Dick Wilson vs RT Jones

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

If given a choice between Wilson's top half dozen courses and those of Jones which would you choose to play? What are their top six designs?

In comparing the two architects careers, Jones reputation is clearly greater and Jones no doubt had a hell of a lot more opportunities for greatness, but who had the better batting average?

[TEPaul]

Good questions but the one on the top six, personally I couldn't say since I haven't seen all that much RTJ (there sure is a ton of it!).

But on the second question of their carreer inventories and who had the better batting average, no question in my mind it had to have been Wilson. It's real hard with a production amount like RTJ to keep the quality up but according to C&W even when Wilson was at the height of his popularity he apparently put an unusual amount of time into each project!

I understand that Wilson died a bit prematurely, maybe due to the sauce but what he did was exceptionally high quality throughout of the ones I've seen.

It appears Wilson did about twice the number of original designs as his former boss, William Flynn, but Wilson's might have been as consistently solid as Flynn's--one of the most consistently high quality careers ever, in my opinon! It appears Wilson did sixty some originals compared to thirty some for Flynn.

Wilson may have been an architect who spanned the two distinct eras really well too--maybe as well as anyone! It seems like he kept really solid designs and design features going that seemed to evolve well right out of the former era into the new era.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Dick Wilson did my home club, Oakbourne CC in Lafayette, la. It has been a top 5 course since the mid 1950's when it was built. Unfortunately, the green were reone in the mid 1980's by lee and we have lost a little to the Dick Wilson there, but not in the general strategy of the course. It was interesting the Art Hills while riding around the course with me last week noted both the original disigner and the he could not have done the greens within 2 holes. I do believe if this course was in the NY metro area, it would recieve some general dicussion by the group.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

It would seem as much as RTJ would have the underwhelming batting average I would choose his six.

Not including redesigns (for either) I cannot say I have seen a huge amount of either.  Of Wilson's courses I have seen the several, but not Laurel, which people seem to like.

RTJ, I guess I have seen some of his best work and would be interested to see more.  Between Mauna Kea, The Dunes, Peachtree and so on, I think you could come with six very solid RTJ designs.

What would the six best Wilson designs be?

If you include the renovation work, between Seminole and the others, it would appear that that would be first choice over RTJ's work.

[Ran Morrissett]

First, for sake of this argument, I am going to ignore the Seminoles and Oakland Hills and other such works by each architect and concentrate instead on their original designs (or at least designs that were complete gut jobs over exisiting courses).

So....what are Wilson's best efforts?! Heck if I know!

Pine Tree, NCR, Meadowbrook on Long Island, Deepdale, Laurel Valley, Coldstream, Cog Hill and Royal Montreal? Is that right? I am not sure in the least.

One thing about Wilson: I've never been impressed by his sets of par threes.

What are RTJ's best? The Dunes, Greenville CC, Spyglass, Point O'Woods, Valderramma (I guess), Mauna Kea, Ballybunion New has plenty of appeal relative to a standard, non-descript inland course, what else?

[BillV]

Anyone in FL this winter needs to try to play DW's WPB CC.  If you can get on it is nearly free to play!  The routing survives, the details aren't 100%, but you get a good feel for the man.

WIlson generally feels less contrived and manufactured even though at first glance the style of the times (1960's especially) tends to blur the line between the two to the uninitiated.  

Anyone know the impending future for Deepdale?  Any change in the plans to scrap the place?  I want to play there next year.  Reach me at the e-mail and we'll arrange a good trade.

[MTWilkinson]

Dick Wilson vs. RTJ's Top 6 each?  Here's a try:

RTJ:
1.  Spyglass Hill
2.  Peachtree
3.  Mauna Kea
4.  Point O'Woods
5.  Greenville Chanticleer
6.  Dunes

Honorable Mention: Eugene CC (albeit a complete redesign; Wilmington South; Firestone South (albeit a complete redesign); Old Warson; Crag Burn; Bellerive

Wilson:
1.  Pine Tree
2.  Laurel Valley
3.  Bay Hill (albeit now largely Palmer-Seay)
4.  Meadow Brook
5.  Cog Hill
6.  Coldstream

Honorable Mention: La Costa (Original); Doral Blue (before or after or after again Ray Floyd's bunkers); BallenIsles JDM East (old PGA); Deepdale (I don't know anybody but Doak who's seen it)

The nod, in my opinion, weighs significantly towards RTJ.  Spyglass and Peachtree are Top 30 courses, Mauna Kea is still the best in Hawaii, the Dunes is still the best in Myrtle Beach, and whoever said that Greenville is a real "hidden gem" is right on the money.  

