LINKS 100

[Sean_A]

Boony

Yes, the big problem here is trying minimize what floats my boat and that huge percentage of the courses are very close in quality.  That means there is very little difference between #s15 and 50.  Thats the major fault with 1-100 ranking. 

Scott

Yes, as of now I would pick St Enodoc #4. 

Willie

Yes, I have a good memory of all the courses listed.  I didn't rank courses which I have fuzzy memories of - its quite a few.

Ninth 10

81 Stoneham
82 Bearwood Lakes
83 County Louth
84 European Club
85 Royal St. David's
86 West Lancashire
87 Tralee
88 Mid Pines Club
89 LuLu Country Club
90 Hillside   

I think Links needs to rethink some of the courses they offer to be ranked.  To leave out Stoneham, Beau Desert, Little Aston etc is a bad over-sight.

Ciao 

[Sean_A]

Brian

You must remember that the further one goes down the list the higher chance for skewed results (I can't see how this is avoidable based on the infinite variety of experiences unless one locks into magazine group think) because there is little to distinguish courses outside of the very best.  No, this is an honest list, or as honest as I can make it.  I have never been secretive in my opinions about some big guns really being pop guns in disguise.  I have ranked highly quite a few courses I wouldn't care to revisit.  Believe me, my favourites list is miles different from this.  Have you tried to do this ranking lark and really look objectively as possible at the designs than compare them?  Its really an impossible task, but if you haven't done it, try it.

Tralee, while providing some fun shots with a few bumps along the way, is long way short of great.  In truth, its a mess and I bet a top notch archie would have created something quite special with that site. 

CO Louth left me greatly unimpressed, but many folks whose opinion I trust say otherwise.  I may need to revisit. 

Final 9

91 Royal North Devon
92 Trevose (Championship)
93 Southport & Ainsdale
94 PGA Catalunya
95 Merion (West)
96 Forest of Arden
97 The Belfry (Brabazon)
98 Grand Traverse (The Bear)
99 Nefyn & District

I would be greatly interested in seeing other folks rankings based on the LINKS courses listed with the personal add ins.

If this process has taught me anything its that this sort of non-grouping ranking is far too imperfect to take seriously or even contemplate arguing over.

Ciao

 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like this list a lot… I mean – You are going to get some that make you choke on your cornflakes but it is the view of one man (and a man who has good views in my opinion) after all.

In many ways, I’d rather take the advice of a list like this than one of the mags. This top-10 would offer up much more fun than the usual magazine suspects.

However, County Louth (one of the very best courses in Ireland) in the eighties along with a desire to take Sean back to my own club and also show him a little hidden gem next door in Corballis makes me ask the question… When are you coming back to Dublin, Sean?

[Sean_A]

Brian

I didn't mean to attack, just earnestly asking you to go through the process - its much crazier than I ever imagined. 

Ally

I would like to go to Dublin and wish it was in Wales - tee hee.  Its on the possibility list for 2013, but I don't think my group will go for it.  I may have to organize a separate Ally Arrangement, but I am so lazy when it comes to getting on a plane to play golf.  I have not taken up loads of invites because of not wanting the hassle (and expense) of flying - maybe one day though.

Ciao 

[Martin Toal]

That was a fun list. It is obviously a connoisseur's list and these tend to be rather individual with a few idiosyncratic choices, but all the better for them.

Great to see some great lesser known courses put up into higher slots than the standard lists.

I would be fascinated to hear some of the courses which did not make the 99!

[Ben Stephens]

Guys,

It is a fun list but one that would bring up a constructive argument. I am not surprised that Sean has put Notts and Carnoustie above 50 in his rankings I would put them in my top 10/20. It seems to me that the courses with more quirkiness is higher up the list rather than ones that are long, hard and fair.

Pennard above Hunstanton??? - Hunstanton is far much better from 1-18 especially Gordon Irvine's rebunkerng work over the winter has raised its standards. Pennard has great holes but far too many poor holes which lets it down.

St Enodoc is very similar to Pennard. Great holes and some poor ones especially 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15.

Swinley better than Portmarnock??? Swinley lacks par 5's which is a big weak spot in my view which the par 3's and par 4's try to make up for it and Portmarnock has great par 3's, par 4'sand par 5's. I would play Portmarnock 7 times to Swinley's 3. I am in between RCD and Portmarnock as the best championship links course on the Emerald isle. If RCD had a better back nine it would be the best without any doubt

Some courses suits certain player's own games - The links courses in Sean's top 10 have wide fairways and uneven lies!.

