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Jud_T

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2014, 01:59:37 PM »
Paul,

Do you care about what Ben Crenshaw does next?  The hope is that he's doing more than just marketing his name and he and his team can actually make a real contribution in GCA terms.  A bit of a long shot I grant you, but hope spring eternal.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2014, 02:08:57 PM »
Whatever his overall contribution is the golf course will be solid at worst. With Paul acting as project manager on behalf of the developer and on site/equipment on a daily basis details will be looked after, subtle tweaks/improvements made and a good course will result.

Going with Tiger was a no brainer for the developer. As much as some on here want to ignore the marketing side of things it is all that matters at the end of the day when your investment/livelihood is on the line.

They could have hired Hanse to do a very good course and would be light years behind in sales at this stage.

It is what it is and with Paul's involvement I would say a win/win/win for the owner, bankers and golfers.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 05:07:03 PM by Greg Tallman »

paul cowley

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2014, 03:17:57 PM »
Thanks Greg - Tiger has put together a very strong design team in Beau Welling and Shane Robichard, and the El Cardonal course is excellent and a great compliment to the Dunes course. I don't want to preview more in advance of its late fall opening except to say Tiger's first course will be well worth the wait!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Paul Gray

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2014, 04:21:23 PM »
Jud,

To put it simply, no. That said, Crenshaw's long standing interest in quality architecture puts him a long way ahead of Colin Montgomerie, Nick Faldo or the majority of other pros that slap their name on a product.

I spent last year playing what was supposedly a Peter Alliss course. Being "the voice of golf" didn't make the course any better.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2014, 12:07:14 PM »

Going with Tiger was a no brainer for the developer. As much as some on here want to ignore the marketing side of things it is all that matters at the end of the day when your investment/livelihood is on the line.

They could have hired Hanse to do a very good course and would be light year's behind in sales at this stage.


Greg

I believe that if they added Tiger's fee to their existing PR and advertising budgets, in the right targeted markets, they would be just as well off, if not better.
IMO Owners buy a property for the following not Tiger:
Gated security, an ocean, private beach, golf, clubhouse, crystal lagoon, spa, fitness center, equestrian center, concierge, high speed internet, tennis, family center, five star service...

How can you prove me wrong?

Cheers
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2014, 12:24:14 PM »
"How can you prove me wrong?"

Sales.  Developers who can do these deals aren't stupid.  Very few if any would hire Woods or Nicklaus just to rub shoulders.  Buyers at this level are far more familiar with Tiger Woods than Gil Hanse, and I suspect that the best player's name also has much greater cache with their friends and associates.  That the developer would bring in someone like Paul demonstrates that he is covering all bases.  Of course, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 12:26:25 PM by Lou_Duran »

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »

How can you prove me wrong?

Cheers
Mike


By talking with and listening to thousands of golfers that have traveled to this area and will return, at least in part, to play Tiger's first course. Of course I could wheel out all of the free advertising they have received via tiger's name but that will only grow exponentially over the coming months.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2014, 05:16:10 PM »
"How can you prove me wrong?"

Sales.  Developers who can do these deals aren't stupid.  Very few if any would hire Woods or Nicklaus just to rub shoulders.  Buyers at this level are far more familiar with Tiger Woods than Gil Hanse, and I suspect that the best player's name also has much greater cache with their friends and associates.  That the developer would bring in someone like Paul demonstrates that he is covering all bases.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Lou, you are not. The decision was between THE name and, with all due respect (he knows I mean that), a no name. The fact is the course would never rival the one already in the ground and the only way to generate buzz was by opening the first Tiger Woods course on planet earth. Quite frankly easy decision with the future of the project in the balance.

Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking. 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2014, 08:18:17 PM »
Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.

Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?

It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.

I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2014, 10:04:09 PM »

Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking. 


Greg,

Your comments are appreciated. I only wish that Cabo was not so far away. We have a family friend that has offered us their house in Cabo and it is just too far at this stage of life. I went back to your old interview:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewtallman/

What does the future hold for the greater region around Cabo San Lucas from a golf perspective?


