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Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2012, 11:34:33 AM »

Dude... Tiger plays golf, unless he hits someone in the head with a club he has thrown or a ball he's hit, not much life or death there.


Craig Sweet

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Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2012, 12:03:11 PM »
Exactly Craig....Tiger didn't kill anyone....and as reprehensible as his actions were/are...he may very well have considered himself a good family man.

Just saying, those that say he knowingly presented a false image to the world might be wrong.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2012, 12:08:59 PM »

Craig,

    He could have been an absolute dbag too.. nobody here knows one way or the other.   Either way this book just makes both Hank and Tiger look like sad individuals.  Now back to the Kardesians!

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2012, 12:13:16 PM »
Tiger's team did very little in showcasing him a family man. They just continued what was started when he was single.

In fact, they went out of their way the first couple of years to keep Elin out of the spotlight.



I always wondered why.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Will MacEwen

Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #104 on: March 22, 2012, 12:56:36 PM »
Tiger got outed, Arnie and MANY others didn't. Nuff said.

I am with George on this. Tiger's team did very little in showcasing him a family man. They just continued what was started when he was single.

They didn't showcase him as a family man, but Tiger's "brand" was more than golf.  "There are no rainy days" suggested someone focussed and driven beyond all others.  We heard about his relentless workouts and practice sessions. 

When the crap hit the fan and the details came out, my wife was stunned because she assumed Tiger had no room or time in his life for shenanigans.  She knows nothing of golf, and knew Tiger only by his image.  I would suggest his image was about achievement and success, in a way that transcended golf.

If Tiger's brand was only about golf his sponsors wouldn't have been so quick to dump him.  Even Nike gave him a haircut on his contract, and I notice their blades no longer have TW on them.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2012, 01:12:04 PM »
Rick Smith (from Golf.com):

"I would rather be broke and not have a penny to my name before I violate the code of player-teacher confidentiality. In 27 years out here, I've never done that. I'm personally upset with Hank because he's broken and violated our code of ethics. If you have the opportunity and you're privileged to conversations, you will not and should not share anything from them with anyone. I don't care who it is.

"For all the guys who have committed their lives to teaching, this should be very upsetting and I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. What Hank did is against the rules."

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2012, 01:13:09 PM »
There are plenty of loving, caring, husbands, fathers, that go to work each day where they behave as total scumbags...making decisions that actually cause physical injury, even death to others....so I don't think its far fetched to think Tiger might have been a very good family man but also one of those people that compartmentalize their life to keep one from bleeding into the other.  Believe me, if I came home from work each day and thought the drone I was piloting was killing innocent children...the same age as my own...I might have to question the value of my life.

But if you were cheating on your wife to the degree that Tiger apparently was, you would still consider yourself a "loving, caring, husband[ ]" and a "good family man"?  

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2012, 01:13:31 PM »
I would suggest his image was about achievement and success, in a way that transcended golf.

If Tiger's brand was only about golf his sponsors wouldn't have been so quick to dump him.  Even Nike gave him a haircut on his contract, and I notice their blades no longer have TW on them.

Your first statement is very true, but it still all came out of success on the golf course. There are tons of successful people - even on this very site - who aren't paid tens of millions every year for their endorsements.

As for the second part, his golf has suffered a good bit during the whole thing. If he was still winning at the previous rate, he likely wouldn't have seen as much drop off, and more would be stepping forward even now. Sponsors are always quick to jump ship when anything controversial happens, it doesn't mean their previous sponsorship was based on the exact opposite of what occurred.

Someone said it many posts and threads ago - a lot of people are acting like they personally were screwed by Tiger in some manner. I'm hard pressed to see how people can take his private actions so personally. I can see it if you were the ones paying him megabucks for an endorsement, but just as a fan of golf, not so much.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2012, 01:27:16 PM »
George,

That's where the message/jist has got muddled in my opinion.  This thread isn't about Tiger per se, its about Haney and whether he should have written the tell-all book "about" Tiger.

In my opinion, I didn't see anything wrong about what Haney did even if some think its unethical.  He had a business opportunity to make some cash and he took it.  How is this any different than any person/business/corporation who sees an opportunity to make money, (which is legal), and then goes out and does it?

