Pebble Beach - Forest Course

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'm a little shocked I haven't seen anything on this site mentioning it, but Pebble Beach has a fifth course in the works that could break ground in 2002 or 2003, the Forest Course, to be designed by... hold your breath...Tom Fazio.

I ran into the story here while searching for info on the infamous Preserve:
http://www.golfcalifornia.com/pebble5.htm

It has been in the works for 12 years (CA permitting, etc.) and will be part of the AT&T Pro-Am rotation (P.H., S.H., and Forest will alternate 2 every 3 years).

The site is near the front nine of Cypress and back nine of Spyglass.

With all of the talk of The Preserve being "wasted" by Fazio, this site seems primed for another possible waste of great land.  I'm a little surprised they didn't ask Nicklaus, given he did the new #5 at Pebble and the love he has for the courses there.  For this reason (he wouldn't want to screw it up), Nicklaus would take extra special care in the design, had he got it, and probably would end up better than a Fazio mail-in.

Of course, many here, including myself, would have other preferences for the architect of this prime real estate.

Any other insight on this course from the NoCal gang or anyone else?  How about Todd Eckenrode?

[BillV]

I have no comment.

[SPDB]

Is it any wonder that I have a hard time believing many on this site who claim they are objective about courses, and draw no conclusions on a course - site unseen?

Notwithstanding the prevailing view in this DG about Tom Fazio, I can certainly see why they would want him to design a course - he is a preeminent golf course designer and recognized as such, year in and year out.

[SPDB]

premature posting:

what's more impressive is that the Pebble Beach Company chose Fazio, even though Palmer (who, of course, has his own shop), is part of the management team.

But I say all of this by way of giving the guy a chance. Let's not cast verdicts on a course that is not yet finished. This goes so much further in the category of egregiousness than the whole "Bridge - Rees Jones" fiasco, where people were drawing conclusions on the quality of that track (no pun intended) based on the viewing of 3 pictures.

I personally am looking forward to this.

[A_Clay_Man]

Without Knowing the design intent, for sure, I bet Tom Fazio will make the perfect resort course....ok enough pc. I have mentioned this course on previous threads. I shared with the forum the late breaking news(2 yrs.) of it being a walking only course(no paths)  Mr. Spangler approved it because the designer was having trouble fitting the path in and keeping within the enviornmental reg's.
Also, the tentative plan was to share the pro-shop@spy that exists now. Get rid of the road and head towards the equestrian center. Not all that great of a site which is heavily forrested. The soil is aslo not that great with a ton of clay per sq/?

The real interesting question is if the design will be adaptable to the inevitably changing landscape of the Del Monte Forest.

And I like to wonder if they had only moved the road for Pete Dye when he pitched Spanish bay... Oh what would've been

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPBD,

Do you mean to imply that some on this site, Hang em first, and then have a trial ?

What prudent person would do that ?

You want everyone to see and play the course before evaluating it, isn't that a little radical for some on this site ?

                     

[John Bernhardt]

I am glad Palmer or jack was not chosen. While i am not a big fazio man. he does to great work and will not build a monstosity like Jack or AP could.

[Jeff_Stettner]

SPBD:
Fazio was chosen to design the course long before Palmer and Co. took over control of Pebble Beach. As Scott wrote, the course has been in the works for over 12 years. When Fazio was selected, he was not the modern icon he is today, good or bad.

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott:

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your post.  Most people who follow golf architecture projects have been aware of this potential project for years.  The news that Tom Fazio has been selected to design the course is quite old.  We've also long been aware of the general location of where the course might be built.

Until there is a meaningful update on what we've known for years, there isn't much to discuss.  Don't you think?

Beyond that, I'm not sure what purpose is served by projecting the results of Tom Fazio's work as a "mail in".  Have you seen the routing plan?  Can you tell us anything about the design of different holes?  Can you tell us anything about Fazio's personal commitment to the project?  Do you know anything about the sponsor's expectations?  Do you know anything about restrictions that may be imposed by regulatory authorities?  And so on.

I have no problem with anyone sharing their personal preference for the architect on any project.  I have no problem with anyone commenting on completed projects they are familiar with.  I'd even accept qualified comments from someone who hasn't even seen a particular course.

But, I do worry about someone prejudging the results before a project is even underway.  All that does is undermine the credibility of what we do here at Golfclubatlas.com.  

Let us know if you have a meaning update on the Forest Course project.  I'm hoping it will turn out to be something special and will be quite disappointed if it doesn't.

