[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,
After reading what you wrote yesterday on the other site, I'm skeptical of your intentions.

I do not understand how we can continue, out of fairness to Jim, without knowing what was written on this "other site."

[George Pazin]

Can you highlight the other changes besides 18? I posted some aerials above on #13 -- any insight on what's going on there? What were some of the other significant changes.

I recall JK posting an interesting thread awhile back about the changes to 18, I will try to find it. He and others shared quite a bit.

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

 That's great stuff. Thanks for sharing. Obviously you deserve a lot of credit for the transformation.

 Can you highlight the other changes besides 18? I posted some aerials above on #13 -- any insight on what's going on there? What were some of the other significant changes.

 If you had to split the drivers of success into percentages (say course changes, maintenance practices, management/vibe changes), how would you divvy that up?

Jim - I want nor deserve no credit, other than maybe bringing a touch of Sand Hills to its neighbor and recognizing the market.  Dismal River isn't about me...it's about YOU, the golfer who has choices.  Those who come to Dismal River get my best, everyday.  When I'm gone, the next guy had better carry that on.

I have no ability to assess the drivers of success.  Like free throws, defense, jump shots, rebounding, and turnovers, it all matters.  There are a thousand details.  

I like to say a great place is like a great cake.  People like different kinds of cake.  A terrific cake can be impacted by a bad frosting.  Great frosting can be impacted by a bad cake.  We try everyday to deliver a good cake with good frosting.  We don't care if you eat the cake with a fork, spoon, spork, or fingers.  There is no one size fits all "golfer", but most don't give much of a hoot about architecture or ratings.  They just want to play and have fun. 

As posted yesterday, we don't compete with Ballyneal...we compete with everything else.  That's why we support Ballyneal.  We are neighbors, brothers of sorts, and complimentary in a world full of "everything else".

Taking away architectural bias, both places fit my definition of "cool".  I just like good cake.

[Jim Colton]

John,

 I said that "I didn't think Dismal River was a great course" based on information I had gathered from various trusted sources, just like I'd do when searching out information on any course I was thinking about visiting. Don and some others took exception to it and the thread was deleted. Fair enough. I admit I was probably over the line, though Mac said he didn't have a problem with it.

 This is probably violating some sort of 'What happens in Vegas' clause, but Mark Saltzman quotes GCA over there so maybe I'm okay:

"Mac, that sounds like the right mindset. However the rub is very few of us have the budget or time to dedicate to seeing golf courses that you do. Personally, I have to rely on ratings, friends and other sources to figure out what to prioritize for the remaining years I have on this Earth. Might I end up missing out on a course I might otherwise enjoy? Sure, but that's just the risk you take. Sure, preconceived notions might play a role in this, right or wrong. I'm not particularly fond of Jim Engh's work, it just doesn't float my boat.  Still, we took a day to play Sanctuary last year and the course was even worse than we expected, even coming in with an open mind for that style. That day (which came at opportunity cost of 36-45 holes at Ballyneal) further cemented my belief to just focus on stuff I have a high propensity to enjoy.  I'd like to see and experience everything but that's just not realistic. I doubt Tiger regrets not seeing or playing the entire course, he probably just regrets going there in the first place when he could've just played wild horse instead.

As far as DR goes, tiger stated on the other thread that he didn't think Dismal was a great course. You and a couple guys jumped on him. Now it comes out that he based that seeing a few holes, adding more fuel to the fire. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but based on everything I've seen or read, I'd say that "Dismal River is not a great course", with a caveat that i haven't seen any of the holes! That just means my opinion isnt worth much. But I had the opportunity to play the course last year and went through the same exercise of deciding whether to do it or not. I asked a friend for a detailed hole-by-hole and he gave me his honest opinion, I asked another well-traveled friend who said don't bother. Another friend who I consider one of the great minds in golf course architecture and he called it a "Doak 0". Then we had the post-1995 rating thing on the other site and Dismal was something like 50th out of 52. Maybe they are all wrong. Maybe you, Eric and others are 100% right. I'm sure all the recent changes are for the best. Even if it's 50/50 that I'd love it, I don't have the freedom to take that chance. My golfing days for the year are becoming more and more of a precious commodity.

