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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Dove Mountain
« on: February 23, 2012, 10:43:49 PM »
is a much better course than it gets credit for. I have played it 5 times now. I liked it better each time. The greens are unconventional but very fun and interesting. That is what separates it from being just another desert course. There is an endless number of great and fun chips or putts to be found out there.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 10:59:42 PM »
I'll agree, amazing how fewer players are hitting the fairways this year.   I like the unconventional greens, and watching match play. 
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 01:39:47 AM »
Tiger,

Have you played the Burro 9?

If so, is it any "softer" than the other two 9s?

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Kirk Moon

Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 09:46:48 AM »
What is the knock on Dove Mountain?  Never having been there and only having seen it on TV I am surprised to hear that it isn't well liked.  It looks pretty darned interesting to me.  In particular, the greens look to be one of the most interesting aspects of the course.

I just read somewhere that the pros are complaining about the greens being too severe.  Is that it or is it more than that? 

It's hard to tell from TV alone, but the greens at Dove Mountain don't look to be any more severe than the greens at most MacKenzie courses or the Bandon courses.  No one complains about those.  And there is no question that the greens have provided lots of excellent drama in the matches I have seen so far.  Lots of dramatic chip ins.  Some really dramatic long putts.  A number of missed short putts that might have been no brainers on less challenging greens. 

As long as all players are facing the same challenge and particularly since they are in match play where the absolute score on a hole is less important than simply getting down in less strokes than your competitor, I don't understand the complaints.

What's the deal?

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 09:52:02 AM »
What is the knock on Dove Mountain?  Never having been there and only having seen it on TV I am surprised to hear that it isn't well liked.  It looks pretty darned interesting to me.  In particular, the greens look to be one of the most interesting aspects of the course.

I just read somewhere that the pros are complaining about the greens being too severe.  Is that it or is it more than that? 

It's hard to tell from TV alone, but the greens at Dove Mountain don't look to be any more severe than the greens at most MacKenzie courses or the Bandon courses.  No one complains about those.  And there is no question that the greens have provided lots of excellent drama in the matches I have seen so far.  Lots of dramatic chip ins.  Some really dramatic long putts.  A number of missed short putts that might have been no brainers on less challenging greens. 

As long as all players are facing the same challenge and particularly since they are in match play where the absolute score on a hole is less important than simply getting down in less strokes than your competitor, I don't understand the complaints.

What's the deal?

Ditto
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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 10:27:13 AM »
is a much better course than it gets credit for. I have played it 5 times now. I liked it better each time. The greens are unconventional but very fun and interesting. That is what separates it from being just another desert course. There is an endless number of great and fun chips or putts to be found out there.

The course has a lot more topographical variation than you can see on TV. From the green on 3 to the 15th green is a couple hundred feet difference at least and the course makes pretty good use of that broad slope down from the resort. Each hole seems to play up or downhill... with the exception of 18 which might be uphill-slightly and is probably one of the weaker holes on the course.

The slopes of the green seem in line with some of the desert/mountain courses Nicklaus has built in Arizona/New Mexico. It's a bit more manicured than someone like Doak or Crenshaw would do, but it's a solid routing. A definite upgrade from the Gallery course nearby which is a bit of a housing nightmare.... On Dove Mountain, housing and resorts are not within your line of site on about 13-14 holes and only briefly line the 1st fairway as far as I can remember.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 10:31:08 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 10:43:50 AM »
What is the knock on Dove Mountain?  

For perspective, Dove Mountain ranks #51 out of #52 tournament courses on Golf Digest's recent PGA Tour player survey. It's just ahead of Liberty National.  Feedback from the pros is, as expected, quite critical:


"The greens were almost cool, but way off. Give Jack credit for trying to put in contours," said one of this "fine idea, just poor execution." ... "Hate to say it, but there is just nothing positive to say." ... "Building a course in the desert is hard to do. Can't say the setup has done much to help the architecture here either."


http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2012-01/photos-worst-tour-courses#ixzz1nJXqrNBY
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Kirk Moon

Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 12:07:31 PM »
What is the knock on Dove Mountain?  

For perspective, Dove Mountain ranks #51 out of #52 tournament courses on Golf Digest's recent PGA Tour player survey. It's just ahead of Liberty National.  Feedback from the pros is, as expected, quite critical:


"The greens were almost cool, but way off. Give Jack credit for trying to put in contours," said one of this "fine idea, just poor execution." ... "Hate to say it, but there is just nothing positive to say." ... "Building a course in the desert is hard to do. Can't say the setup has done much to help the architecture here either."


http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2012-01/photos-worst-tour-courses#ixzz1nJXqrNBY

So the pros "like contours" but the execution at Dove Mountain is bad?  How so? 