[Mike_Cirba]

Earlier today, I re-read the course review on this site for World Woods Pine Barrens.  It's been a couple of years since I played there, and it was almost an ephipany to recall exactly how good and exciting that course is.

I also have read the thoughts of those who have played The Preserve, and they seem uniformly disappointed.

I don't think anyone here truly wants to see Tom Fazio fail to build great golf courses when he gets a worthwhile site, because what would be the point?  What would anyone benefit?

It seems to me that he built a number of good to excellent courses during the period of 1987-93 or so, and more recently his works at Victoria National and Sand Ridge have been generally well received.  

From my perspective, I'd just like to see him stay out of the "restoration/redesign/re-creation" business on classic courses and get back to building interesting modern courses.  Even more so, I'd love to see him take some chances...to build outside of the box and be a trendsetter again.  

Instead, for much of the past decade it's seemed that quality has generally slipped while the quantity of his designs have multiplied.  How could it be otherwise?

One thing we seem to have learned on this site is that the very best courses almost always have been the result of great care and time on site by the architect.  

I hope his course at Pebble turns out fabulously, and I would love to see Tom Fazio get back to perhaps six projects a year...which is what he stated was the most he could possibly do justice to during an interview back about 10 years ago.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Here we go again. . . . .

Let's not get too excited. Despite the prestigious neighborhood, this piece of property is no box of chocolates.

It is a crime, even with inferior land, that it will end up far better than the Preserve.

Maybe Fazio can do what Pete Dye did at Carmel Valley Ranch - fix the Preserve for a fee of one dollar.

Not that the two courses are similar, but the land that The Ranch was built on is horrendous and the new version is decent . . . . . and so is the Preserve.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tim,
    As I explained in my post, I said I hadn't seen any mention of this course at all on this site (not even Adam's), and I read a majority of posts, so to me, this was new news.  How am I supposed to know what you know?  As far as I was concerned, it was new news to me and I hadn't seen it mentioned here (in the 6 months I've known about this site).  Being someone who lived in CA in the past, of course you would have a better chance of knowing about it, which is why I posed the question to Californians or those who know about it.
     Yes, I was a little unfair to Fazio, assuming it might not be an inspiring layout, but how many in the last 7 years have?  Forest Creek, Victoria National, and what out of how many?  I think even you admitted your own Sand Ridge, as much as you like it, is not worthy of top 100 status.  Sure the Forest Course will look pretty with great vistas, but can he or will he devote enough time to it to make it great?
     I formed my own opinion about Fazio being overrated long before I discovered this site from playing about a half a dozen of his suposedly high-profile layouts that the magazines were telling me were best this, best that and despite all the awards he garnered.  I found boredom and sameness to the designs, and even pictures in all the magazines of the ones I hadn't played had a sameness to them.
     Like others have stated, I hope the Forest Course inspires, but I feel other architects could have a better chance at it.  He quotes in the article "It won’t be too difficult, though. Golf doesn’t need to be hard."  No, we don't want difficulty.  We don't want the pros to be embarrassed.  Besides, how many great courses are hard?  (Almost all of them)

[SPDB]

Tim -

I think the problem we had with your posting was how conclusory it was. Let's let the course be built and then, if it is a sub-par effort, we'll bellyache about how other archs should have been used.

My only gripe is that this project will probably be handled out of his Kansas City office, which usually produces sub-par stuff, when compared to the work of the Hendersonville office, where most of the top guys (Marzolf, Banfield) operate out of (Shadow Creek was Banfield).

But seriously, Fazio is not going to do some willy-nilly job on this project given the quality of its immediate neighbors. Soi let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that the course will  be on the quality of some of his other good courses, and reserve judgment until we have something to judge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Who is the driving force behind the project ?

What is his vision for the golf course ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Scott, I realize not everyone can read every post so I do do some repetitive reporting just to keep the info flowing. I would like to know what you mean by great vistas? Perhaps when the Forest is depleted due to the pitch cancre the course will have ocean views otherwise I doubt it. So, the first item for agenda s/b to change the name.

I believe the pine barrens look should be seriously considered due to the unfortunate situation but also because the Pine valley look that TF used at WW would be a wonderful addition to the variety available on the peninsula.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Patrick,
   All I know about it comes from the article I linked to in the original post.  Yes, I know little more than this and perhaps made conclusions without knowing all the facts or seeing the final product.  As I stated before, I was predicting based on the recent odds of greatness (I am a statistician by trade).
    I don't know the vision, but here's my guess (borrowing straight from Jeremy Glenn):

"We believe that a golf course should be in harmony with the natural features of the landscape and should provide a beautiful setting that can be enjoyed by all golfers, regardless of ability.”