I'm sure most will view this as more Ballyneal vs DR rivalry, but in my mind such rivalry doesn't exist. Sure i roll my eyes at some of the stuff CJ says on GCA, but who doesn't? All in all, he seems like a decent guy. I'm sure folks are tired of hearing about Jim Colton and bn. I wouldnt blame you. I've invited Mac, Eric and even JC Jones out to Ballyneal. Mac and Eric have invited me out to DR. They are different course about 3 1/2 hours apart. And I hope the Doak course is fantastic.

Flame away!"

 I then tried to start this same Case Study thread over there, focusing on the positives and on architecture, but that got quickly pulled as well. I guess the question I have is this: because I am a Ballyneal member, am I not allowed to start an architectural discussion about Dismal River? I understand you can have your doubts, be skeptical -- but I'm ready to move on. If anything I say in this thread is out of line, feel free to call me out on it. Looking back on some of Adam's old links, you can see that I've always been interested in this project (and Erin Hills). I enjoy learning about the process of how things come to be, how key decisions were made (routing trade-offs, etc) and when and why changes were made. I poured over topos of Doak's course and came about 'this close' to proposing a change (before coming to my senses).

 So far there has been a lot of interest on this topic and CJ has graciously chimed in with his thoughts. As someone who was in before CJ, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. What drew you to this course in the middle of nowhere?

 As I told Mac via PM, I'd openly welcome a similar thread on Ballyneal 2.0 or 3.0 or whenever it's heading in the right direction in the same trajectory that DR has been on. That only means good things have happened for the course and the club and we can reflect and document how we got there.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

 I said that "I didn't think Dismal River was a great course" based on information I had gathered from various trusted sources, just like I'd do when searching out information on any course I was thinking about visiting. Don and some others took exception to it and the thread was deleted. Fair enough. I admit I was probably over the line, though Mac said he didn't have a problem with it.

 This is probably violating some sort of 'What happens in Vegas' clause, but Mark Saltzman quotes GCA over there so maybe I'm okay:

"Mac, that sounds like the right mindset. However the rub is very few of us have the budget or time to dedicate to seeing golf courses that you do. Personally, I have to rely on ratings, friends and other sources to figure out what to prioritize for the remaining years I have on this Earth. Might I end up missing out on a course I might otherwise enjoy? Sure, but that's just the risk you take. Sure, preconceived notions might play a role in this, right or wrong. I'm not particularly fond of Jim Engh's work, it just doesn't float my boat.  Still, we took a day to play Sanctuary last year and the course was even worse than we expected, even coming in with an open mind for that style. That day (which came at opportunity cost of 36-45 holes at Ballyneal) further cemented my belief to just focus on stuff I have a high propensity to enjoy.  I'd like to see and experience everything but that's just not realistic. I doubt Tiger regrets not seeing or playing the entire course, he probably just regrets going there in the first place when he could've just played wild horse instead.

As far as DR goes, tiger stated on the other thread that he didn't think Dismal was a great course. You and a couple guys jumped on him. Now it comes out that he based that seeing a few holes, adding more fuel to the fire. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but based on everything I've seen or read, I'd say that "Dismal River is not a great course", with a caveat that i haven't seen any of the holes! That just means my opinion isnt worth much. But I had the opportunity to play the course last year and went through the same exercise of deciding whether to do it or not. I asked a friend for a detailed hole-by-hole and he gave me his honest opinion, I asked another well-traveled friend who said don't bother. Another friend who I consider one of the great minds in golf course architecture and he called it a "Doak 0". Then we had the post-1995 rating thing on the other site and Dismal was something like 50th out of 52. Maybe they are all wrong. Maybe you, Eric and others are 100% right. I'm sure all the recent changes are for the best. Even if it's 50/50 that I'd love it, I don't have the freedom to take that chance. My golfing days for the year are becoming more and more of a precious commodity.

