Reverse Camber as a Defense

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, there's a great deal of talk about how Olympic Club has "reverse camber," where the holes turns one way, but the land flows in the other...sort of an "against the grain concept.

What's the thought of architectural design theory about using this as a defense?  Has it fallen out o vogue?  If so why?  Would it be a god way to defend par off the tee especially?  Perhaps even help in the search to put a greater emphasis on shot shaping?
What do we think about Olympic Club?  We almost never talk about it on this board.  From the threads I've read there are a goodly number of fans.  I've also seen some criticism.

It will also have a 550-ish par 4 and a 670-ish par-5...which on it's face scares me...

Your thoughts?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jay,

reverse camber works well because it forces the player to shape the shot. With modern equipment this is much harder than in the past and such ideas should be used in the first line to make the players think. 550 yard par 4 are a joke that show a lack of imagination and an inherent weakness of any course that feels it needs to resort to such gimmicks IMHO

Jon

[Mike_Cocking]

Hey jay,

I think its a great defense and sadly many of the more subtle strategic ploys involving fairway contour do get forgotten in favour of the flashy and more obvious bunkering.  Think #14 and #16 at pasatiempo - even #12 which from memory has a touch of the reverse camber.  17 west at royal melbourne is an excellent example - it also has a couple of traps but plenty of width to push anything but the perefct draw away to the non preferred side.  18 west also does it a touch.

I prefer it when there is a decent amount of short grass on the 'other side' so that a less than perfect shot gets drawn away to face a difficult angle rather than just running into the rough.  The extra width encourages the golfer (or me anyway) to shape their shot accordingly, whereas a 22 yard fairway doesn't, as is the case at olympic.  Its such a challenge to hit such narrow fairways i think most wold just hit their stock shot rather than attempt something more creative.

Mike.

[Alex Miller]

Jay,

reverse camber works well because it forces the player to shape the shot. With modern equipment this is much harder than in the past and such ideas should be used in the first line to make the players think. 550 yard par 4 are a joke that show a lack of imagination and an inherent weakness of any course that feels it needs to resort to such gimmicks IMHO

Jon

The 550 yard par 4 will be the first, correct? Isn't it going to play much shorter than the yardage thanks to elevation change? Yardage is just a number, and if a par 4, like the 17th at Kapalua which is listed at 560, plays like a par 4 I don't care what the yardage is on the scorecard.

[Jon Wiggett]

Alex,

I do agree with you that it is the playing length that is important and this is why there is some leeway in the length of a hole and its par but 550 is way out this. I do not know which hole it is but I am willing to bet that this hole was a par 4 that has been lengthened due to a perceived need to make it harder.

It would have been better if they had asked a GCA to make the hole a better test at the same length. The much discussed 10th at Riviera is a good example of a short hole that plays interesting but is not gimmicky. Length is the tool that clubs use when they lack the imagination or courage to improve a hole through stratergy.

I will take this back if the same course has a 430 yard par 5 because it plays longer than the yardage but I bet they don't

Jon

[Jay Flemma]

Mike Davis said guys who play the first six holes in +2 would be doing great...I don't remember which holes will be the 550-yard par-4 (I thought it was 17, but it might be one...)

You guys read my mind, I was wondering if reverse camber might not be a good and fair way of defending par.  Has it fallen out of vogue in the age of bulldozers?  Or fdo I need to get out more?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think it is a great defense and not one found on many courses. Olympic Lake is a special play because of that feature. It is a great distance equalizer. You do have to be able to shape a shot to keep it on the fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

Olympic has a lot of reverse-camber holes, but reverse-camber PLUS TREES is not a great combination.

Royal Melbourne was mentioned by Mike Cocking, it actually has quite a bit of reverse camber on some of the most famous holes -- not just 17 West but also 6 West and 18 West and 1 East.

Crystal Downs has a bit, too, on #4 and #5 and #12.  I'd never thought of it as a feature of MacKenzie's work, but now I will have to think about it a bit more thoroughly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jay,

I think it's an horrendous feature on a dogleg.

Metedeconk has several of them and they're tree lined.

