Pebble Beach - Forest Course

[Forrest Richardson]

The soils problem is minor. A project of such status and budget will simply be plated with pure sand or a reasonable mixture. Viola! No more clay.

I am glad to have this post. It's been quite a while since hearing anything about this project and it would be great to hear from anyone in the know.

I also wonder what the feeling was when Mr. Jones was invited to create Spyglass? Wasn't he "The Establishment" at the time and therefore a questionable choice among the purists?

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- The lore on RTJ is that he practically begged for the commision. With a total project cost of under 700k he must've really loved the site.

Recent changes to the 16th hole (Black Dog) further brings into question some of the alterations made at all of the companies courses.

[Joel_Stewart]

Recent changes to the 16th hole (Black Dog) further brings into question some of the alterations made at all of the companies courses.

Agree that Black Dog is just horrible now.

Also agree that is a shame Fazio is doing the course.  I have heard it going to be walking only which may be from the influence of Bandon Dunes.

I know a person who is one of the partners at Pebble and I have asked him to ask around to see if any of the other partners would be willing to replace Fazio.  He doesn't want to get involved in such politics but I get the impression that they are not expecting the course to be over the top great.  They are expecting it to generate huge amounts of money.  The partnership is also counting the days until the lease runs out at Spyglass and they take full control of the tee times and revenue.  I believe this is in 2006.

[Eric Johnson]

Joel, If I recall the agreement runs out in 2016.

Adam, What are the new changes to Spy #16?

Before leaving the peninsula in 2000, I saw 3-4 routings for the Forest course.  The only road that was likely to be removed was Drake.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Ej- Besides the tree at the inside leg dying, they have built a bunker short and right of the green. The area where the hazard use to come into play.

Joel-EJ is right it is 2016. The deal was for fifty years, in 1966.

I know for a fact that the decision to make it an all walking course was a result of the restrictions the CCC placed on the site. Mr. Fazio wasn't able to fit a cart path in. and keep to those restrictions, ergo the decision to make it all walking.

I have tried to drive around the site, but it litterally is so full of trees and underbrush, that is dififcult. Losing Drake and re-routing the road would be ideal, as I understand it, because it will allow for the dual use of pro-shop, eatery(?) for both courses, The Forest and Spy.

The comment that the course will make them alot of Bling, seems off-focus and highly unlikely. With all the time that has past perhaps Mr. Fazio will surprise us all and concentrate on a golf course for 'real' golfers, since it will be walking, most of the fu-fu set will opt not to play the Forest course, so why design for them?

[Eric Johnson]

Adam,
That pine at the dogleg has been dying since 1995!

Not surprised about the bunker on the right.  That idea was kicked around during the drainage upgrade project in 1996.

[Bob_Huntley]

Joel,

It is 2016 that Spyglass goes back to the Corporation. Probably one of the best membership deals ever offered.

The Forest course will produce big bucks for the PBC, because you will not be able to play PB without having to fork out money to play the new course.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob- What kind of marketing strategy do you call that? Golf Ballsy?

I hope an attitude such as this, will be the straw that breaks the camels back !  I despise being manipulated and would rather wait for a policy like that to expire naturally.

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam,

As Edward Heath, a British Prime Minister, once remarked upon Tiny Rowland and his Lonrho Company, it represents the unacceptable face of capitalism. Don't hold your breath thinking that this may change.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The Forest course will produce big bucks for the PBC, because you will not be able to play PB without having to fork out money to play the new course.

I find this a little hard to believe.  How can they think people will buy that?  Perhaps 50% or more of people who currently play PB or will want to play just the Forest course will probably not fork over that much extra dough.

By the time the Forest course is built, PB will probably be at least $500-$600 ($380 minimum, now) by then, and the new course will probably be at least $300-$400 (Spyglass is $265 minimum now), so to play 2 courses, perhaps a minimum of $800-$1000 minimum will be required?  That will scare MANY people away.  

And how can they force walking on all of the cartballers who currently haunt Pebble?  Considering the high number of people who have the gall to actually ride "perhaps the greatest walk on Earth" currently, who thinks they'll walk at an inland course?

Absurdity.  We'll see how that works out.

Oh, and Bob, what happens to all of the current members of Spyglass in 2016?

[A_Clay_Man]

The soils problem is minor. A project of such status and budget will simply be plated with pure sand or a reasonable mixture. Viola! No more clay.

The estimate made to MPCC for that much sand to platz was 7 million dollars. Not exactly minor

[Forrest Richardson]

100 acres of pure sand at 1-foot depth would be about $3.5 million if one used USGA sand delivered 10-20 miles away. But, I hardly think anyone would consider USGA sand. Rather, any coarse sand which is clean would do fine. I'd estimate about $15 per cubic yard, hence:

43,560 s.f. x 100 acres / 27 = 161,333 c.y. x $15 = $2.4 million

If blended with on-site soils then less sand might be used and perhsps a savings.

But...having calculated all this I also recall paying $14 for a glass of red shiraz at the Pebble bar...so perhaps my optimism is overactive.

[A_Clay_Man]

FR- Is that just the cost of the sand? How about the spreading?

[Forrest Richardson]

The spreading cost would be in liew of any topsoil mamagement, a typical cost of about $2 per cubic yard, or let's say $300,000 for a course with 100 acres of turf coverage.

But, you would also not have rock picking or other screening costs. The Outlaw Course at Desert Mountain plated the entire course with 8-inches of pure sand. It was trucked some 40 miles at a cost, inclusive of delivery, of about $10 per cubic yard.

The figures I gave above were for 12-inches...8-inches would be fine if I were in charge. This would save 1/3 of the costs I estimated.

[RT]

I sure would hope and think along with plating the course with an appropriate golf course quality sand, there will be an extensive underground drainage system to take all that water sitting on top of the poor draining/impermeable (located beyond the depth of those lovely deep core tynes) clay layer that has efficiently infiltrated the plated sand layer. Also intercept that pesky water flowing from higher side slopes (both above, and more importantly belowground) towards the golf course (a la Spyglass...)

I mean, where is that water going to go, after all, in that particular microclimate?

[Forrest Richardson]

Downhill.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Scott,
The carts at Pebble stem from the fact that are no pull carts if you walk. The average player at Pebble would not be able to carry their bag, thus creating a tough decision between a caddie or the "included" cart.

Clearly they have some revenue structure that works for them, but we have few clients who want to play Spanish Bay (other than those first time visitors). Therefore, I cannot understand the logic of continuing with Fazio if the partners are not expecting greatness. Spanish Bay is not a money maker, but perhaps they have a different outlook for the Forest course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I wonder if the Forest Course is going to have the same type of floated fairways of sand like Strantz is using at MPCC?

[Bob_Huntley]

Forrest,

Your estimates arre spot on. The cost of sand-capping our new course will be about $2.7 mill.

Shivas and Scott,

I didn't say, or at least I don't think I did, that the company has a stated policy making it mandatory to play the Forest to be able to play PB. It was my own take on the rapaciousness of the powers that be. We all know that the Links Trust did something similar with TOC.

Scott,

In 2016 the Spyglass Hill membership will cease to exist. The course will then belong to the Pebble Beach Company.

[Brian Phillips]

Bob,

Of course he is spot on he is a Golf Course Architect..its his job to know that...
 

Brian