall be sober"?

[Jim Nugent]

Churchill was more than just a little clever.  When told he was not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition, he supposedly said, "that is the kind of arrant pedantry, up with which I shall not put."

[Greg Holland]

One other thing.  All those people asking how anyone can judge Tiger as a jerk without knowing him: have you seen him interviewed in the last 10 years?  Have you watched his on-course demeanour?  You don't need to have met the guy to judge that, if he's happy to behave like that with the cameras on him he must be worse without.  That's why Feinstein's piece in a magazine last month actually made me respect Woods more than I had before.  Despite all the outrage here, I suspect from the reviews that Haney's book will have the same effect.

Mark,

In judging Tiger based on interviews, do you give any consideration to the fact that the media follow him everywhere he goes?  Few athletes have had to deal with the media attention Tiger draws -- and I doubt any golfers have (though some say Ryo Isikawa gets the same treatment from Japaneses media now).  I suspect many folks would be a bit circumspect with the media if they had to deal with it 24/7, particularly if you had to answer the inane questions often posed to Tiger.   

As to Feinstein, it is well known that he does not like Tiger, he says so and tells the same story or two about interactions with Tiger that makes him not like him. 

[Mark Pearce]

Greg,

Yes I give consideration to that.  The fact that he hasn't bothered to try to present a pleasant, likeable public persona speaks to me loudly.

And I know Feinstein doesn't like Tiger.  He says so in his piece.  Which is why the fact that the piece is positive about Tiger is all the more surprising.  Have you read it?

[Jud_T]

I don't want to like Tiger and I don't want him to like me.  I want him to kick ass and take names...I want nothing from Haney except for his 15 minutes to be up...

[Mark Buzminski]

Heard him on the radio last evening, and a few of Haney's defenses for writing the book strike me as lame.  One, he says many other coaches have written books - he mentioned Joe Torre, Phil Jackson, and a few others I can't remember.  Difference is, he was a paid employee of Tiger, not simply a coach of a team as the other people he mentioned were.  It's an apple/oranges comparison and a totally different dynamic.  Secondly, he says 'they are my memories too'.  Well, yeah.  But the things most people are focusing on in this book are details of Tiger Woods' private life.  For example, if Tiger did not it to be common knowledge that he was training as a Navy SEAL - which it is pretty obvious he did not - it is totally dishonorable of him to publish that in a book.   These details about Tiger's personal life are the things that will sell this book, not Hank's memories of working on Tiger's golf game.  

[David_Tepper]

"As for the morality, I spent 35 years as a professional strategy consultant in virtually complete obscurity because that was what my clients demanded and what I consented to.  For Hank to break this covenant of responsibility and mutual respect so soon tells me that he is not a professional but a whore for increased royalties from his book.  Shame on him."

Rich -

The key words are what your "clients demanded" and what you "consented to." In the Tiger/Haney relationship, apparently there was neither demand or consent between parties.

I have a statement of ethics and privacy policy in the contract I sign with my clients. It would be interesting to know if the PGA of America has a stated policy regarding the "convenant of responsibility" in the teacher-student relationship. I doubt it.

After all, all Haney was doing was giving golf lessons.

P.S. Haney was ranked among the top 5 or 10 teaching pros for a number of years by Golf Digest/Golf magazine prior to being hired by Tiger.   

DT

[JR Potts]

I'm 130 pages in....started reading it last night around 9.

I think it's a great read which provides a great insight into the greatest player to ever play.

Not one thing I've read so far seems to be over the line in any way shape or form.

To those who are too sanctimonious to read the book, it's really your loss.  I checked my pride and standards for reading different materials when I subscribed to twitter and starting reading up my wife's US Magazines.

[Martin Toal]

Haney is not a doctor or a priest, so he can say what he likes, and if I remember correctly soon after he and Tiger broke up, Sean Foley was less than complimentary about Haney and his ability as a coach. One may presume that was done with Tiger's blessing.

Payback is a bitch.

[Rich Goodale]

"As for the morality, I spent 35 years as a professional strategy consultant in virtually complete obscurity because that was what my clients demanded and what I consented to.  For Hank to break this covenant of responsibility and mutual respect so soon tells me that he is not a professional but a whore for increased royalties from his book.  Shame on him."

Rich -

The key words are what your "clients demanded" and what you "consented to." In the Tiger/Haney relationship, apparently there was neither demand or consent between parties.

I have a statement of ethics and privacy policy in the contract I sign with my clients. It would be interesting to know if the PGA of America has a stated policy regarding the "convenant of responsibility" in the teacher-student relationship. I doubt it.

After all, all Haney was doing was giving golf lessons.

P.S. Haney was ranked among the top 5 or 10 teaching pros for a number of years by Golf Digest/Golf magazine prior to being hired by Tiger.   

DT

Hi David

When I wrote "clients demanded" I really meant it was/is the industry standard to be discrete.  I'm sure it is the same in any "profession" from doctors to lawyers to accounts to investment advisors to hookers and even indian chiefs....  More simply, it's called "common courtesy" and "good manners."

Rich

PS--I give as much credence to Hank's "rankings" as a teacher in selected golf magazines as I do to their ratings and rankings of golf courses, i.e. almost nil.  However, if I were ever to do a ranking of golf "teachers" my first and ne plus ultra criterion would be to "keep one's mouth shut."

j-p p

[George Pazin]

To those who are too sanctimonious to read the book, it's really your loss.  I checked my pride and standards for reading different materials when I subscribed to twitter and starting reading up my wife's US Magazines.

 

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's a matter of credibility; I simply don't trust what HH says. I can believe that he believes it, I just don't think that makes it true or accurate.

-----

I'm always confused by those who think Tiger is a jerk in interviews. I guess they're watching different interviews than the ones I see. Is he the most charming guy in the world? Hardly. I don't know that that makes him a jerk. But maybe that's just my inherent distrust of the media that makes me feel that way. I don't care much for the Feinsteins of the world, either, I generally find them much more offensive than the Tigers of the world.

[Craig Van Egmond]

George,

    I guess I don't understand why you feel that Tiger needs to be defended..  he maybe the greatest golfer of all time, but that doesn't mean he's even remotely a nice guy or a decent human being.  You have no proof that he is. So your hero is tainted, get used to it, he has sacrificed everything to be the best.

[Mark Pearce]

George,

Did you think Monty was a jerk, with his sullen on-course demeanour and his rudeness in interviews when he had played badly?  I did and I apply the same standard to Tiger.  If you don't think Monty was a jerk I'll understand better where you are coming from on Tiger.

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