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Chris Johnston

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2012, 08:01:51 PM »
Thank you Chris. I have a better feel for what you are saying. cheers and good luck

Anytime, Tiger.  Really hope you come out.

I have a funny question for you which I will do in private.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »
Chris:

The point was to see if there was any validity to the claim that the architecture always was great.

From what I've read, Jack, influenced by his Sebonack experience, took on the construction of a type of course that he had not yet tackled.  I believe his quote after the Sebonack experience was that they were making things too perfect.  I think his vision for what could be at Dismal was not perfectly translated to the canvas of the land, most likely because his team had never designed for or constructed a course on the type of property they saw in the Sand Hills.  They didn't miss the mark by much, but they did miss.

So what happens next is a series of tweaks, changes and alterations that individually do not seem grand in scale, but when looked at in their totality appear to have changed the nature of several holes fairly drastically (most likely for the better) from what was first built.  The fact that they were irrigating the rough seems to have been a major misstep from the get go, one that may have been avoided with a bit of study of other courses built on similar land.  Go back and read the thread discussing how Jack didn't visit Sand Hills before embarking at Dismal.  I can understand his wanting to give Dismal his version of a NE Sand Hills course without being influenced by any thoughts he might have absorbed from its neighbor.  But the least he and his team could have done for the first owners was to have asked the pertinent questions about practical features of the land, such as does watering the rough make any sense.

As the third owner, you've inherited a course that for most of its lifetime was a work in progress.  From what you've said, that work is still taking place, whether in design changes or in the constant battle by your super to present the best possible conditions.  From what Mac said, that work is noticeable to the member on a year by year basis.  

All new courses go through tweaks.  C&C does it, Doak does it and even Nicklaus does it.  When those tweaks are focused on softening a contour here, supporting a bunker face there or adding a variant to the maintenance meld, you're looking at a design that hit its mark.  The minor tweaks are the inevitable maintenance that is needed when working with the ever changing medium of land.  When the tweaks are needed to right flaws in the initial design parameters, such as major regrading of fairways, softening greens that had slopes too severe for the designed contours or deciding to pull the pipes out of the rough, I'd say the initial design missed its mark.

The real case study is going to be when we look back on what Tom does on the second course.  Of course he has the benefit of learning from all of Jack's missteps.  But I'd bet even without those lessons he'd come a lot closer to the bullseye than Jack did on his first go.

Respectfully,

Sven

PS - JNC - let's not compare apples and oranges when we're talking about the changes made to ODG courses and modern courses.   The changes in design and construction technology have made the process a lot easier today, thus negating the need for many of the tweaks made to some of the older courses in their infancy.  Not to mention the back-of-the-napkin need-to-catch-my-next-train attitude of many early architects.  We won't even get started on the way the evolution of golf equipment technology influenced course renovation back in the day.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2012, 08:05:56 PM »
Eric, sadly I can't make those dates work. I'm glad to see friends like Brandon & Matt B sign up though. I appreciate the invite.

I'm glad they're coming too. I'll let you know my other dates this summer and fall and maybe you'll be able to make it out then.


JNC Lyon

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2012, 08:18:00 PM »
PS - JNC - let's not compare apples and oranges when we're talking about the changes made to ODG courses and modern courses.   The changes in design and construction technology have made the process a lot easier today, thus negating the need for many of the tweaks made to some of the older courses in their infancy.  Not to mention the back-of-the-napkin need-to-catch-my-next-train attitude of many early architects.  We won't even get started on the way the evolution of golf equipment technology influenced course renovation back in the day.


Sven,

I'm pretty well aware of the changes between construction techniques now and the 1920s.  Yet while the construction process has changed, the thought process that goes into a course changing over the years.  Now matter what you do during construction, you are never quite sure how a course will play in its finished form.  Sometimes the architect gets it right on the first try, other times a course is better off if it is altered after the original construction.  This was the case 100 years ago, and it is still true.

Dismal River is unusual in that it is a high profile golf course that was altered shortly after completion.  But how many courses could benefit from changes after completion, just as Dismal has?  My guess is, a ton.  No golf course is perfect, and few reach their absolute maximum potential.  Nearly every course I've played (including Dismal) could use at least a tweak here or there.

With all of that said, it seems there is, as Scott points, a hangover from the severity of the original Dismal course and subsequent modifications.  If a course is "mediocre" at completion and becomes "very good" after later changes, is it better or worse than a course that was merely "good" at completion and has had no changes?  I would say the "very good" beats the "good" course every day of the week, regardless of how it got there.  You want to use the fact that Dismal had to be changed to assess Nicklaus and Co's talents as architects? Fine.  But don't use it to assess the quality of the Dismal River course today.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2012, 08:21:22 PM »
JNC:

Did I make any comments as to quality of the Dismal course today?  If anything, I said it sounds like the course is getting better every year.