It's amongst my least favorite feature.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a hole with this feature, that I like.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom explain why with trees are a negative at Olympic Lake. Clearly these holes were not designed with trees in mind. However one still needs to hit a bad shot to get in the trees. A well hit shot not shaped enough is just in the rough a few yards.

[Sean_A]

Olympic has a lot of reverse-camber holes, but reverse-camber PLUS TREES is not a great combination.

Royal Melbourne was mentioned by Mike Cocking, it actually has quite a bit of reverse camber on some of the most famous holes -- not just 17 West but also 6 West and 18 West and 1 East.

Crystal Downs has a bit, too, on #4 and #5 and #12.  I'd never thought of it as a feature of MacKenzie's work, but now I will have to think about it a bit more thoroughly.

Having just played Dr Mac's Sutton Coldfield there are at least two on that course which Dr Mac probably designed.  I agree wholly with reverse cambers and trees (and humpbacks and trees!) - the two don't mix well unless the corridor is massive with a short cut of rough to hold balls up.  I like reverse cambers best when one doesn't have to shape the tee shot - meaning there is a good lay-up option which leaves a long second and a way to cheat up the inside of the dogleg for the very bold.

Ciao

[Mike_Cocking]

Tom,

I did wonder about the Mackenzie thing - when I started thinking about Pasatiempo and Royal Melbourne.  I guess Augusta has some - 9, 14 and 2 (?).  Cypress Point has the 8th also.

One of my favourites is 14 at Barnbougle - with enough width to kick anything but a well controlled fade away down the hill leaving a bad angle in.

Mike.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like the concept a lot. But it really does need space and correct wind direction (if on a windy site)

[Jay Flemma]

Check out this great Joe Bausch photo of 1 at St. George's, which uses reverse camber and a great false front at the green to defend par.



Pat, I think the whole point is to use reverse camber on a dog-leg.  As many others here said, it's a limiting factor on distance and brings back shot shaping.

Tom, I agree, there are too many trees at Olympic Club.  Maybe a specimen tree here or there would be palatable, but that's the chief complaint.

By the way, anybody familiar with the writ5ing of Art Spander?  He's the one who tipped me off about the reverse camber!  World-class sportswriter...

[David_Tepper]

"By the way, anybody familiar with the writ5ing of Art Spander?  He's the one who tipped me off about the reverse camber!  World-class sportswriter..."

Jay -

We here in the San Francisco Bay Area have known Art Spander's work for many years. In addition to his golf writing (for which he received the PGA Lifetime Achievement Award), he is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame for his writing.

From Wikipedia:

"Spander has covered 42 consecutive Masters Tournaments, 32 Super Bowls, 40 U.S. Open Golf Tournaments, 29 British Open Golf Tournaments, 25 Wimbledons and 25 Final Four's. He has also attended 55 consecutive Rose Bowls, initially as a spectator and vendor and the last 45 as a journalist."


His blog: www.artspander.com

DT

[Ian Andrew]

Lots of holes by William Flynn use this, my favourite being the 16th at Huntingdon Valley. There's a couple of others there too, with one being on the C nine. It creates tremendous pressure for the player because often the approach is a fade or draw played from the opposite lie.

Easiest way to add challenge without length.

[Terry Lavin]

I think it's a clever way th toughen up otherwise vulnerable golf holes but it is a dosage-related phenomenon. Bayonet at Fort Ord has way too many IMHO and Olympic's repetitive use is a tad punitive for us slappers.

[Tim Nugent]

Reverse camber is not high on my list as a defense if it is constant throughout the landing area and if there is some manner of hazard along the fairway.  Sure, it is easy to just look at it from the vantage point of "the good" golfer (although  "extremelygood" is more like it.  Sure, it is romantic to think in terms of "shaping" shots but seriously, jjust what percentage of golfers are we talking about here?  Most golfers have one flight pattern, be it fade, draw or straight.  If you restrict the available angle off the tee to a dogleg with a bunch of flanking trees, only one class of ball flight will be rewarded while the other 2 are penalized.
afterall, shouldn't we be striving to make courses playable to the greatest number of players?
Most "against-the-grain" fairways are a result of routing without the ability of earthwork to remedy the landform.  
Could some of the opening holes have been routed differently to eleviate this condition?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I played Olympic Lake about 12 years ago when I was not such a poor ball striker as I am now. I was there in February or March and the ball simply stopped on landing. It didn't bound away into trouble. So the reverse cambers did not really interfere with play. The overhanging trees most certainly did interfere, but I gather there has been a good thinning out in the subsequent years.