I'm sure most will view this as more Ballyneal vs DR rivalry, but in my mind such rivalry doesn't exist. Sure i roll my eyes at some of the stuff CJ says on GCA, but who doesn't? All in all, he seems like a decent guy. I'm sure folks are tired of hearing about Jim Colton and bn. I wouldnt blame you. I've invited Mac, Eric and even JC Jones out to Ballyneal. Mac and Eric have invited me out to DR. They are different course about 3 1/2 hours apart. And I hope the Doak course is fantastic.

Flame away!"

 I then tried to start this same Case Study thread over there, focusing on the positives and on architecture, but that got quickly pulled as well. I guess the question I have is this: because I am a Ballyneal member, am I not allowed to start an architectural discussion about Dismal River? I understand you can have your doubts, be skeptical -- but I'm ready to move on. If anything I say in this thread is out of line, feel free to call me out on it. Looking back on some of Adam's old links, you can see that I've always been interested in this project (and Erin Hills). I enjoy learning about the process of how things come to be, how key decisions were made (routing trade-offs, etc) and when and why changes were made. I poured over topos of Doak's course and came about 'this close' to proposing a change (before coming to my senses).

 So far there has been a lot of interest on this topic and CJ has graciously chimed in with his thoughts. As someone who was in before CJ, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. What drew you to this course in the middle of nowhere?

 As I told Mac via PM, I'd openly welcome a similar thread on Ballyneal 2.0 or 3.0 or whenever it's heading in the right direction in the same trajectory that DR has been on. That only means good things have happened for the course and the club and we can reflect and document how we got there.

Thank you.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim,
I think DR's strength is in its 'vibe'.   There's just a feeling out there that's tough to describe, but it results in an experience that's greater than the sum of its parts.

I've only seen that 'vibe' at a few other places, and it's something money can't buy.  To me, it can come about only through a tight relationship between members and management/BOD (on the equity side).

[Michael George]

Jim:

I don't have a problem with this thread at all, if the intent is actually trying to learn what makes national, destination clubs better - which is something that I really enjoy reading about also.  However, if your intent is to somehow say that the improved feeling on Dismal River is all marketing, then I think the thread is improper.  Only you would know the answer to that so I think speculation on your intent by anyone else (including me) on this string is silly.  So I hope there is an honest discussion.  I personally enjoyed CJ's response and would agree that the personality of a club is really important.  

I have played great golf courses where the attitude of the club was too snobby for me (where members think they are better than others and I am supposed to be eternally grateful for my 1 round of golf there).  Although I loved the course, I likely would not go back even if invited.  Meanwhile, I have played good golf courses where the attitude of the club was relaxed and you just felt welcome.  I cannot wait to go back to those places.  

That is why I think ratings solely of the golf course itself (and not everything else surrounding the golf) are missing the boat.  Golf is nothing more than a social activity.  To divorce one aspect of that social activity from everything else is not done in anything else but golf.  It is like rating a restaurant just on its food - without considering the service, table, location and ambience.  Each club does not have to be the same for everyone.  However, to only review one aspect of a social activity as many ratings do, I think is wrong.        

I think the problem with the discussion on the other site is that you rendered a useless opinion - which I myself am prone to do so don't take that incorrectly - by rendering an opinion on Dismal River at all.  You can make the statement that people you trust don't like the course - that is fine.  However, if you have never been there, you really cannot render an opinion on the place.

Just my opinion.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill and Grant, thanks for that is what I am trying to get my hands around. i was one of those who said phoey to DR Jack. I would like to hear in detail what was done to significantly change the course and the golfing experience there. Jim and Chris, thank you for starting that process. When a course gets a general reputation as good but nothing special and all the sudden it is special and great. It is usally more than just good maintenance practices. Although that over time can make a huge difference to the golf experience. but as I told a good friend here who owns a Jones Jr course. you can do everything in the world to make the course play well. there is only so much you can do with these holes as they were designed, constructed and routed.

