[Ulrich Mayring]

Garland, I doubt that the "Tee it Forward" initiative is talking about the situation you are envisioning. 90% of all golfers cannot play to that level. For what it's worth, the Tee it Forward chart of selecting your tee based on your drive length starts at 100 yards!

Ulrich

[Garland Bayley]

Ulrich,

Maybe I didn't understand your post. I assumed that n * whack as far as you can means hit it as far as you can n times.

The PGA recommends that Kalen play under 6000 yards, but yet he enjoys playing over 6500 yards. Playing at the longer distance means n is 1 on a few holes.

I didn't understand your second post about playing up to level at all.

[David Harshbarger]

Often I play alone, or in a pick up group, and no one is competing. Playing to make it around in the least strokes makes a fine objective.  Advise from the powers-that-be to do so from an appropriate set of tees is welcome.

I don't see showing up at a course and challenging some stranger to play odds and evens as an option.

[Tom Yost]

Garland,

98% of American golfers play stroke play.  To disparage the Tee It Forward initiative because it doesn't promote match play is misguided.

Source please.

100% made up.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Garland,

you understood my post correctly. Also, I am not criticising anyone for playing longer tees if he enjoys the whacking. I was just saying that I personally find that comparatively boring. Like a pitch & putt, which I like to play occasionally - it's fun and I can play with my wife and all. But for a regular home course experience it would not be varied enough - too many wedges, no driver etc.

So for me playing back tees and hitting the same club (the whacker - in my case a 5 wood) on 12 holes for my second shot is just as boring in match play as it is in stroke play or, for that matter, in a round where I keep no score whatsoever.

The other thing with match play is that you often get to play only 15 or 16 holes. So for the last two or three holes you tend to play in - and want to have some fun in that as well. You better be on the right tee then.

That being said, I prefer courses with only two sets of tees, that renders the entire issue moot

Ulrich

[Garland Bayley]

Often I play alone, or in a pick up group, and no one is competing. Playing to make it around in the least strokes makes a fine objective.  Advise from the powers-that-be to do so from an appropriate set of tees is welcome.

I don't see showing up at a course and challenging some stranger to play odds and evens as an option.

If you are going back to the same course multiple times, and picking up a group, then why not do it in an environment that would facilitate playing match play with other fairly regulars at the course? What I am suggesting is that PGA personnel would do the game more good if they got to know their regular players and found a way for them to Play It Hole-by-hole. To a certain extent, at private clubs I believe this is done some. My club has fairly regularly put out announcements that they would facilitate getting members (especially new ones) into suitable games. I'm sorry if you PGA pros out there think I am relegating you to "cruise director" status, but I think it will help the game more than telling Kalen he should be playing from less than 6000 yards.

[Garland Bayley]

I have to wonder if you people that have been supporting Tee It Forward, actually have taken the time to see what they are saying.

They give a table saying if you drive 225 yards you should play between 5800 and 6000 yards. I suppose that means 6000 yards for par 72, and 5800 yards for par 70.

So now we have a hypothetical 6000 yard par 72 course for Kalen to play that has par 3s of length 135, 145, 155, and 165. The par 5s are 460, 475, 490, and 505 (Kalen is salivating over that. He has never seen such short par 5s). That leaves the average par 4 at 345 yards. 345 - 225 is an average of a 120 yard approach. On average you are hitting pitching wedge approaches to the par 4s. They didn't take the 5 wood out of your hands, they took the 5 iron out of your hands. It's not boring because it's almost all driver 5 wood. It's boring because it's all driver wedge.

The explicitly say they want you to play the same clubs as tour pros play, so welcome to bomb and gouge my friends!

[A.G._Crockett]

Garland,
My suggestion is don't tee it forward.  It seems to make you very unhappy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A.G.

How old are you ?

I understand the "wearing out" of fairway woods, but that would seem to be a separate issue, confined to the loss of distance factor.

Pete,        ?

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I'm starting to genuinely wonder if you have a man crush on me or something.  All this attention is making me blush! 

As for tees and thier distance, I think you are forgetting that distance isn't the only thing that adds "toughness" to a course.  I can play a course like Indian Canyon, which is short at 6100 yards and get my butt handed to me.  Or I can play other courses in the Spokane area that are 300-400 yards longer, of which I regularly score 4-5 shots better on.

At the end of the day, i'm more than willing to play where my partners are playing than caring about where I play from.  I'm not a pro, I'll never make a living off golf, its just a game, and I'm just out there to enjoy the outdoors and the game .  I keep up with the group in front, so that's the only thing I concern myself with when I play from further back tees.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I'm starting to genuinely wonder if you have a man crush on me or something.  All this attention is making me blush! 

...

Nah! It just enables me to not talk about me and my game all the time.

[Jordan Caron]

Garland,

I do agree a lot with what your saying. When you mention that golfers play hole by hole, are you saying that golfers should stop worrying about score and "par" and just play the course?

The other thing that stands out to me is the male ego and value. From my experience many male green fees players think they're better than they are and don't want to play off shorter tees. They also want to get as much as they can out of their green fee so that means playing longer tees.

Interestingly enough at my home course we've added a little over a hundred yards to the course (about as much we can given the size of the property) and put in new back tees. Of the hundred yards the majority was added on two holes which make a significant difference.

