[Ben Sims]

A century of history has given contextual reference to the importance of Charles Blair Macdonald and his crowning acheivement, National Golf Links.  CB Mac' and NGLA's impact on golf in America--both in his proteges and the courses that NGLA inspired--cannot be overestimated.  It could be argued that a generation of architects and golf courses got their lead from both him and NGLA.  History gives us this context.

What will Pete Dye's historical legacy's be in 100 years?  I would argue that Pete Dye--once his courses and the courses of his protege's are given historical context--will be considered the pre-imminent architect of the last half of the 20th century.  Though RTJ, Nicklaus and Fazio all deserve some merit in that conversation, their protege's impact on golf has been less than that of Pete Dye.  

Going further, what will Sand Hill's historical legacy be in a century?  My opinion is that it will have a sort of NGLA-ish stature among the other courses of its era.  The model started by Sand Hills has inspired dozens of dreamers around the world to use the best sites for golf that are available, no matter the location.  The result of Dye's mentorship and Sand Hill's sheer ballsiness has been two decades of designs that have changed golf architecture forever.  Is this too majestic a title to bestow upon Mr. Dye and Sand Hills?  What other elements are at play?

[Jud_T]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.  Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement.  (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)

[Bill_McBride]

Bill Coore's designs with Ben Crenshaw seem to have little correlation to the style he would have learned from working for Pete Dye.    Thoughts?

I haven't been to Sand Hills, but see very little taken from say PGA West. 

[Ben Sims]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.  Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement.  (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)

Jud,

High Pointe was 1989 and Kapalua was also built before, in 1991.  But I don't think either qualifies as the seminal work that launched an age of design.  Sand Hills is the daddy.  

[PCCraig]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.

Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name. I think Pete Dye's work is very strong, innovative beyond its years, and has stood the test of time and technology. I think Pete Dye is closer to CBM, Raynor, & MacKenzie than someone known mostly for his great pupils.  

[RJ_Daley]

I'm hoping that Tom Doak will chime in here, since he and Bill Coore started out with Dye, and should have the best understanding of Dye's relationship with the Sand Hills minimalist movement, if you might characterize that whole early 199s scene, and Dye's overall impact on GCA development of construction and scope of project result.

But, if I understand some of Tom Doak's previous comments related to this subject, and other word of mouth observation of Dye's roll in the development of Sand Hills GC in particular, Dye deferred a roll in SHGC when Youngscapp asked him to come out and take a look at the property and evaluate the development overall prospects.  That may have come on the heels of Whitten possibly suggesting to Youngscapp after his development of Firethorn, that he ought to consider the Sand Hills as a potential site of new minimalist golf course development taking advantage of the incredible sand hills, previously untapped.

I don't think that sand hill minimalist, or at least collaboration and in-harmony with natural golf terrain idealism to build a pure upon the earth golf design could or should go back to Mr. Dye.  I think Pete Dye's legacy lies in big, bold, new age challenging designs that had their own set of design characteristics, that were anything but minimalist.  Dye's legacy in my mind is one who not only could tame the land and reform it into a golf venue, but a golf venue that would be highly challenging to the burgeoning professional game, with need for bold visuals for TV, and tough challenges for advances in B&I technology.  Anything we readily think of as a Pete Dye project is anything but minimalist.  And, most of us think of sand hills projects as at least flirting with minimalism.  

So to conclude, I think Dye can only be thought of as the one that deferred involvement in the sand hills movement, and stuck with his big developments and wealthy developers that could afford his construction theatrics.  I think Pete Dye's protege's are all over the map in which category of golf design philosophy they follow, and some follow multiple ones.

[John Shimp]

Yes Doak's and Coore's best courses are amazing and highly ranked but Dye holds his own beautifully in about any list.  Further, his courses are older than the Doak/Coore courses generally and therefore the shine has had plenty of time to wear off -- not that the shine will wear off PacDunes or Sand Hills.

I checked golfweek's top 100 quickly.  Dye has 6 top 20 courses numbers 4, 9, 10, 17, 18, and 20 with many more ranked below that.  Btw Harbor Town is ranked 42 on that list which I don't get at all...  In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever.  I think all 3 of those are generally underrated.  