Adam,
    My vista comment was two-fold.  One, Fazio is an expert at vistas on a golf course.  Two, I figured, with the Monterey Peninsula having a natural uphill pitch (fairly steep in places)inland from the ocean, that there would be natural vistas no matter how the course was laid out, given a bunch of trees have to be taken down to make hole corridors.  Of course, I could be wrong.

All,
    I have played two Fazio courses that I liked a lot, Forest Creek and WW-Pine Barrens (though the holes without sandy areas have slipped my mind), so I know he can make good stuff, it's just that I've played other modern courses that have inspired me more, on "lesser" real estate.

[Bob_Huntley]

The building of this course is still a long way from fruition. Problems with permitting, environmental concerns and opposition of local residents to the change in traffic flow are all in the mix.

The equestrians are opposed, but they have been over-ridden, as a new facility has been proposed up near the S.F.B Morse Gate on Highway 68.

Adam pointed out that the soil samples are heavily clay ridden giving the project drainage problems similar to those at Spyglass, still a problem twenty six years after the course was built. Hoever, as with MPCC's proposed re-do of the Shore Course, the importing of a few thousand cubic yards of sand will probably rectify that particular headache.

Don't expect to play The Forest Course until about 2004-5.

[Rich_Goodale]

Bob

So how do you "over-ride" a bunch of equestrians?  Is there no end to your talents?

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich:

I thought it a sly comment, thanks for catching it.

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott,

I assumed that people interested in golf architecture took an interest in places like the Monterey Peninsula and probably heard about the possibility of one more course project long ago.  Further, I assumed that people understood the environmental permit hurdle would be very high and whether the project would go forward was very questionable.
Hence, it seemed to me premature to be speculating on what kind of course Fazio or any other architect might build at this site.  

Not just premature, but also a classic example of "Fazio bashing" that, in my opinion, undermines the credibility of our discussion group.  There is no problem criticizing work completed or expressing preference for a different architect. But, at some point a line is crossed: concluding a project will be a "mail in" before permits have even been obtained simply seems unfair.  

Regarding Sand Ridge, I don't recall ever commenting on whether the course deserves top 100 status.  In fact, I've stayed away from that topic altogether in favor of speaking openly about specific course features (both positive and negative).  

[John_Conley]

My take on Tom Fazio branded courses is that they have a sameness if they are "just another project".  But I will argue that he has done some exceptional work on unique sites because of (I presume) a higher level of attention.

I've played Black Diamond's Quarry Course, Pine Barrens at World Woods,  and the West Course at John's Island and think they're all great.  Heard the same about Victoria National.  (Would that name work for an adult film star?  :-/ )

How much attention do you think Tom Fazio and his team would give to another course at Pebble Beach?  I'm guessing it won't look like the courses he did at Bonita Bay, Reynolds Plantation, or Alaqua Lakes.  (All of which I like, but don't rank in the same league as the others I mentioned.)

[MTWilkinson]

John Conley:

I only wish you were right that Fazio would put a "higher level of attention" on a "unique site".

Unfortunately, a quick read through The Preserve thread proves otherwise.  He made 5 - count 'em - 5 site visits at The Preserve and, believe me, that's a "unique site".

I'm not a Fazio basher, I think he's built some very, very good golf courses (Shadow Creek, Wade Hampton, WW Pine Barrens are a few examples), but I think he's spread himself way too thin recently.  It all has a feeling of "beautiful mediocrity."

Five or ten years ago, I would agree that Fazio would spend the time to make the Forest course (or The Preserve) something really special.  Today, if the Pebble Beach Company needs a "name architect" from a marketing or ego standpoint, they'd be much better off having Nicklaus or Norman do it.  

[Joel_Stewart]

I wanted to bring this thread back up to see if anyone has heard any updates or news relating to this new course?

[ChipRoyce]

just waiting patiently for Mr. Naccarato to chime in on the subject.....

[Tommy_Naccarato]

FRom my understanding, the project is going to happen, but is on hold--whatever that means.

I hate the fact that its Fazio building this course, but who else is going to do it? Frankly, I'm rather interested in Mike Strantz work at MPCC. Now that is something to get excited about!