[Chris Johnston]

Jim

I have no problem with the topic, but do find the "I hate it but have never seen it" crowd puzzling.  Like cake, you may not like the one we serve, but it is still a great cake.  You just like Chocolate.  I know I don't.  You have a place you really love.  I have no doubt you will not like Dismal as well.  That doesn't make it bad, or that you may even like it.  You just like chocolate better than Red Velvet.

Tiger has never played Dismal and stopped by long ago.  For me, that's like hating a blind date before you even meet her.  Then, to openly criticise it having never played it is, to me, really rather incredible.  I can't wait for him to come back and hope he does. I'll bet him dinner he has a terrific experience.  Great can be arbitrary, fun isn't.

Jim, you asked:  "I guess the question I have is this: because I am a Ballyneal member, am I not allowed to start an architectural discussion about Dismal River?"  Me? I have absolutely no problem with it and have participated.   But in the initial post, you also asked "What went wrong with the previous iteration(s)"...  I don't mind that question, but shouldn't the same should be open and fully vetted about your club?  Especially so given the timeliness?  We hear "nobody has the full story" but many do...you do.  As the presumptive face of Ballyneal on this site, why not share it like I do?  Why the mystery?  We aren't curing disease here.

Would you welcome, be comfortable, and participate if I (or Mac Plumart) started a thread about past architecture, maintenance and management changes at Ballyneal?  How about I post that people (we'll call them "friends") who say "don't bother" due to slow greens, walking only, the food, or smell of nearby livestock, snakes, rakes, or space aliens in the rough?  I wouldn't, as my or a few other's starting it would just be...well... odd.  I would never think to start such a thread, even if I'm "allowed to".  Even more so since I visited and looked at a few holes, but never actually played Ballyneal.  Maybe I hear good things and bad things...from "friends", but they don't make it into posts.  Most take away the good things and see things for themselves.  

wrt to "rolling the eyes", I have never started a thread about Dismal River.  In fact, I can't recall ever starting a thread about anything.  Where I think I can contribute, I try to do so, and I'm sure all will agree I post in detail, probably too much.  I mostly contribute to threads on Dismal River for I have firsthand knowledge that many appreciate.  I'm sorry you (and more "friends"?) roll your eyes.  That really makes me feel bad, and I'd like to think that isn't your goal.  Other than innuendo, I have never had anyone challenge what I have said based upon facts or what we do and why we do it.  Not once.  We are quite open in this respect.

I'm always happy to talk about Dismal River here, as long as everyone is respectful, including on this thread.  

[Jim Colton]

Michael,

  I think there a lot of lessons to be learned from a case study like this. And especially with a lot of courses struggling, they could be helpful in avoiding the same sort of pitfalls. Ideally, I'd like to put together a timeline showing the key decisions and changes that have been made along the way. It will take some time to put those pieces together, but I think it builds an interesting history on how we got from A to B. Obviously the course changes are a big part of it and something I want to spent a lot of detail on. The maintenance seems to be a big part of it -- it sounds like there were issues with the initial irrigation systems (if you google 'Dismal River Golf Club' and 'Milroy Golf Systems', you'll find a lawsuit outlining some of the details). They've only recently dialed it in and the course has improved dramatically because of it. I think they've migrated their focus from difficult to fun, which seems to be a step in the right direction. And the club initially when for top shelf amentities (bowling alley, landing strip, etc) and has since dialed that down. All of these are key decisions that have evolved over time. I think it's fair to try to document when went right, what went wrong, etc without it devolving into something else.

  One question, I'm trying to put the pieces together and I notice a mention of 'Dick Burtness' as one of the principals. From Forrest Richardson in 2005: "Dick Burtness, the developer, is a great and passionate guy. He loves great golf and I recall when he had a site in Colorado that he always wanted to do something in the sandhills, even though his "job" at the time was getting the Colorado resort underway. Colorado never panned out and he has been working on the Dismal River project for several years. Congrats!" And this link (http://www.deere.com/en_US/jdc/product_financing/golf_turf/featured_courses_ne.html) and that lawsuit mention Burtness as well. Is he separate from Tim Kratz's ownership group? This image is from Jack's website from the grand opening:


with the caption: Jack presents the signed ceremonial driver to managing partners left to right, Ty Notestine, Tim Kratz, Tony Pasquini, Steve Ismert, Jack Nicklaus, Bill Martin and Timber Notestine at the Dismal River Grand Opening (Photo series by Jim Mandeville.)