[PCCraig]

 In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever.  I think all 3 of those are generally underrated.  

In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.

[Jud_T]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.

Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.

Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?

[PCCraig]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.

Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.

Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?

Absolutely. No offense to Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, or Bill Coore...but a hell of a lot more people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass, and The Ocean Course than Pacific Dunes, Boston Golf Club, and Sand Hills. While their work is really great, ultimately isn't the modern minimalist age mostly a niche movement?

[George Freeman]

In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.

Pat - you think Whistling Straights is underrated?  I've never played, but I've heard many an opinion that the course is overrated, if anything.

[Matt Kardash]

Dye is truly one of the heavy weights of golf design. He is up there with all the best of the golden age era architects. He is without a doubt a top 3 to 5 architect of all time. When you rank that high on the list it is just a matter of personal preference in how you rank them. The man has at least a dozen 7 on 10's (Doak scale).

[PCCraig]

In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.

Pat - you think Whistling Straights is underrated?  I've never played, but I've heard many an opinion that the course is overrated, if anything.

George,

Sorry, I was mostly referring to the comment "In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever."

[Ben Sims]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.

Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.

Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?

Absolutely. No offense to Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, or Bill Coore...but a hell of a lot more people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass, and The Ocean Course than Pacific Dunes, Boston Golf Club, and Sand Hills. While their work is really great, ultimately isn't the modern minimalist age mostly a niche movement?

Pat,

More people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course than know about Pine Valley, Cypress Point, or NGLA.  What's your point?  Legacy and popularity are two different things.

[Tom_Doak]

PCraig:  I'd wager that about as many people know about Pacific Dunes as about Whistling Straits.  Tournaments aren't everything.

Ben:  Trying to predict whose legacy will be more important in 50-100 years is a pretty inexact science -- in fact, it's just pure speculation.  Plus, the answer depends at least in part on who gets to write the history when it comes time.  All I can say is that I've known Pete Dye and Bill Coore since 1981, and I have never heard either of them waste a minute's time wondering how history will treat them.  They are only focused on building the best projects they can build.

[Michael George]

I think Dye's largest legacy will be reversing the school of golf course architecture of Robert Trent Jones of building golf courses that were straightforward tests of golf - hard par, easy bogey - and which are epitomized by places like Firestone South, Hazeltine and others.  To my knowledge, Dye was really the first architect to return to a strategic school and in my opinion used angles as well as any architect.  I think his trademarks will always be Kiawah Ocean, Harbor Town, Whistling, The Golf Club, Sawgrass, Pete Dye GC and Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog.    

However, I don't think he will receive (nor does he deserve) any credit for the minimalist movement in golf course architecture.  I think the names of Coore and Doak will be provided credit for this movement and surely Sand Hills will be the course that most believe started it all (even though I think Tom Doak was writing about it before this course).    Along with Sand Hills, I think Bandon Dunes will be the showplace of the minimalist movement (or just American links golf for a long time.  I don't think it is any coincedence that Doak and Coore designed 4 of the 5 courses there.

I think Dye's legacy re: those that worked under him will be that of a nice and giving man that worked hard and was willing to share what he knew with others - ON SITE - which I am sure included his thoughts on strategic architecture.  If anything, he certainly is underestimated for his ability to identify talented people.

[Anthony Gray]

  For me Pete Dye was a guy that loved design and took what he learned as a traveling golfer and incorperated it into his own work. Didn't CB do the same?

  Anthony

[Jud_T]

Pat,

There's a dozen courses on Golf Magazine's US top 100 that could arguably be called minimalist with perhaps 3 or 4 more in the pipeline.  Combined with the ascendance of Bandon Dunes resort, I think it's well beyond a niche movement at this point.

[Tom_Doak]

I think Dye's largest legacy will be reversing the school of golf course architecture of Robert Trent Jones of building golf courses that were straightforward tests of golf - hard par, easy bogey - and which are epitomized by places like Firestone South, Hazeltine and others.  Dye was really the first architect to return to a strategic school and in my opinion used angles as well as any architect.  I think his trademarks will always be Kiawah Ocean, Harbor Town, Whistling, The Golf Club, Sawgrass, Pete Dye GC and Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog.  Others like Blackwolf Run, French Lick, Honors and Long Cove also will stand the test of time.  