I disagree Sean's comments that Carnoustie is an over penal course - it needs to be played a number of times with different wind conditions to understand how to play it better.   

Ganton not in your top 100??!

Ben

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Great list that bears further study.  Your recommendations are always welcome.  Personally your favorite list is even more interesting.  

PS- If you think Carnoustie is over the top penal, you can scratch Medinah #3 and Butler National off your to-do list...

[Mark Pearce]

Ben,

I think we can work out from the presence of Ganton on Sean's wish list that it is missing from his list because he hasn't played it.  I disagree with a number of Sean's rankings but am beginning to understand why they are his preferences.  For what it's worth (and I know I need to get back to Hunstanton) I share his view on Pennard vs Hunstanton.

I wouldn't have Rye (or North Berwick) anywhere near as high.  I would have Muirfield and Silloth higher.  It's a good list, though and a helpful tool in understanding what it is that Sean looks for in a course that is different from what I look for.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Sean,

In the past you were very complimentary about Strandhill and Portrush (Valley). Were they close to getting in to your top 99?

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean - I think creating your list was a great idea and disagree with your skepticism over its value. Brian is correct that personal bias MUST enter into such a list. As Ben points out, your higher ranked course present a similar theme of wide and crumpled... but, that does not make the list less interesting or valuable. It is our trying to answer the "why" of your choices that makes this so interesting. I'd love to see Mark's and Ben's lists and compare them to yours. It would make for a wonderful discussion.

[jeffwarne]

Sean, the highly eclectic nature of this list, and the way in which certain courses are ranked in relation to each other, surely suggests that this is more a favourites list than anything else, which suggests it really is about what floats your particular boat? If not, then how would you define it? A list of courses that you would suggest to the punter as broadly ranked in order of quality? I'm not being rhetorical, just curious as to exactly what we should interpret from it. Seeing Tralee and Louth behind several courses I wouldn't put close to the same league despite its shortcomings has made me particularly curious about the exact way in which you have arrived at the decision - especially as you say that price doesn't come into it and joy to be alive factor does.

Ummmmm....It's SEAN's  list.
Over the years having played golf with him and via multiple pm's, as well as from reading his incredible course tours and comments over the years,
I'd say he really did put a lot of his personal biases aside, I would argue to a a fault, and I was hoping to see MORE of his bias in the list.

I happen to think Pennard and Brora are better golf courses than many in his top 40 and below, and definitely better than one in his top 10.
But that's MY bias, and MY list.

Truthfully, very few of us could create as creative a list, as we haven't played as many great courses, or at least as many eclectic courses; however, if many in the treehouse did, no doubt many of his UK courses ranked 80-100 would be bumped off by such greats as PV,NGLA,the 4 courses at bandon, Riviera, Pebble, RCCC, Rustic, Wild Horse,Mountain Lake and no doubt many of the great eclectic courses of the US.

Again, his list and as Mac said maybe on the best list/resources since the CG or LINKS UK 100 because it has a bit of one man's bias whose taste in couses I happen to share .
Perhaps Arble's 99 flavors?


Edit:looks like Donal wants his next 20

[Scott Warren]

Whitty,

I agree St Enodoc is a special place, with some incredible holes and other-worldly views, but #4 is a high position among the other courses Sean has played. Of course it is his list, but to have Baltray so low and St E so high...

[Sean_A]

Jud

Lets put it this way, should I make it to Chicago, Medinah #3 and Butler are not high priorities.  That said, if invited, I would gladly take it up.  One never knows when the penny may drop concerning likes and dislikes.  

Ben

You and I are on completely different wave lengths.  I don't place nearly the same onus on length/championship design for a course to be good as you do.  Indeed, I think championship thinking for the most part is detrimental to good design.  This thinking invariably relies on the same ole things, mo length, mo rough, mo bunkers, less short grass and less variety - a bad formula and in the wrong hands a disastrous formula.  On the other hand, when a championship course pulls off the double of an enjoyable members game and a solid test for the pros it is all the more impressive.  

I can see Hunstanton rising in my list over time (hell, lts be honest, I could wake up tomorrow and think differently for some of these courses), moreso for Notts.  It all depends on how well the plans for each work out.  In any case, I like both courses well enough.  