[David Kelly]

That is why I think ratings solely of the golf course itself (and not everything else surrounding the golf) are missing the boat.  Golf is nothing more than a social activity.

This isn't the Platinum Club of America, this site is about golf course architecture.  Regardless of whether you play a course in the company of a bunch of dicks or with the greatest guys in the world it doesn't change the golf course itself.

[Jim Colton]

Jim

I have no problem with the topic, but do find the "I hate it but have never seen it" crowd puzzling.  Like cake, you may not like the one we serve, but it is still a great cake.  You just like Chocolate.  I know I don't.  You have a place you really love.  I have no doubt you will not like Dismal as well.  That doesn't make it bad, or that you may even like it.  You just like chocolate better than Red Velvet.

Tiger has never played Dismal and stopped by long ago.  For me, that's like hating a blind date before you even meet her.  Then, to openly criticise it having never played it is, to me, really rather incredible.  I can't wait for him to come back and hope he does. I'll bet him dinner he has a terrific experience.  Great can be arbitrary, fun isn't.

Jim, you asked:  "I guess the question I have is this: because I am a Ballyneal member, am I not allowed to start an architectural discussion about Dismal River?"  Me? I have absolutely no problem with it and have participated.   But in the initial post, you also asked "What went wrong with the previous iteration(s)"...  I don't mind that question, but shouldn't the same should be open and fully vetted about your club?  Especially so given the timeliness?  We hear "nobody has the full story" but many do...you do.  As the presumptive face of Ballyneal on this site, why not share it like I do?  Why the mystery?  We aren't curing disease here.

Would you welcome, be comfortable, and participate if I (or Mac Plumart) started a thread about past architecture, maintenance and management changes at Ballyneal?  How about I post that people (we'll call them "friends") who say "don't bother" due to slow greens, walking only, the food, or smell of nearby livestock, snakes, rakes, or space aliens in the rough?  I wouldn't, as my or a few other's starting it would just be...well... odd.  I would never think to start such a thread, even if I'm "allowed to".  Even more so since I visited and looked at a few holes, but never actually played Ballyneal.  Maybe I hear good things and bad things...from "friends", but they don't make it into posts.  Most take away the good things and see things for themselves.  

wrt to "rolling the eyes", I have never started a thread about Dismal River.  In fact, I can't recall ever starting a thread about anything.  Where I think I can contribute, I try to do so, and I'm sure all will agree I post in detail, probably too much.  I mostly contribute to threads on Dismal River for I have firsthand knowledge that many appreciate.  I'm sorry you (and more "friends"?) roll your eyes.  That really makes me feel bad, and I'd like to think that isn't your goal.  Other than innuendo, I have never had anyone challenge what I have said based upon facts or what we do and why we do it.  Not once.  We are quite open in this respect.

I'm always happy to talk about Dismal River here, as long as everyone is respectful, including on this thread.  

Chris,

 For the record, I never said I hate it. I just said based on everything I had seen or heard, I didn't think it could be classified as 'great'. I don't think that is an outlandish statement, or is a minority opinion. I could list about 17,900 courses that I don't think are great, even though I haven't seen 17,500 of them.

 I don't have the full story on Ballyneal. I wish I did. As I JUST said, I'm happy to do the same sort of case study on Ballyneal when it's heading on the same path to success and trajectory that DR has been on. That would be a great thing to dissect and learn from.

 I'm happy to stop this thread if you don't want me to continue talking about the missteps that were made by previous iterations, how you learned from them and turned into the success story that it is today. I can't see what the harm is in that for you or your club.