However, I don't think he will receive (nor does he deserve) any credit for the minimalist movement in golf course architecture.  I think the names of Coore and Doak will be provided credit for this movement and surely Sand Hills will be the course that most believe started it all (even though I think Tom Doak was writing about it before this course).    Along with Sand Hills, I think Bandon Dunes will be the showplace of the minimalist movement for a long time.  I don't think it is any coincedence that Doak and Coore designed 4 of the 5 courses there.

I think Dye's legacy re: those that worked under him will be that of a nice and giving man that worked hard and was willing to share what he knew with others - which I am sure included his thoughts on strategic architecture.  If anything, he certainly is underestimated for his ability to identify talented people.

Hmm ... I'm not sure if Pete was really a genius at identifying talented people ... not like MacKenzie, anyway.  The legacy of Pete Dye is that he gave so many of us a chance to learn ... and, as you say, he was willing to share everything he knew with anyone who showed a sincere interest.  I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me.  His response?  "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him."  That is the Dyes in a nutshell.

As for architecture, the real change from Mr. Jones to Mr. Dye was not so much style as METHOD.  Everyone from the Jones camp learned to design courses by drawing plans.  Everyone that worked for Pete learned to go out and get dirty building their own courses.  THAT is the real connection between Pete and all of us minimalists that have come since.

[PCCraig]

Legacy and popularity are two different things.

Not always. I'm not comparing PV, CPC, or NGLA to any of Pete Dye's designs, only refuting the statement that Pete Dye will be known more for his former pupils' courses than his own. 

Tom_Doak:

I'd take that bet. 

[George Freeman]

As for architecture, the real change from Mr. Jones to Mr. Dye was not so much style as METHOD.  Everyone from the Jones camp learned to design courses by drawing plans.  Everyone that worked for Pete learned to go out and get dirty building their own courses.  THAT is the real connection between Pete and all of us minimalists that have come since.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  I think that was the answer everyone was waiting for.

[Ben Sims]

Ben:  Trying to predict whose legacy will be more important in 50-100 years is a pretty inexact science -- in fact, it's just pure speculation.  Plus, the answer depends at least in part on who gets to write the history when it comes time.  All I can say is that I've known Pete Dye and Bill Coore since 1981, and I have never heard either of them waste a minute's time wondering how history will treat them.  They are only focused on building the best projects they can build.

Tom,

Mostly I was bored and the weather is bad down here, not much training today.  So I let myself ramble.  

Having met Bill Coore once, and read yours and many others' stories about Pete Dye, I wouldn't expect them to give two oysters about how they'll be remembered.  That's probably why they've built so many great courses.  They were out doing stuff rather than making press releases.  Legacy is a funny thing.  It often turns into something it never was to begin with.  I don't think even the most accurate of prognositcators would've expected something like Old Macdonald to be born of CB Mac and NGLA's legacy circa 1910.   That's all I was trying to say.  I was just wondering if Mr. Dye or those involved with Sand Hills ever really knew how much of an impact they were making.

[Michael George]

For the record, I added the words "ON SITE" in my post before Tom posted his response.  I am not enough of a dope to add the words after his response.  As proven regularly, I am not concerned about being wrong more often than not.

For those that have not read it, Pete Dye's book "Bury Me in a Pot bunker' is a wonderful read and full of funny stories.  Also, you really get a sense of how unconcerned he is about other people's perceptions.     

[Mac Plumart]

what will Sand Hill's historical legacy be in a century?

Sand Hills has morphed into something larger than itself.  It has become, and will remain, one of the truly great golf courses in the history of the game.  Side by side with The Old Course, The National Golf Links of America, Pebble Beach, and a few others.  All of these courses are great for the playing of the game, or so I'm told, but they all have a legend, an aura, that is perhaps bigger (and better) than the courses themselves.

[Matthew Rose]

I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA.  i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.  Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement.  (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)

Art Blakey doesn't really have any famous offspring, that I know of... do you mean members of his band?

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