Which golf architect do wish you knew better?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Past and present. I wish I was more familar with Colt and Strantz.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
You beat me to the punch, I was sort of getting at this in the other post.

Past:  Mackenzie
Present:  Doak

[Gib_Papazian]

Personally, I would like to somehow get a look at the work Old Tom Morris did before his courses were refined and/or modified.

Anybody curious what County Down looked like the day it opened? How about Lahinch? Not just a photo or two, but how it actually played. At County Down, where were the tees on #2 and #11? With the equipment of the time, was the carry over the ridge possible for the vast majority of players?  

Did his bunkers have an artisitic flair or were they utilitarian?

I suppose the same goes for Alan Robertson.

[RJ_Daley]

past - Bendelow
still present-not active - Eddie Hackett (I hope he is still with us)
contemporary - way too many to name

[Dan King]

The late great Eddie Hackett is no longer with us.  He died in 1996.  Click here for a tribute to Eddie Hackett.

Deceased: I'll go with C.B. Macdonald.
Alive: We don't have much Pete Dye around here. I've played a few of his courses in my travels but not nearly enough.

They had no money, you know. I told them if you're that keen on golf, I'll go down and I'll put a stone in for a tee and a pin in for a green, and you can pay me when you can.
 --Eddie Hackett (on adding a back nine to Connemara)

[RJ_Daley]

 actually Dan, I have that book and that is what I was influenced by.  The description of the grand old gentleman was written in the present and it said that he was still going strong at 85 (in 1996), and somehow I missed that he had passed.  That whole beautiful chapter describing Hackett kept me thinking that I have had the good fortune to meet a fellow of similar humility and grace, that happens to be a golf course design/builder who I won't embarrass by naming, although anyone who knows me recognises who I am thinking of...

[Ran Morrissett]

Past: the firm of Campbell/Hutchison/Hotchkin as their writing helps nudge them past Hugh Alison

Present: Rod Whitman

[TEPaul]

Gib:

I actually had the good fortune to have a chat (and play with the man at County Down) who would be considered the course historian. Have you ever seen the old routing (which he just happened to find in a tube) that's under as much glass as the Mona Lisa in the front sitting room?  

Anyway, that routing isn't even that much like what the original Tom Morris course was apparently. He said, I believe, that the original course would have been little like what is there today and I don't even know that any of the old green sites are still in existence, but I'm sure some must be. What I do remember him saying is that the original first hole started about where the restaurant is at the entrance to the Slieve Donnard Hotel and as you know that isn't very close to where the first hole starts now; it may even be 400-500yds distance!

Also, I really have no idea how accurate they are, but I did notice that Cornish and Whitten say that much of Old Tom's work may have been much more utilitarian than we, today, think it was--actually I think they implied much of his work would have been considered pretty bad if it existed in original form today!

To answer Tom MacW's question, I would like to see more Banks, certainly Langford and Colt and more Mackenzie. Of course I would also like to see everything that's left from original of Thomas/Bell, maybe Behr and their unique Southern Cal canyon routings. But TommyN and GeoffShac say little of what they did is left today. I did study Riviera for about half a day this summer but would love to go back and study it some more. There are things about that golf course in that particular space that are a real architectural education--not all that easy to pick up--but when you start to they are definitely a sophisticated architectural education!

[Ran Morrissett]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Stanley Thompson.

If you were fortunate to play Capilano, Banff, Jasper Park, St. George's, and Cape Breton Highland, you might just end up with five new ones amongst your all-time top fifty favorites - not a bad batting average!

[Craig Rokke]

past: I have yet to play a MacKenzie or Raynor


present: I have yet to play a Jim Engh course.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm also surprised by the lack intrigue with old Stanley, he'd be very close to the top of the architects I most admire. You can't say his courses don't look good in photos, perhaps it is Canadian thing. Plus three of the five courses Ran mentioned are open to the public, in addition to Chateau Montebello and Sleepy Hollow in Cleveland. If you are willing to travel to gorgeous lacations (Canadian Rockies, Cape Breton, British Columbia & Cleveland) he might be the easiest to study. And he certainly had a distinctive style.

I also get the impression Old Tom was not much of a golf architect, those who wrote about the poor work of his era (and there were many) preferred to pick on poor Tom Dunn, probably because Old Tom was such a beloved figure and I don't think he ever advertised himself as a much of a designer.

What are Charlie Bank's best designs? Did he have the shortest career of any big name architect?

[Gib_Papazian]

Thanks Tom,
I'm going back next year to Ireland and will look for that in the clubhouse.

Unlike everywhere else I've been in the U.K., they were extremely cold and borderline rude at County Down when I expressed an interest in examining some of their historical artifacts.

Because it is my 2nd favorite golf course on the planet, I'd be in heaven if they would let me dig into everyting like Chris Moore did at Hoylake.  