 

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2012, 01:46:00 PM »
How is this any different than any person/business/corporation who sees an opportunity to make money, (which is legal), and then goes out and does it?

Legal and moral/ethical are two widely different spectrums. There are many legal things that are despicable, but none the less legal.
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2012, 01:57:38 PM »
How is this any different than any person/business/corporation who sees an opportunity to make money, (which is legal), and then goes out and does it?

Legal and moral/ethical are two widely different spectrums. There are many legal things that are despicable, but none the less legal.

Emile,

I was hoping someone would point that out.

Corporate America is selling out America from underneath itself to the lowest bidder, and one of the worst offenders of that movement has a 50/50 chance of being the next president....and hardly anyone bats an eyelash.

Yet one guy does a tell all book that results in not one lost job and a mere pittance of a financial reward compared to the guys in the above scenario.... and everyone gets bent out of shape.

I guess I would have to agree with everyone else, just for different reasons, that America is indeed going to hell in a handbasket.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2012, 01:59:25 PM »
Dan C - I think your post/quote is at the heart of this, and it comes full circle back to Brad's original post/review.  Brad indeed seems to recognize that the teacher-client relationship is special (that's why he uses the analogy of a psychologist and his patient/client) -- but seems to come down on the side of saying that, in this case, it's not a priviledged/special relationship, and that not only is it okay but actually commendable that Hank wrote the book.  Putting aside all talk about good guys and bad guys and the press being weak and Tiger being a pr-ck, I gree with Rick.

Peter  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 02:01:55 PM by PPallotta »

Tim Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2012, 02:38:47 PM »
First off, fan of Tiger as a golfer and hopes he returns to what he was. Good for the game.

As for the book, while Haney may have been out of line but he still needs an income and he isnt saying anything, so far, that is a lie. While I am not a fan of reality TV and such, it seems that is where we are headed as a society.

Haney has written a book about a public figure, a public figure who has cashed hundreds of millions of dollars on a perceived image. There have been lots of books that were written in such a fashion and no outcry so why is everybody getting up in arms over this. If this book came out shortly after Tiger life hit the fan, my thinking is the book would have been very well received and Haney would have gotten congrats for bringing this story out. If Tiger didnt appear to be getting his game back, this book would be a non issue.

I hold no grudges against Tiger, I dont buy products based on celebrity endorsement and I dont hold athletes in higher regard just because they are good at their selected career(The sole exception is Jean Beliveau, that man defines class in any era).

The guy opened his wallet to accept these endorsements and it is his responsibilty to live up to the expectations that come with them. This is not anything new, if you want the money, you have to put up with the side effects. You dont want the hassle of being a celebrity, dont ask for the celebrity money.


Jud_T

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Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2012, 02:45:03 PM »
I can't imagine this is gonna help Hank gain a lot of other Tour players as clients... 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2012, 02:49:53 PM »
George,

That's where the message/jist has got muddled in my opinion.  This thread isn't about Tiger per se, its about Haney and whether he should have written the tell-all book "about" Tiger.

In my opinion, I didn't see anything wrong about what Haney did even if some think its unethical.  He had a business opportunity to make some cash and he took it.  How is this any different than any person/business/corporation who sees an opportunity to make money, (which is legal), and then goes out and does it?

 

Emile handled this quite capably, only reason I am posting is because you asked the question to me and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on Hank and presidential politicking. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2012, 02:53:27 PM »
I can't imagine this is gonna help Hank gain a lot of other Tour players as clients... 

I'm not sure where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure Hank has said that after Tiger he will never coach another pro.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »
I can't imagine this is gonna help Hank gain a lot of other Tour players as clients... 

I'm not sure where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure Hank has said that after Tiger he will never coach another pro.