What would the pros say about the greens on Old Mac?  Pasatiempo? 

I understand that they aren't used to playing on courses that have greens with that much contour, and perhaps the speed of the greens is too fast for that much contour.  But green speed is something that can be controlled.  It sounds as though the pros don't think the contouring is "well done". 

How does one define "well done" contouring?   Is the definition different for a pro used to sinking 30 foot putts on relatively flat greens and someone playing the game for fun? 


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 02:45:50 PM »
I am not sure what the Burro 9 is. I am in Houston this week and do not have the score cards/strokesavers with me. If it is part of the other course. They are totally different animals. The fact the pros like or dislike means little to me as an architectural guy. However they do tend to like and give respect to the better designs on the tour like Riviera, Augusta or Pebble Beach. I sure as heck think this is a better course than the one they play in Scottsdale or any of the Palm Springs courses other than La Quinta Mountain. I do not find these greens to be Jack like at all. I would be hard pressed to find 2 or 3 greens in all of the Desert Mountain courses as interesting as any of these.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 07:33:46 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 02:46:39 PM »
Tiger,

Have you played the Burro 9?

If so, is it any "softer" than the other two 9s?



From my two plays, both starting with the Wild Burro nine, things definitely seemed to "ratchet up a notch" following the turn onto either the Tortolita or Saguaro.

I thought the course was similar to the other Nicklaus designs I've played - which means I found it to be a fairly stern test, especially with approach shots.  My first visit in an AGA event played from the 6800 yard markers left me with a lot of long iron/hybrid/fw wood approaches and I suffered a brutal beatdown.  For me, this is a textbook "play it forward" course and with my more recent visit, I played from the 6300 yard tees, still pretty tough.  

I thought the greens were fun.


Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 03:03:30 PM »
Considering the number of really good, non-private options there are in the Continental U.S. for dead-of-winter golf trips where you're certain that it will be pretty warm -- i.e., not that many -- Dove Mtn definitely looks worth a trip.  
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:53:43 PM by Carl Nichols »

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 03:52:14 PM »
Tee-to-green, it's like most other Nicklaus courses in the desert ... very tough, lots of carries required off the tee and plenty of holes with washes to carry on a second or third shot. Some holes with good strategic options, some with loss, some really severe places you don't want to be.

But the greens are unlike any I have seen. Far more sloped than the impression you get on TV.

I'm personally a big fan of the course. For me, it's probably the prettiest in all of the Arizona dessert. It's in a great location and, other than the clubhouse, there are no homes around it, or really even much in the line of sight on most holes.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 04:06:08 PM »
Matt Ginella wrote about Dove Mountain last year.  He spoke to Chet Williams from team Nicklaus about the greens:


What caused the tour players trouble were the severe undulations in Dove Mountain's greens. "Jack knew going in that the course was going to be used for the Match Play," says Chet Williams, a Nicklaus Design senior associate. "So it's safe to say he juiced the greens a bit."

Some felt Nicklaus went too far in his defense of par. Shortly after the first Match Play at Dove Mountain, the tour asked him to come back to make some of the pin areas larger and soften some of the slopes on the putting surfaces. "I don't know that the untrained eye would notice the difference," Williams says, but in 2010, more pros approved.


More pros approved? It's all relative.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-travel/buddies/2011-02/away-game-tucson
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 04:10:04 PM »
That seems right to me. There are plenty of relatively flat spots on those greens. But they are very large greens so if you're 40 feet away you might have to go over some roller coaster bumps to find the flatter section where the hole is.

Also, these are the best pros in the world and it's a match play tourney, so sure the Tour is going to put a few pins right on the edge of false front or really tucked into corners.

Andy Ryall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 07:02:28 PM »
The complaints from the professional ranks are really not surprising given the lack of imaginative players out there.  Sure they look it as a cartoonish, mini-putt course given the contouring of the greens.   To me, it would be a tough track to appreciate on a one and done golf trip but think it would be a blast to play on a regular basis.



jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »
The complaints from the professional ranks are really not surprising given the lack of imaginative players out there.  Sure they look it as a cartoonish, mini-putt course given the contouring of the greens.   To me, it would be a tough track to appreciate on a one and done golf trip but think it would be a blast to play on a regular basis.