The future of golf in the region is very bright. As mentioned before the finest architects in the business are being given some great parcels of land on which to design their courses. In the next 10 years we should see upwards of 20 new courses open in the Los Cabos area. The development of the pacific side (Los Cabos is actually on The Gulf of California or Sea of Cortéz) along the the area beyond San José del Cabo known as the East Cape is moving full steam ahead with some exciting new projects in the works that will certainly add to the lure of Cabo as a must see golf destination.It is not only the immediate are of Cabo that is growing either. Some day in the future you will see golf junkies planning extended vacations to Los Cabos only to take a few days out of the trip to visit Todos Santos, approximately one hour north in the Pacific Ocean and La Paz, the state capital that is about 2 and one half hours north on the Sea Of Cortéz as the golf is beginning to develop in these areas as well. Baja is a special place ¦ among the best on earth.

Considering this was done in 2008, it seems you were pretty close in your predictions.

As the resort moves forward, it will be interesting to see/understand how much the Tiger brand/name brings in.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2014, 09:18:24 AM »
Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.

Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?

It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.

I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.

Cheers

Mike, my no name reference was to the person actually under consideration for the course when they flipped to Tiger.

That project, specifically the portion around the Tiger course, is predominantly timeshare rather than real estate and thus Tiger's name has has had a huge impact on the sales process and success. Also being able to point out Tiger's home on site plays on the vanity of even the most successful executive types.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2014, 10:43:08 AM »
Greg,
I wasn't referring to myself as a competitor but as a golfer and home owner.
It is not free advertising.
It is paid in the form of a fee to Tiger and the existing PR and advertising budgets.

Lou,
What were the sales of El Ruwaya, Punta Brava, The Cliffs or Carlton Woods?

It is my belief that a future home owner cares more about a gated entrance or high speed internet than who designed the golf course.

I am asking for proof that if I developed a real estate golf course and spent $5-20MM on PR and advertising about having the best internet access in the world, the best gated security + all the other amenities, that I wouldn't sell just as much real estate.

Cheers

Mike, my no name reference was to the person actually under consideration for the course when they flipped to Tiger.

That project, specifically the portion around the Tiger course, is predominantly timeshare rather than real estate and thus Tiger's name has has had a huge impact on the sales process and success. Also being able to point out Tiger's home on site plays on the vanity of even the most successful executive types.


Being a member at Diamante myself and seeing the course last December on a tour with Paul, I will agree with his comments.
A good compliment to the Dunes course, a good variety of golf holes and what looks like being a very good finishing stretch.
As for the use og TIGER WOODS for sales, it has been a windstorm of success.
From the moment his name was associated with the development the sales have been flourishing, perhaps we on here underestimate the power of the man in making sales?

Having seen the sales figures since his involvement, it is beyond statistical significance to be just a result of improving economies ;)

As good as the Dunes course is, I promise you Tiger moves the sales needle better than a top 50 golf course in the world on the same property does.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2014, 11:17:00 AM »

Your comment about shoulder rubbing might be a little naïve though... generally speaking. 


Greg,

Your comments are appreciated. I only wish that Cabo was not so far away. We have a family friend that has offered us their house in Cabo and it is just too far at this stage of life. I went back to your old interview:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewtallman/

What does the future hold for the greater region around Cabo San Lucas from a golf perspective?


The future of golf in the region is very bright. As mentioned before the finest architects in the business are being given some great parcels of land on which to design their courses. In the next 10 years we should see upwards of 20 new courses open in the Los Cabos area. The development of the pacific side (Los Cabos is actually on The Gulf of California or Sea of Cortéz) along the the area beyond San José del Cabo known as the East Cape is moving full steam ahead with some exciting new projects in the works that will certainly add to the lure of Cabo as a must see golf destination.It is not only the immediate are of Cabo that is growing either. Some day in the future you will see golf junkies planning extended vacations to Los Cabos only to take a few days out of the trip to visit Todos Santos, approximately one hour north in the Pacific Ocean and La Paz, the state capital that is about 2 and one half hours north on the Sea Of Cortéz as the golf is beginning to develop in these areas as well. Baja is a special place ¦ among the best on earth.