Maybe you can give me the name of your friend for my next trip.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
Alberta and East Coast, but no B.C.  Montebello is located in Quebec, within easy distance of either Montreal or Ottawa.  I played there for the first time in years in the fall.  A fun course that is about to undergo some changes, which Jeramy knows all about.

As for Thompson, you could play Banff Springs, Jasper, Cape Breton and Montebello for less $ then you one round at many of top American public courses.  Of course there is some substantial travel, but all are worth it.

I should double as a tourism advocate.

[TEPaul]

Gib:

I'm going to find the man's name I played with and spoke with about the old routing and get it to you and write him too to tell him of your extreme interest in the history of County Down. I really doubt that he or anyone would be rude if they understood your interest. He's a significant guy in golf too being a past Captain of the R&A--a great guy.

That's ironic that you found them rude. I found them very gracious although one of our days there was hanging around for an entire round behind a group of really borderline American bores that had Shadow Creek sweaters on and were doing their best to see if they could stay on the golf course for about 5 1/2 hours.

One of those bores remains burned in my brain because we walked off the 18th and around the corner of the pro shop in the neighborhood of 3pm on Sept. 11th and this guy came running out of the clubhouse hysterically screaming those sons of bitches had flown a plane into the World Trade Center. We looked at this guy in amazement for a second, went into the pro shop and watched the horror unfold in stunned silence.

Three of our eight guys from Gulph Mills started to really panic as they had direct family in and around the Twin Towers and they ran into the office in the clubhouse to ask if they could use the phones. There are five of the nicest ladies in there who had been really pleasant to me the day before and they said to those guys; "Just call direct, make as many calls as you want and talk as long as you want and don't even think about what it costs, we'll take care of it!"

I just thought that was such a warm and spontaneous act of human kindness!

[TEPaul]

Man, do I love this new Golfclubatlas! I wrote "Sons of B...." in the previous post referring to what somebody was screaming about the terrorists and the bells and whistles of this new site seamlessly turned it into "The Sons of pregnant doges" when I hit "Post"!

[Rich_Goodale]

"Sons of pregnant doges?"  And I had thought all along that those old Venetian magistrates were all men..........

[Matthew MacKay]

  At the risk of sounding like a travel agent, the Greater Toronto Region has more golf courses than Myrtle Beach and among them are many Stanley Thompson designs.  Some are public such as Whirlpool or Lakeview while any of his numerous private course designs are accessable with some phone calls or connections.  Anyone interested in golf architecture or more specifically Stanley Thompson's work would be amiss if they failed to explore this bountiful golf resource, eh?

[Brian Phillips]

Alive: Pete Dye ... I love his book and have never played one of his courses yet.

Deceased: There are so many.  I would love to have a one to one with MacKenzie to find out what really happenend at Alwoodley. ,  

Braid to ask him if he really did write Advanced Golf and to ask him if he classed himself as an architect.  

Fred Hawtree to ask what he thinks of Martins designs these days....

[WoodironAndy]

Past: Raynor and Banks

Present: Gil Hanse. Have yet to play any of his original designs. Will seek out his works in 2002 as I travel. Absolutely love what I've seen in pictures as well as read about here on GCA.

[Chris_Clouser]

I would love to hear more talk about Perry Maxwell and Bill Diddel.

[David Wigler]

The whole sordid journey that has led me to countless hours of productive time being spent on GCA when I could be doing any number of other things and business trips planned to the middle of nowhere (Instead of sending an employee) because I heard there was a new course nearby that I had to see was started by playing The River Course at Kohler when it first opened (On a legit business trip) and being given a copy of "Bury me in a Pot Bunker".  I would definitely choose Pete Dye and want to ask him how he can justify what he did to my life.

[Tom Huckaby (Guest)]

The anti-potty-talk thing is indeed something else...

And interesting how we all tend to have different experiences at these clubs.  I too was treated warmly and wonderfully at RC Down, but I was treated like an unwanted dog at Chicago GC, where others had great treatment.  I guess in the end these clubs are comprised of people and they have good days and bad days....

And Gib, if RCD is your 2nd fave, just what is #1? I think I know but I am never sure... a certain CBMac place that still has me whacko?

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am also very curious about the original Old Tom Morris routings. Raynor is next. Stanley Thompson was just brilliant.

[George Pazin]

Being borderline-landlocked in the 'Burgh, I'd like to get to know Mr. Fownes work a bit. I'd also be happy getting to know Mr. Raynor a little better. Anyone know much about Ross's work at Allegheny Country Club? I think I might be playing there in the spring, if all goes well.

Saw just enough of Gil Hanse's work in Philly to know that I want to see more. And play more.

[Peter Galea]

The "one hit wonders."