  Getting back to architecture:

  Looking at the aerials, I noticed the 6th (?) hole has an alternate fairway that wasn't grassed or was just growing in on the earlier shots. What's the story there? Is this fairway today? How does it come into play?

[Ben Sims]

Jim,

I am probably one of the friends you mentioned in your previous post.  I remember giving you as detailed an analysis as I possibly could muster regarding what I saw as weaknesses in routing and in shaping at DR #1.  But I also tailored my analysis to you based on our round together at Sanctuary and your concept of "opportunity cost golf."  I also tailored my analysis knowing full well where you were a member.  That was probably shallow of me, and if it misled you to think I thought DR wasn't any good, I apologize.  Truthfully, Dismal River is the best course I've played in the state of Nebraska.  That said, the only other course is Bayside, so my opinion in that regard shouldn't mean all that much.  

I find that as I get deeper into golf, I am more apt to render a more tempered opinion than I was three years ago when I joined this site.  I have used some very strong language towards courses I've only seen once, or to places I haven't even been!  The more I learn about what it takes to get a golf course in the ground, and the careers that depend on that, the less likely I am to flame away on a golf course for shortcomings.  Every course has shortcomings!  That doesn't mean analysis isn't needed.  Objective and honest assessment without spear throwing (which we so often devolve into around here) is the order of the day.  

My opinion of Dismal River is rooted in a belief that minimalism (starting to hate that term) isn't just about finding golf holes.  It's about relationships with nature.  I think that DR #1 tried too hard to be minimalist, without doing the necessary things to interact with nature.  There are some that love the rollocking over, around, up and down craziness that DR #1 provides.  A lot of guys love the big bowls to hit into on the greens and aggressive use of contour without any tempering.  It is a severe site, no doubt.  So severe in fact, that there are only two options in many places that the course was routed.  Either go between the dunes, or try and conquer them.  Holes like 5 and 6 tried to tackle severe dunes, and are a bit too crazy for my taste.  Holes like 11 and 18 had no choice but to route between huge landforms.  My understanding is that the land at DR #1 is much more severe than that 8 miles downriver at SH.  And the interaction with the landforms (or melting as some have called it) that I love so much at Ballyneal is very tough with dunes as large as you find at DR #1.

None of this does any favors in describing the changes at DR however.  There are some key factors that have helped the club immensely in the past two years.  1) There has been softening of some holes that has improved playbility from a severity standpoint 2) Jagger Mandrel has been instrumental in controlling the rough/native areas into a much more forgiving meld of grasses 3) A third and much more dynamic owner has attracted a younger, vocal and excited membership. 4) There has been much hoopla and optimism over a second and highly differentiated course.  None of these aspects can be taken singularly, they have all had an impact on the club.

To end, I don't think that anything revolutionary happened at Dismal River.  My opinion that the golf course--though different--isn't so different from the original as to warrant critical acclaim over it's original self.  The changes have made the course better no doubt, but probably not to the extent that we have seen popular opinion change on DR.  No, positive energy, a willingness to make it better, and a more relaxed atmosphere and feel have been DR's biggest attributes of late.  Dismal River is one of the places that shows that long term success hinges on people just as much as having a great golf course.  There's power and wisdom in being just fine and dandy with the quality of their 201.  

[Sam Morrow]

I've not been to Dismal, I hope to make it out there in June, maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, there is always next year. I have friends on both sides of this argument, maybe Dismal River is the knew Merion or Cobbs Creek on GCA. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it's not. All I can say is that something must be going right as I'm pretty sure that until a few years ago I'd never heard of Dismal River.

[Chris Johnston]

Bill and Grant, thanks for that is what I am trying to get my hands around. i was one of those who said phoey to DR Jack. I would like to hear in detail what was done to significantly change the course and the golfing experience there. Jim and Chris, thank you for starting that process. When a course gets a general reputation as good but nothing special and all the sudden it is special and great. It is usally more than just good maintenance practices. Although that over time can make a huge difference to the golf experience. but as I told a good friend here who owns a Jones Jr course. you can do everything in the world to make the course play well. there is only so much you can do with these holes as they were designed, constructed and routed.