Considering this was done in 2008, it seems you were pretty close in your predictions.

As the resort moves forward, it will be interesting to see/understand how much the Tiger brand/name brings in.


1. Too far from where?

2. While the crash that occurred a few months after that interview brought Cabo to a screeching halt for a few years it does appear things are back on track. Through the collapse of the world economy Ken & team at Diamante not only weathered the storm but opened a terrific golf course and got enough traction development wise to come out the other end and will open the Tiger course this fall; Chileno Bay managed to find money to keep things alive to the point that a golf course that was practically finished in 2009 should open in earnest this fall or winter and Quivira kept things alive and will now open their first course this summer. Not many locations/destinations can say they will introduce three new courses at roughly the same time these days. In fact I would say perhaps Cabo would stand alone in that regard.

Some of the projects on the drawing board back in 2008 are either in a permanent holding pattern or have been scrapped all together. That said there are a few others, beyond those mentioned above, that are either in construction or should start soon.
-Greg Norman's team will get started on a course a little north (not adjacent) of Diamante on the Pacific sometime this year. 
-Rees Jones is doing a course just south of Loreto about 5-6 hours north of Cabo
-Nicklaus likely to get started on a project just northeast of San José del Cabo - same project Bill Coore had worked on routing plans for the previous developer

If a million, perhaps several million, things fall into place we could see a C&C involvement on the Pacific.  It is a bit of a long shot at this stage but one can hope. 

 

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2014, 03:34:49 PM »
and the Mountain course????????

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2014, 04:08:24 PM »
and the Mountain course????????

Some day... let's chat soon about some ideas (yeah, apologies in advance). And you know darn well we'll have grass on the ground before I put anything concrete about that on GCA.

Road trip to Morgantown in early December?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2014, 08:34:57 PM »

1. Too far from where?
  

We are in NYC. Yes I know there are direct flights now to Cabo, but I am married to a Disneyfile and I will just have to live with Doak and C&C courses 45 minutes from Mickey and Walt at Disneyworld.

Yes, I understand the power of Tiger's Brand. I/we/my wife bought a Mickey Mouse time share surrounded by Doak 4's on over watered lake filled courses in Orlando :) I am one of the few in Florida who bought 10 years ago and has not lost his shirt  ;D Mickey and Tiger  have pull same as jobs and schools in traditional markets.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:36:42 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Howard Riefs

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2014, 02:42:14 PM »
MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2014, 05:36:47 AM »

MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!


I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.

That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2014, 10:24:57 AM »

MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!


I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.

That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.

That is welcome news as he and I have a tee time in about an hour at Chileno Bay Club. I may only lose 3&2.  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2014, 11:46:33 AM »
I hadn't seen this thread before, but just saw the photos from opening day. Two thoughts came to mind: 1) I wonder if Paul C was involved, and 2) it looks a lot like a C&C course. Thumbs up on both counts!

Peter

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2014, 05:39:22 PM »

MWP is slacking... played it yesterday and nary a comment as yet. Poor form for a GCA stalwart!!!


I heard he shot 87 and now chips/pitches as poorly as Tiger. He used to have some game back in the day,but now he can't play dead ;D.

That's what happens when you live in Arkansas.

That is welcome news as he and I have a tee time in about an hour at Chileno Bay Club. I may only lose 3&2.  ;)

No such luck. MWP must play a mean guitar in his spare time as he is quite the "picker" and covered the flag on any number of approaches.

Entertaining to play with a guy who points out swing faults and talks himself into a bad swing more often than I! Good thing we were a twosome as had we been paired with the other 2 players on the course they would have assumed we were completely nuts and quite defeatist... correctly I am afraid.