Which makes the reticence expressed on this thread to examine why this is the case very puzzling. 

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2012, 08:27:32 PM »
JNC:

Did I make any comments as to quality of the Dismal course today?  If anything, I said it sounds like the course is getting better every year.

Which makes the reticence expressed on this thread to examine why this is the case very puzzling.  

Sven

Where have we gotten to in the world of golf that it is far harder to say that the critics got it wrong than the architect got it right?  This was the 250th course that someone hired Jack Nicklaus to build.  It was as great a course the day it opened as Einstein was a genius the day he was born.  Some of us are more prone to see greatness than to reveal fault.  What a pity.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 08:29:50 PM by John Kavanaugh »

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2012, 08:35:04 PM »
JNC:

Did I make any comments as to quality of the Dismal course today?  If anything, I said it sounds like the course is getting better every year.

Which makes the reticence expressed on this thread to examine why this is the case very puzzling.  

Sven

The last couple sentences were meant more generally, not toward you specifically.  Clearly some used Dismal's past to judge its present unfairly, but it wasn't meant toward anyone specifically.

And I'm not sure what you mean by reticence.  I think there has been a decent amount of assessment here and plenty of frank commentary, but I think this case is fairly simple:  Dismal River was likely too severe when it was first built.  After a couple years of fumbling around, Dismal got a couple of owners who were willing to make the necessary changes to club, both architecturally and managerially.  As a result, the course has become more enjoyable, and the "vibe," as Dan Herrmann puts it, is unmatched.  CJ has also been an excellent promoter for Dismal River, and a club and a course, in my mind, that deserves promotion.

Dismal River had people involved that were willing to change the club for the better.  That's what I take out of it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 08:52:17 PM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2012, 08:38:04 PM »
JNC,

The green contour changes were made before Chris bought the club.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2012, 08:44:01 PM »
JNC,

The green contour changes were made before Chris bought the club.

John - True.  So was 13.  

We have only moved 18 green and widened 9 fairway a bit.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2012, 08:49:25 PM »
John,

So courses should be reviewed on potential?  If that's the case, are we not just reviewing the land?

"Some of us are more qualified to see greatness than to reveal fault.  What a pity."  As for this statement, the judgment and derision is ripe in you.  To see the greatness, you need to see the fault.  The real genius in this equation was the guy who figured out what needed to be done to fix the problems.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2012, 08:51:46 PM »
JNC,

The green contour changes were made before Chris bought the club.

John - True.  So was 13.  

We have only moved 18 green and widened 9 fairway a bit.

A quick look back at this thread shows I messed up on this one.  Oh well, never let facts get in the way of a good argument! ::) ;D
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2012, 08:52:08 PM »
One might find it interesting that Jack visited Friars Head during Sebonack. He was so impressed with what Coore had done that it influenced him going forward.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2012, 08:59:53 PM »
John,

So courses should be reviewed on potential?  If that's the case, are we not just reviewing the land?

"Some of us are more qualified to see greatness than to reveal fault.  What a pity."  As for this statement, the judgment and derision is ripe in you.  To see the greatness, you need to see the fault.  The real genius in this equation was the guy who figured out what needed to be done to fix the problems.

Sven



Sven,

You do not need to reveal faults to see greatness.  If that were true how would have a guy like me have ever gotten married?  How would opera inspire grown men to cry?  I always thought art museums put ropes in front of paintings to protect the art work.  I guess it is to protect the fault seekers from having a bad day by looking too close.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:05:53 PM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2012, 09:02:23 PM »
One might find it interesting that Jack visited Friars Head during Sebonack. He was so impressed with what Coore had done that it influenced him going forward.

Thank God neither Jack nor I visited Sand Hills before we saw Dismal.  He may have graded in some boredom and I may have seen all her faults.  The courses are so different that I perfectly understand how it is difficult for a rational mind to embrace both.  I am not immune to peer pressure and may have rejected the design of Dismal simply because it did not fit the mold.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2012, 09:14:46 PM »
The courses are so different that I perfectly understand how it is difficult for a rational mind to embrace both.  I am not immune to peer pressure and may have rejected the design of Dismal simply because it did not fit the mold.

Hmmm...not too shabby there John.  Not too shabby.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2012, 09:20:01 PM »
John - That's really well said.