RE St Enodoc - I can't for the life of me figure out how you can call #s 12 or 14 poor holes.  Especially 14, this is a very clever hole topped with a fantastic green site.  I can see folks having issues with #s 11 & 15, but I think they are just fine.  Its #13 that set right and you won't get an argument from over that one.

Donal

I like Strandhill and Valley Links a ton (and would play them over many listed above), but I couldn't say they are any better than "merely good".  That said, I don't really need anything better than either of these courses.  They provide a great deal of fun, in a great setting without requiring a second mortgage or family history to play.    

Jeff

For the most part, our tastes are very similar.  

I would still like to see other lists - including yours Brian - it would seem you have already down one.  I more or less just eliminated cost, history an club from my the criteria I use for favourites.  I didn't use a tick list of things I look for and if I did, I would probably eliminate some of it like drivable par 4s.  I don't think this feature inherently makes for a better design, but I like this sort of hole.  Same for reachable par 5s.   

Ciao  

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Sean, the highly eclectic nature of this list, and the way in which certain courses are ranked in relation to each other, surely suggests that this is more a favourites list than anything else, which suggests it really is about what floats your particular boat? If not, then how would you define it? A list of courses that you would suggest to the punter as broadly ranked in order of quality? I'm not being rhetorical, just curious as to exactly what we should interpret from it. Seeing Tralee and Louth behind several courses I wouldn't put close to the same league despite its shortcomings has made me particularly curious about the exact way in which you have arrived at the decision - especially as you say that price doesn't come into it and joy to be alive factor does.

Truthfully, very few of us could create as creative a list, as we haven't played as many great courses, or at least as many eclectic courses; however, if many in the treehouse did, no doubt many of his UK courses ranked 80-100 would be bumped off by such greats as PV,NGLA,the 4 courses at bandon, Riviera, Pebble, RCCC, Rustic, Wild Horse,Mountain Lake and no doubt many of the great eclectic courses of the US.

Edit:looks like Donal wants his next 20

The absence of all the usual suspects is what makes his list so interesting and refreshing. In all honesty, I didn't really expect Strandhill to make the list, but I thought Colt's Valley might just sneak in.

Jeff, I think I could say with some confidence that I'd be happy to play any of Sean's 100-198 list

But I am still a bit shocked by the Belfry getting into his list. Did somebody hack into his computer?

[Sean_A]

Donal

The Belfry was listed by LINKS so I included it about as low as it could go. 

Thinking on it, I would probably have Valley Links or Hockley as 100, but as I don't really think places like The Belfry (or The Bear etc) should be there it is best to restrain oneself.  I am not sure why they were listed by LINKS.

What is quite unusual about Valley Links is the very mediocre set of 3s.  Give us a normal high quality Colt set and Valley Links is a shoe in top 100 on my list.

Ciao

[Tom Dunne]

Sean,

The process is difficult and sometimes frustrating, but this is exactly the kind of conversation the LINKS100 was created to produce. It takes courage to stand up and reveal your preferences in such a way--I know, I did the same thing myself on the LINKS site. That "Spotlight" section is going to include both panelists and readers who have come along to create their own ballots and want to share why they did what they did. As Mike Whitaker says, it's the "why" that's most interesting.

Jeff Warne,

You'd be surprised by how many idiosyncratic ballots I've seen, some from pretty prominent golf people. Sean's far from alone--he's just the first to take the initiative to stand up and talk about it in this forum. Which I think is great.   

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Re The Valley's par 3s.  Only the dropping 11th is a bit blah.  But 6, 15 and 18 are excellent and 3rd is decent enough.

[Jim Colton]

Sean,

The process is difficult and sometimes frustrating, but this is exactly the kind of conversation the LINKS100 was created to produce. It takes courage to stand up and reveal your preferences in such a way--I know, I did the same thing myself on the LINKS site. That "Spotlight" section is going to include both panelists and readers who have come along to create their own ballots and want to share why they did what they did. As Mike Whitaker says, it's the "why" that's most interesting.

Jeff Warne,

You'd be surprised by how many idiosyncratic ballots I've seen, some from pretty prominent golf people. Sean's far from alone--he's just the first to take the initiative to stand up and talk about it in this forum. Which I think is great.   