The course is coming along nicely and they are starting to finish off the bunker complex surrounds that will make a huge difference. Once they complete that and get the turf thinned out a bit the course will be a head turner. Perhaps Fazio's best, certainly among his most natural. Only the finishing hole is a bit of "old Fazio" with a massive green with broad sweeping slopes at the end of a 510 yard par 4... I'll let MWP take a shot at that as this was among a quite brief list of critiques on a very good golf course.

Enjoyed chatting about the new Tiger course as well but when MWP shows with the Swoosh from head to orange and yellow toe one must wonder a bit.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2014, 10:45:23 AM »
Greg oh Greg.....
Only he could possibly write like that, tell the truth and make me laugh histerically that is the definition of a true friend....awesome.
Just a quickie and hopefully when  I get back to the mainland and have time to put a more detailed few sentences together, a more detailed description.

El Cardonal ,or Tigers course, a good adjunct to the superb dunes course.
More player friendly for certain which was the primary mission statement, nothing like a C AND C course, pictures must be misleading but not said in a negative way.
Very Fazio'ish which makes perfect sense considering co designers are Fazio disciples.
Greens are very playable have some marvelous contours without going overboard and making the time on the green excessive and frustrating.
Good use of the terrain and hole shaping to match said terrain, bunkering looks very nice, finishing on the bunkers came out superbly, perhaps too many at times but thus the Fazio influence one feels.
MARVELOUS variety of tee placements which serves to fulfill the primate goal of making a go,f course all can play.
I would imagine that all at Tiger Woods design are happy with the finished product as are the vast majority of members that I have talked to since, and bottom line is that if the owner and members are happy, job accomplished.

Big challenge in my mind is to see how the next course over very similar terrain is designed to differ and provide the membership with something different.  

CHILEBO BAY.
Many in here know that my general comments on FAzio courses are"never played a bad one, but never played one that makes me excited" that I believe would probably fit into what a lot of think about the good mans work.
Incredibly consistent, always of good quality but often  lacking panache and being a little samey with the odd few green complexes that leave you starching your head.
CHILENO IS NOT one of those.
I have not played Wade Hampton but this is my favorite Fazio layout so far.
Yes it is unfinished around the bunkers, some without mush sand, but considering a massive Hurricane not long ago and multiple owner shake ups along the way, this is one damn good golf course.
Great greens that resemble the eb and flow of the Ocean, nice gentle rolls perhaps increasing to the odd swell here and there, tremendous run off and collection areas, wonderful vistas and deceiving carries, option to playing holes abound, the course plays more like a C&C or Doak in terms of  strategy , great variety of hole types especially if one mixes and matches the tee boxes, which is what GReg and I did.
Wonderful golf course and in my mind in the top three in the area even in it's current state of unfinishing.
BUT as a downer number 18 needs work

As for Greg!!!!!!!!
The ultimate host,tour guide,officianado ofgolf tourism business and just simply great guy.
His passion for Cabo golf is palpable,the area is back and running and bang for your buck as good as ANYWHERE I know or have travelled.
One of my favorite places anywhere and to be able to share  a round of golf here with one who has become a friend over the years, one to put into the bucket list of things to do again😄and again.

Coffee time over, last day here, time to go up to the range convince myself that my swing fault can indeed be corrected even after 30 odd years of old school abuse and when I get than downhill hanging lie remember Gregs good words and don't convince myself I CANT HIT the shot before I start😱

As for the NIke head to toe...yes I love the swoosh and they are very good to me, but this is golf course architecture and that is serious stuff, gloves off😉
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 10:53:55 AM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger to Design New Course in Cabo...
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2014, 11:51:42 AM »
Interesting tidbit that tee times on the Dunes course were easy to come by this week while people lined up for the far lesser El Cardonal. Anyone wondering about the value of Tiger's name need look no further than that. As with everything else thus far the Diamante team hit a home run with this one.

Best summation of the golf course... Kinda like marrying into the Rockefeller family; "what does she look like?"... "Who cares, she's a Rockefeller"