By choice? :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2012, 03:09:41 PM »

By choice? :)

Haha ... I think he said that before the book came out, and said it was because once he's coached the best player in history, he really had nothing left to accomplish on Tour. But maybe that was PR, knowing that the book he was putting out was going to burn a whole lot of bridges.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2012, 03:15:57 PM »
Rick Smith (from Golf.com):

"I would rather be broke and not have a penny to my name before I violate the code of player-teacher confidentiality. In 27 years out here, I've never done that. I'm personally upset with Hank because he's broken and violated our code of ethics. If you have the opportunity and you're privileged to conversations, you will not and should not share anything from them with anyone. I don't care who it is.

"For all the guys who have committed their lives to teaching, this should be very upsetting and I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. What Hank did is against the rules."
Rick Smith is talking BS ("our code of ethics" - please).  Presumably he thinks this will help attract clients.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

SL_Solow

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Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2012, 04:08:27 PM »
As I see it the issue is not about one's view of Tiger, either as a person or as a player.  Nor is it whether the book will provide interesting insights into Tiger's character or, more importantly, the atmosphere and pressure that follows from becoming a dominant athlete given the increased scrutiny of public figures.  On that basis the book should be very interesting.   Brad's observations on that score should be respected.

But the real issue is whether Haney should have written the book.  It is clear to me that absent a NDA, he had every legal right to author the book.  If one's ethical inquiry stops with the questions " Am I prohibited by law from acting? "  or perhaps, more accurately, "Am I likely to lose a civil suit if I take the action in question?" and finally, "Am I likely to profit handsomely if I take the action?" then the answer is quite simple.  However, I have always thought that ethical questions were more complex than a mere calculation of the monetary gain versus risk of punishment or loss.  It is a weighing of what is the right thing to do, a philosophical issue that in various forms has been debated forever and which ultimately determines how we view ourselves and how others view us.

Here, our sense of the boundaries of privacy has been dulled by modern technology.  The presence of cell phone cameras, twitter, facebook and the like has led many of us to conclude that anytime we are exposed to those outside of our closest confidantes and outside of our homes, we must assume that everything we say or do may become exposed to the world at large.  How much more exposed must be the celebrities?  But, given that reality, isn't the confidential nature of one's relationships with those who are part of his or her's inner circle that much more valuable and isn't a breach of that trust an even greater betrayal than it was in simpler times?  Whether he was paid or not, whether that pay was appropriate or miserly, Haney was invited into Tiger's inner circle and made privy to things that Tiger considered private.  If in order to respect that privacy Haney required a written contract, shame on Tiger for not requiring one.  But more importantly, shame on Haney for failing to recognize that by writing the book he betrayed a trust for money.  I agree that Tiger may have little standing to complain about a betrayal of trust, but this is not about Tiger.  It is about judging Haney, not as golf teacher but as a man.  I have never met him so I can only evaluate his actions.  Based on this activity, he is far from admirable.  But he will be wealthier.  To each his own.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 02:34:06 PM by SL_Solow »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2012, 04:18:41 PM »
To type "+1" doesn't do SL's post justice; every line is good and on point.

It reminds me of what a writer once noted: that the rules of chess aren't there to make the game -- or our choices -- any easier; they are there to force us to make the best choices we can under difficult circumstances.

As SL writes: to each his own.   

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2012, 05:16:21 PM »
I want SL on my side in any suit.

Bob

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2012, 05:57:56 PM »
I`m sure the reason Tiger didn`t require Haney to execute an NDA is that it didn`t dawn on him that he would need it. Haney was a little different than a live-in housekeeper-no?

jeffwarne

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Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »
I can't imagine this is gonna help Hank gain a lot of other Tour players as clients...  

I'm not sure where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure Hank has said that after Tiger he will never coach another pro.

that may be the case, but it likely won't be Haney's choice.......
Rick Smith and SL Solow have it right on this one.

Honestly I really have as much of a problem with the writing of the book as I do hearing Haney allowing himself to be treated like a cabana boy for 6 years.
 Bad enough to have no self respect being a supposed leader in his profession, but to then write about it?
what's next ? tiger sexually abused him? :o :o ::) ::) :-[ :-[ :-[

I'd love to see Tiger tell Butch to go get the takeout......
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 06:22:26 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Review of Hank Haney's "The Big Miss"
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2012, 06:22:23 PM »
There is no sin in being a false idol, it's their worship that results in mayhem.

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