I noticed there's a new panelist profile piece on the Links 100 site. This month is the two Pure Golf Guys, Jamie Patton and Michael Goldstein (I think both GCAers). Why didn't I think of what they're doing 15 years ago?

http://sandbox.linksmagazine.com/blog/post/thomasmdunne/5/featured-blog-March2012/

[Tom_Doak]

Truthfully, very few of us could create as creative a list, as we haven't played as many great courses, or at least as many eclectic courses; however, if many in the treehouse did, no doubt many of his UK courses ranked 80-100 would be bumped off by such greats as PV,NGLA,the 4 courses at bandon, Riviera, Pebble, RCCC, Rustic, Wild Horse,Mountain Lake and no doubt many of the great eclectic courses of the US.

Jeff:

Absolutely right.  The two reasons Sean's list is interesting are that he's not afraid to make his own unusual choices, but also that he has played just the right number of courses to have room for them.  The people that have actually played ALL of the top 100 courses in the world [and then some] seem to feel obligated to make room for most of those courses, which doesn't leave them as much space to expound on courses that most people leave out of the lists altogether.  Sean has enough headroom to compile something that's really interesting.

Still, anytime one focuses on a list ordered from 1-99, you spend a lot of time trying to analyze hair's-breadth differences that really just aren't there at all.  I really doubt Sean had thought much before this exercise about whether his #52 course was really much superior to his #62 course [whatever they are], and if you didn't let him look back on this list, if you made him do it over again a year or two from now he might well flip-flop them.  It is an inexact science -- because it's all a matter of opinion.  Sean just has a more interesting viewpoint than most other observers.

In the end, the thing that matters is not which courses he has rated lower than others, but which he has called to our attention.  There's not much point in looking at the rest, since almost anyone's personal list is overwhelmed by the list of courses they haven't played and can't include, more than the ones they don't include.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Re The Valley's par 3s.  Only the dropping 11th is a bit blah.  But 6, 15 and 18 are excellent and 3rd is decent enough.

Paul

I definitely don't agree with your assessment.  Three drop-shotters, none of which is particularly memorable - especially when we are talking about Colt - is no way to go about designing a set of 3s.  I reckon Colt had a bad breakfast the day he staked out the 3s. 

Jeff

For sure, if I had played more of the US big guns many of my UK courses would drop below 100 especially as I would be far more likely to target courses which interest me rather than randomly playing "the greats". 

Tom

No question I never really thought much about splitting the hairs.  In the end, I just listed some courses because I couldn't really sell one over another.  Its certainly not the way I would go about ranking best courses if I were to get down and dirty about it.  In the end, I am much happier talking about courses and if a list is to be created, make it a list of favourites.  Afterall, its these courses I cherish and would be happy to call the club and book a time. 

Ciao 

[Mac Plumart]

I would be far more likely to target courses which interest me rather than randomly playing "the greats". 

Sean, I'd be curious to hear what courses in the US interest you.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks Sean for taking the time to put that together.  I like how many modest and/or low-to-the-gentle-rolling-countryside courses you have on the list.  And I also like that you get the basic truth of it all: that the only top 100 course that actually means a damn is
yours  (as mine does to me, and Jack's to Jack, and so on and so on and so on).  

Peter

[Sean_A]

I would be far more likely to target courses which interest me rather than randomly playing "the greats".

Sean, I'd be curious to hear what courses in the US interest you.

Jeepers Mac!  There are a lot I am interested in and others I am really interested in, but I will offer the ones I am seriously interested in.  O

CPC
National
Ballyneal
Fishers
Yale
Pasa
Garden City
Myopia
Cal Club
Lawsonia
Eastward Ho!
Old Mac
Essex
French Lick Ross
Leatherstocking
White Bear
Wolf Point


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

If you are ever in that part of the world, I hope you will add Tumble Creek to your list of places to see.  I have a sense that it's held back by two groups:  the ones who think flashier bunkers are always better, and the ones who can't countenance seeing a house anywhere near a golf course.  Since you don't fall into either camp, I'd be curious if you think it's some of our better work or not.

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

If you are ever in that part of the world, I hope you will add Tumble Creek to your list of places to see.  I have a sense that it's held back by two groups:  the ones who think flashier bunkers are always better, and the ones who can't countenance seeing a house anywhere near a golf course.  Since you don't fall into either camp, I'd be curious if you think it's some of our better work or not.

Tom,

Is Tumble your most underrated design? When Renaissance Cup was there, the feedback from the attendees was unbelievably positive. I still maintain that there are a couple of holes there that rival you best holes anywhere.