It's more fun when you win....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 09:47:17 AM »
On a somewhat related note...but I'm just realizing this morning they changed the format for match play.

No more 36 hole finals....as both semis and finals are on Sunday now....

For whatever its worth, I think its a change for the best.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 12:21:22 PM »
I'm headed here for a tournament in June. I think it's going to be pretty fun. But I think it might be a pretty tough stroke play course! I've noticed this week how many times the guys have been out of play/in their pockets.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 12:36:07 PM »
The complaints from the professional ranks are really not surprising given the lack of imaginative players out there.  Sure they look it as a cartoonish, mini-putt course given the contouring of the greens.   To me, it would be a tough track to appreciate on a one and done golf trip but think it would be a blast to play on a regular basis.




It's more fun when you win....

I think this is a big part of the pros' reaction. All but one walk (well, two, if you count the consolation match) away after a loss -- a good showing for the week, perhaps, and a lot of money, but rather than a top-ten or top-five finish, they head to the airport because another guy beat them.

I'd be interested in a mini-poll among the event's winners. I'll be they like the course.

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »
Rick,
Granted, you don't get the top 10 or top 5 logged onto your career stats, but entry alone is a positive 'stat' and it's not a total loss for the players as they do rack up FedEx and world ranking points, even if they walk away on the first day.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2012, 03:42:26 PM »
I saw a little bit of today's semifinals on the television, so I am really in no place to judge, but it seemed to me that this was a course that offered options: you could do this or you could do that. Is that, perhaps, the choice that the golden oldies offered us?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2012, 03:47:17 PM »
The complaints from the professional ranks are really not surprising given the lack of imaginative players out there.  Sure they look it as a cartoonish, mini-putt course given the contouring of the greens.   To me, it would be a tough track to appreciate on a one and done golf trip but think it would be a blast to play on a regular basis.




It's more fun when you win....

I think this is a big part of the pros' reaction. All but one walk (well, two, if you count the consolation match) away after a loss -- a good showing for the week, perhaps, and a lot of money, but rather than a top-ten or top-five finish, they head to the airport because another guy beat them.

I'd be interested in a mini-poll among the event's winners. I'll be they like the course.



I've only played 5-6 desert courses and did not care for them.
However,(from only a TV look) this course looks a lot better to than any of the TOUR desert courses I've seen on TV.
Strategy, interesting greens etc.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2012, 04:47:45 PM »
Seems to be a dogleg left bias.  It is almost as if the guy who did the routing liked to hit a power fade. :'(
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 01:56:56 PM »
Seems to be a dogleg left bias.  It is almost as if the guy who did the routing liked to hit a power fade. :'(

It's less-slanted to Nicklaus' left-to-right ball flight than many other designs of his that I have played.

To wit:

1: No real movement needed on the drive. Second shot favors R-to-L
2: Favors a R-to-L drive and a L-to-R second shot. Good hole.
3: L-to-R is really the only way to come in at the green.
4: Tons of options off the tee, a huge bomber would favor R-to-L. Second shot is just a wedge, not much movement necessary.
5: R-to-L tee shot.
6: L-to-R approach to par 3 green.
7: L-to-R tee shot, second depends on where the hole is located.
8: Some slight advantage to a L-to-R tee shot, maybe.
9: L-to-R off the tee, R-to-L approach.
10: R-to-L tee shot is favored.
11: Not sure the tee shot favors one or the other. If going for it in two, R-to-L is preferred.
12: Depends on pin placement.
13: L-to-R tee shot and second shot preferred.
14: R-to-L approach preferred.
15: Not much advantage to one or the other.
16: R-to-L par 3.
17: L-to-R tee shot, L-to-R approach, usually.
18: Not much advantage off tee, maybe a slight L-to-R bias. R-to-L approach.

So, for drives you have 4 holes that favor a right-to-left shot and 4 that favor a left-to-right shot, to varying degrees.

For approaches, 6 favor a right-to-left, 5 favor left-to-right.

Pretty even.

John Foley

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Re: Dove Mountain
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 02:18:31 PM »
Not sure why the lack of love for Dove Mt. I am very biased as I love the desert and the architecture here is very good. I thought the greens we're tough but not over the top (played last year after the re-do).

Given the wide open nature of the site, any wind will increase the difficulty significantly which is a good thing, right?
Integrity in the moment of choice