I had the great privilege of being able to play Sand Hills after the 5th Major last year.  Let's not kid ourselves, Sand Hills is a better golf course than DR.  But then again, you need to realize that Sand Hills is better than, what, all but 15 other courses in the whole world!

Both experiences were amazing in a completely different way.  But what stands out to me is just how much the staff of each club really gives a damn.   (Shoot - the SH staff tried SO hard to get us to go the the July 4 fireworks in Mullen, but we were driving back home the next day, so we had to pass, which was a dumb decision on my part) They make a great experience a world-class experience.

Laura and I were welcomed like family at both clubs, and we sure didn't deserve it - we're normal, middle-class folks with a sick love of golf.

Hooker County, Nebraska is a friggin' special place.   

And it's only going to get better with the Doak course up by the river.  I've seen the routing in person, and it's very dramatic.  Compare the Doak #3 to Merion East #3 - I see similarities, but that bunker at DR 3 to the right of the green may need safety ropes due to the drop.

Jim C - that's your case study. 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2012, 09:23:40 PM »
But what stands out to me is just how much the staff of each club really gives a damn.

Yes, yes, yes!!!!  This is part of the magic of going there for me.  The people.  They are special.  I love being around them.  Mullen is truly amazing in all ways.  Sand Hills, Dismal...whatever.  It is one of the truly wonderful places on the face of the planet.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2012, 09:31:59 PM »
Mac, you disapproved publicly of this thread and its sibling, but are now enthusiastically participating in both. What changed?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2012, 09:38:50 PM »
John,

So courses should be reviewed on potential?  If that's the case, are we not just reviewing the land?

"Some of us are more qualified to see greatness than to reveal fault.  What a pity."  As for this statement, the judgment and derision is ripe in you.  To see the greatness, you need to see the fault.  The real genius in this equation was the guy who figured out what needed to be done to fix the problems.

Sven



Sven,

You do not need to reveal faults to see greatness.  If that were true how would have a guy like me have ever gotten married?  How would opera inspire grown men to cry?  I always thought art museums put ropes in front of paintings to protect the art work.  I guess it is to protect the fault seekers from having a bad day by looking too close.

That's the thing about love John, it defies logic.  I'm sure you love Dismal, maybe more than your wife loves you.  And I'm sure you are both blind to the respective faults.

There's a difference between a potential for greatness and revealed greatness.  Revealed greatness is devoid of faults.  What you described at Dismal was the former.  La Boheme and the Mona Lisa did not need a reworking or a second artist to add their touch to "find" the greatness.  Dismal did.

As for Jack's avoidance of Sand Hills, I can understand this from a design perspective, but I can't understand it from a practical perspective.  Your comment ignores the idea that there was a lot to learn about the construction process on the land in the Sand Hills that appears to have been ignored by Jack's team.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2012, 09:46:39 PM »
Mac, you disapproved publicly of this thread and its sibling, but are now enthusiastically participating in both. What changed?

Frickin' Jim did it.  He overcame the food fight, kept the thread on track, and it yielded good fruit.  I am impressed.  That Jim Colton...amazing!!  The Ben Cox Marathon and now this.  I am stunned.  (and yes, I used that word on purpose).

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2012, 09:51:24 PM »
Mac:

You're right, without Jim this would have devolved into the GCA version of Team Gay Werewolf and Team Pasty Vampire, or whatever those SparkleFang Movie fans call it.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2012, 10:06:33 PM »
Sven,

Assuming all your points are correct:

The course was mediocre when it opened
Jack's not having gone to Sand Hills prevented DR from being great in it's inception
It can't be truly great because it needed work/softening to get to it's current state
Etc.

My question to you is, so what?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2012, 10:07:46 PM »
The Nicklaus course was simply too far ahead of its time.  The only thing that has changed is perception.  

That has to be the most ignorant statement I've ever seen you make on here John. Welcome to my club.

While I have not read this whole thread yet, There seems to be an error in the record of changes.
 The greens, for the most part, were not softened as much as they were altered (several times from my experiences) by adding internal contours, WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR MOST OF THE FUN.

CJ, You widened 2 fairway too.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:21:29 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2012, 10:08:51 PM »
Sven,

Assuming all your points are correct:

The course was mediocre when it opened
Jack's not having gone to Sand Hills prevented DR from being great in it's inception
It can't be truly great because it needed work/softening to get to it's current state
Etc.

My question to you is, so what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSXewHr-j0

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2012, 10:13:58 PM »
Some times it scares me when youre thinking exactly what I am.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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