So with the back tees (gold) the course plays about 130 yards longer from those tees than the next ones (blue) forward. Now during day to day setup the blues actually play close to 200 yards shorter. It's amazing to see how many good players still play off the shorter blue tees. Since our course is 6174 from the backs, anybody under a 10 should be playing the back's but that's not the case.

These players all want to score better despite playing match play and choose not to step back to gold tees even though they can easily handle the length of the course. What am I getting at with all this? It's very interesting and I really don't know but I find it fascinating that many of these players who called our course too short never play the back tees now that the option is available!

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.

How old are you ?

I understand the "wearing out" of fairway woods, but that would seem to be a separate issue, confined to the loss of distance factor.

Pete,        ?

Pat,
I turn 60 in July.  I'm still fit and fortunate with my health, but not as long as I once was, and I was never above average in length for a single digit golfer.

[Greg Tallman]

Playing a more forward tee should be about maintaining the integrity of the design.

Just played 5 days straight with one of the greatest gentlemen on the planet who simply does not play the way he used to. At age 73 it is now about trying to play from a tee where the strategy still challenges him as it once did from the tee and setting up approaches that are doable albeit with longer clubs than before. We played a mix of 3 different tees with me yelling at him on occasion when he, by habit, went to a specific tee.

I simply do not see how anyone can find fault with that.

Now if you argue that a 28 year old who can hit the ball 300 yards but at the end of the day still cards 90+ needs to play from the 6300 yard tees then I say no way. Should be about how the golfer can set themselves up from a well hit tee shot. 

This is one reason I love the no tee marker concept employed at some private clubs. Play each hole from where you are comfortable.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

A.G.

I think there is a point where the aging process erodes your distance to the degree that you can no longer handle tees that you've played from for decades.

But, I think that's a different aspect of the "play it forward" philosophy.

"Father Time" usually has a gradual influence to the point of recognition.

It seems to me, that the newest "push" to the forward tees is rather indiscriminate, almost implying a universal surrender on the part of golfers, irrespective of their ability today, versus say, five years ago.

Golfers should engage in introspection and as olde Shakey said, be true to themselves.

But, surrendering to forward tees, just to diminish the challenge sounds counter to the inherent challenge presented by the game.

[Joe Leenheer]

A.G.

But, surrendering to forward tees, just to diminish the challenge sounds counter to the inherent challenge presented by the game.

This sounds like you believe that distance measures difficulty?

[Garland Bayley]

...
It seems to me, that the newest "push" to the forward tees is rather indiscriminate, almost implying a universal surrender on the part of golfers, irrespective of their ability today, versus say, five years ago.
...

I think that's nicely put Patrick. "indiscriminate", "universal surrender".

What is the PGA saying? We can't teach you guys well enough so you might as well move forward? You high handicappers steadfastly refuse to take lessons from us, so we insist you move forward?

My primary point is that there is more than one way to enjoy the game. Why are they pushing one? How is it better than the game Kalen and I play in our matches for example? I am suggesting that if they are going to push one, then they chose the wrong one.

For that matter, I think the spectators to our matches enjoyed them much more watching us deal with length than they would have watching us wedge into every hole.

Play it hole-by-hole,

Garland

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

As a universal, I think length does equate with difficulty

[Garland Bayley]

Joe,

As a universal, I think length does equate with difficulty

According to the USGA it is significanlty the primary factor in determining course and slope rating.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat,
I turn 60 in July.  I'm still fit and fortunate with my health, but not as long as I once was, and I was never above average in length for a single digit golfer.

What's up with that A.G.? I was significantly longer in my 61st year than I was in my 60th year. Maybe you need to see Bob Toski about maintaining distance with age.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Garland,

Not sure its indiscriminate.  The "Tee it Forward" chart had course length suggestions for every 25 yards of length of average tee shot from 125 yards up to Tour Pro.  Not about universally shortening, just shortening to some reasonable length based on individual golf swings.

I don't see anything wrong with it.  After all, for years we tended to lengthen courses overall, based solely on the distance of tour pros or the top 0.01%, while most golfers picked up very little distance.  So, in a way, this is correcting recent mistakes rather than a sign of anyone giving up on difficulty.  And, the individual courses or players are responsible for setting each hole, so again, not totally discriminate.

For that matter, for someone who recently chastised my posts as logic adjacent, I have to comment that I see no real logical correlation between length and the tendency towards stroke over match play.  In either case, a shorter course would theoretically just remove the equivalent of the mid shot on par 5 holes, and make more shots of each competitor whether match or stroke, tend to mean more as either a tee shot or approach shot.

Just MHO.

[William_G]

I thought Tee It Forward was more about people playing the right tees so they can get around the course quicker.

+1

[Garland Bayley]

I thought Tee It Forward was more about people playing the right tees so they can get around the course quicker.

+1

Leave it to a Duck to not understand.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Not sure its indiscriminate. ...

It makes "no careful distinctions or choices" between types of players and applies the same solution to all.
Capice?

[Garland Bayley]

... just shortening to some reasonable length based on individual golf swings.

...

As my analysis above pointed out, this would lead to wedging in to most holes. Is that what you think golf should be? Driver - wedge?

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