But thinking about two Colt courses near me in Cheshire, Sandiway and Ringway, both feature reverse camber holes.

The 10th at Sandiway is a serious par 4, 460 yards uphill. The fairway curves gradually to the left as it climbs maybe 40 feet over the first 420 yards or so. There is plenty of room on the right, but the reverse camber will run the ball away, resulting in a considerable loss of distance, putting the green well out of reach in regulation. The left hand side of the fairway is lined with dense forest. In order to hold the left hand side of the fairway (to get a decent line in to the green on what is in effect a double dog-leg) you have to risk driving as close as possible to those trees. It is a fine test of nerve and skill.

At Ringway there are several reverse camber dog-legs. These date from 1912 or early 1920s, when Colt revised the course. The reverse cambers occur at my sort of driving length and a bit farther. But today's big hitters can often take out the dog-leg completely or at least drive beyond the point at which the reverse camber ends. So for the good players the reverse cambers are irrelevant, whereas we oldies are penalised considerably.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will say I always enjoyed Olympic and the challenge of roping it right inside the high tree line, but then,  I am usually a pretty straight driver.  I also enjoyed Castle Harbor and Mid Ocean, where the dryness and cross slope made playing to the exact high edge of the fw the ONLY play.

Ralph Plummer seems to have incorporated just one of those per course around DFW.  Not sure if it just worked out that way, or he liked that as a once per course tee shot concept, not unlike Dye and his cape holes.

I would fall into the "Its okay once per course (maybe twice, once left, once right) as a change of pace tee shot.  And then, only if there was enough roll out room to still hold it in the fw.  In general, I don't know why, as Tim N says, anyone would think purposely building a course to kick a tee shot into the rough unless its absolutely perfect is a good idea, design wise.  Why design to stop the 0.01% when you are making the rest of us mere mortals so miserable playing out of the rough?

While I think the containment fw that were popular in the 90's perhaps went too far in helping the golfer, I would still generally alter the ground to make the LZ at least neutral to the golfer.  I don't think good design purposely funnels balls off the target zones, although it does happen once in a while - Gathering bunkers, reverse slope greens, etc.  But, there needs to be a way to actually play around it with a good shot.

[Alex Miller]

Olympic has a lot of reverse-camber holes, but reverse-camber PLUS TREES is not a great combination.

Royal Melbourne was mentioned by Mike Cocking, it actually has quite a bit of reverse camber on some of the most famous holes -- not just 17 West but also 6 West and 18 West and 1 East.

Crystal Downs has a bit, too, on #4 and #5 and #12.  I'd never thought of it as a feature of MacKenzie's work, but now I will have to think about it a bit more thoroughly.

To expand on this, and no doubt Tom has thought of it already, ANGC has reverse camber on #1, #9, #11, #14 (to a degree), #17 and #18.

[Tim Gavrich]

The 7th at Cascades (Flynn again, Ian Andrew) has quite a steep tilt left to right on the 7th, which is ever so slightly a dogleg left.  But what really makes that hole is the very elevated green.  It's one hole on that golf course about which I am ambivalent.

[Scott Macpherson]

Harry Colt incorporated Reverse camber into his designs. There are a number of examples on his London area courses. Most people can think of the 17th at Wentworth. I like his one at Muirfield – the 14th hole. It's quite subtle, but just enough to get you out of position if you have the wrong shape on the ball.

[BCrosby]

Nugent writes:

"Most "against-the-grain" fairways are a result of routing without the ability of earthwork to remedy the landform."

I wonder how many reverse camber fw's exist simply because, given a routing, they were too expensive to fix.

Bob   

[Rich Goodale]

To me, two of the most memorable golf holes in the world are 3 and 4 at Olympic Lake.  Most of the courses most often "ranked" in the top 10 of the world would be significantly improved if they had been gifted that land and the architecture which graces those holes.