Tiger, the routing is quite good, edgy and certainly different, but quite good if you like unique.

Here is an example that I think will help.  Take your favorite course in the world (Pacific Dunes) over irrigate (by not calibrating from grow in) the second cut of rough to an unplayable level.  Really unplayable...to the point you can't find your ball.  Think it would still be your favorite course.  Bet not.  Try that at Pine Valley or Sand Hills.

Take for example, Ballyneal's wonderful greens.  Keep the current contours, but add a fast bentgrass rather than the slower fescue.  Make em roll at 10.5.  Still having fun?  Bet not.  Try that at any of the Bandon courses.

Early on, Jack probably over contoured the greens given the turf selected.  The most radical ones were softened - none are easy but they are far more fun.  I think more than 10 greens were redone to accommodate speed.  We like them faster up here but another alternative would have been seed them to fescue.  Either would have been a better match.  Part of a great course is all parts fitting together.  

Nothing to do with the routing.  Big impacts.  The routing is very good, the conditions just didn't fit the routing.  That "fix" is far more common than most would imagine.

It's funny, I took alot of crap spending hours learning, studying, and understanding the Nicklaus course after we bought the club.  Many on my team thought I should be in the office, rather than the course.  Without the course dialed in, we didn't need a team.

[John Kavanaugh]

Trying to discuss Dismal River with Jim is like trying to argue abortion rights with a mother who just lost her child to cancer.

[Jud_T]

This is certainly a worthwhile discussion IMO.  Clearly the course was panned here early on, probably to an extreme (I have yet to make it to Dismal so I have no dog in this hunt).  Since Chris has taken over, a number of GCA guys have joined, changes have been made to the course and conditioning and Tom's been signed up to do course #2, the pendulum's swung the other way, again perhaps to an extreme.  Getting beyond the hype, both positive and negative, to constructively discuss what didn't work and what is working is of interest to a broad range of readers.

[Kalen Braley]

As one who has been around long enough to see all the Dismal threads from start till now,  DR seems to be one of those rare turn-arounds where the tree house went from mostly panning it, to mostly liking/approving of it.  I can hardly think of another example on this site where this has happened.

Overall, its hard to put my finger on just one thing, but my perception is...the main difference has been management. Whether, you like his style or not, I don't think anyone can question CJ's genuine enthusiasm for the place, even if its over the top to some. I know its just words on a computer screen, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that he walks the walk at DR and its not just sales hype.

And I'm guessing its managements engagement in wanting to make the place fun that has led to the softening of the course, having fun events, letting guys let thier hair down, getting rid of the unwanted extras and thier costs, and otherwise putting into motion the best processes to achieve the goal of "customer satisfaction" 1st and foremost.

As was hinted at in an earlier post...I'd rather play a good to great course again and again that made me feel at home, over a world beater course where I was made to feel like an outsider.  DR may not be a world beater, but it sure looks damn good in the pictures I've seen, and I'm very much looking forward to taking a look this summer to form a more informed opinion!! 

[Chris Johnston]

This is certainly a worthwhile discussion IMO.  Clearly the course was panned here early on, probably to an extreme (I have yet to make it to Dismal so I have no dog in this hunt).  Since Chris has taken over, a number of GCA guys have joined, changes have been made to the course and conditioning and Tom's been signed up to do course #2, the pendulum's swung the other way, again perhaps to an extreme.  Getting beyond the hype, both positive and negative, to constructively discuss what didn't work and what is working is of interest to a broad range of readers.

Jud

I agree.

Fun is kind of like pornography, I can't really define it but know it when I see it.  For me, fun is never extreme.  Ugly ducklings that turn into beautiful swans are always a good story.

[John Kavanaugh]

The Nicklaus course was simply too far ahead of its time.  The only thing that has changed is perception.  Critics are taught what is great by example, they missed this one on the first time around.  It happens.

I read every negative word ever written about the place and joined after playing 6 holes as darkness appeared.  I love the architecture of the course and shudder every time Chris talks about making changes.  It gets lonely out there, I get it.

I do take great comfort in the fact that I know he will keep his hands off of the Doak course, but, owners will be owners.

[Michael George]

Jim:

I agree that there is a lot of merit to a review of how national, destination clubs have improved.  I think it is especially worthwhile with many clubs struggling.  I am a firm believer in not re-inventing the wheel.  I am sure that there are things that all of the clubs in the sandhills can learn from each other.  That is why I started my post by defending your thread and is why I have enjoyed the responses.

For the record, I have never been to anyplace in the Sandhills, including Sand Hills, The Prairie Club, Dismal River, Wild Horse or Ballyneal.  I hope to experience each of them at some time.  My guess is that each of these places are great in their own ways, but I really enjoy different experiences.  Bandon is my favorite place on earth and Pacific Dunes is my favorite course that I have ever played, but I still loved Muirfield Village --- and they are about as polar opposite of golf experiences as things come.  

[DMoriarty]

Mr. Johnston,

I've no affiliation with either Ballyneal or Dismal.  Nor am I likely to ever have any such affiliation in the future.  I've heard you are a great guy, so I'll be straight with you.  I find the endless hyping to be really off-putting, especially when you combine it with the indirect and direct shots at Ballyneal, like in your post immediately above.

You ask, rhetorically, what if you posted "that people (we'll call them "friends") who say 'don't bother' due to slow greens, walking only, the food, or smell of nearby livestock, snakes, rakes, or space aliens in the rough?"  I wouldn't, as my or a few other's starting it would just be...well... odd."  Well you just did post it, for goodness sakes!  And you have done it before in this thread and others.  We are not fools here.  We get your drift when you tell us repeatedly that you don't tell your guests they need to walk, unlike other places.  

Is this really what you mean when you call for respectful discussion?  

I also think it is out-of-line for you and Don (for whom I have tremendous respec) to question Jim Colton's motives, and to belittle his comments and questions as sour grapes in some made up Ballyneal v. Dismal battle. I can assure you that others share his viewpoint on this one whether or not they are affiliated with Ballyneal.

[Sven Nilsen]

Trying to discuss Dismal River with Jim is like trying to argue abortion rights with a mother who just lost her child to cancer.

John:

Your class shines through.  Keep it up.

Sven

[Jim Colton]

David,

 I don't have a problem with them questioning my motives. In fact, I don't blame them for doing so. I'm trying hard to keep this on the high road, so I'd ask that we just table that one or take it another thread or PM. Otherwise this is going to turn into more DR vs. BN crap that everybody is already sick and tired of. I've already had private conversations w/ Mac & CJ, they seem pretty cool with where I'm going here and I'm trying to advance the discussion.

[Richard Choi]

With real in-depth discussion about golf course architecture being far and few in between, I think this is a very interesting discussion that Jim has started. I don't think it is fair to denigrate it just because you have questions about his motives. The discussion should stand or fall based on its content.

I have played both Ballyneal and Dismal River and the thing I LOVE about both is how welcome you feel when you are there. Even if you are nothing but an interloper, both of these clubs treat you like a member for the day (a marketing line repeated often and seldom followed through). For that reason alone, I would be ecstatic to visit either of these clubs again in the future.

The land surrounding Dismal River is pretty much identical to Sand Hills. As such, it is pretty hard to build a bad course there. While Dismal River may not be the pinnacle that Sand Hills is, you do get very similar experience which already puts it above 90% of the courses out there, in my opinion. The fact that it was so panned after its immediate opening, I find it fascinating and would love to learn more about it and dissect it. We would learn a great deal about architecture and golf course maintenance from such discussion.

And I also disagree with David. I find CJ's cheery enthusiasm for his course, quite intoxicating. He is genuinely proud of his course and I love that his not afraid to show it. I do not agree that he has been passive/aggressive about other courses surrounding the area. I truly believe that he knows that more courses around that area succeed, better it is for his course in the long run.

I do hope those who are very familiar with the changes will chime in and let us learn more about what led to the true "tipping point" regarding Dismal River.

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