On Wilson's side, Pine Tree is better than anyone on this site is willing to give it credit for.  As far as strategic golf on a dead flat site, before it became de rigeur to move heaven and earth from 1990 on (e.g., Shadow Creek),  I'd be hard pressed for ANY architect, dead or alive, to do better than that course.  Laurel Valley also remains a real fine test and neat place.

The damning thing on Wilson is his redesign work:  RTJ established the benchmark of the USGA championship test, while Wilson (and Joe Lee and Von Hagge) carpet-bombed Scioto  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

MT,
Do you think Mauna Kea is better then Princeville?  

Have you played Princeville, because for me it is not close.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Interesting note Ran, the par three's are the weak point of our Dick Wilson course. Only 2 of the 4 are real strong holes.

[MTWilkinson]

Ben:

Which Princeville?  The original 27 is beautiful '70s resort course, with the obligatory ocean Par-3, but it's not close to Mauna Kea.

If you mean The Prince, there can be an argument.  The difference between Mauna Kea and The Prince, in my opinion, is that although The Prince has some of the most arresting holes anywhere in golf (6,7,12,13,15 all come to mind), there are some real clunkers (2 - horrible layup tee shot, forced carry 2nd shot, mundane short 3rd, bad fairway bunkering on 4, bad green on 17).  Moreover, the course feels like it's one long cart path, the flow of the course is never established because you are hopscotching around.

Mauna Kea, on the other hand, is the one course in Hawaii where when you drive in you feel like you're at a golf club, instead of a resort, and every hole is solid, championship quality golf, even if you don't agree with all of the design decisions.  I don't think there's a bad or mediocre hole on the property, and several world-class ones (3, 11, and the unheralded par-5 17th).

Mauna Kea will be replaced as the best course in Hawaii, though, this year when Hokuli'a opens (south of the airport on the Big Island).  Designed by Nicklaus, it has more strategy (wide fairways with multiple options), interesting green complexes (greens range from 3000 s.f. to 12,000 s.f.(!) with endless short game options) than anything I can remember him doing, all with unbelievable ocean vistas on every hole.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I was not referring to the original course at Princeville, though it always seems to do well in the rankings.

In my opinion though I have not played Mauna Kea in five years is that it is still well behind the Prince course as the best course in Hawaii.

I was very underwhelmed by Mauna Kea with the exception being the 3rd hole.  

As for Prince I will grant you that the 17th green is bad, though 2 disagree with, 3 is not as thrilling as seven, but definitely not mundane.  As for the fourth I am drawing a blank on which fairway bunkering you are talking about, all of it?  The left side?

Anyway, I will have to think on Mauna Kea's holes, but I played both of those courses twice in the same week and have been back to the Prince for four more visits.  I am interested to hear your points though, because all the people I know in Hawaii much prefer the Prince.

Different strokes for different folks.

[jim_lewis]

I've had some difficulty arriving at my choice of the 6 best Wilson and RTJ courses I have PLAYED:

I offer the following, in no particular order:

Jones:

Eugene
Greenville-Chanticleer
Spyglass
Dunes
Bellrive
Old Warson
Honorable mention: Pauma Valley, Metedeconk, Atlanta AC-Highlands(before Rees's redo), Golden Horseshoe.

Wilson:

Laurel Valley
NCR
Coldstream
Pine Tree
Bay Hill (before Arnie)
La Costa
Honorable mention: Doral-Blue, Callaway Gardens-Mounainview,Jekyll Island-Oleander, Fincastle

Overall, I give the nod to Jones.

[Bill_McBride]

It's interesting trying to figure out six great or even good RTJ courses and Dick Wilson courses.  How many RTJ courses are there, 500?  Seems to me that is the reason most people who visit this site would prefer to be playing or even talking about Pasatiempo!  My memory of Doral Blue is very distinct...a whole land of sand with a flag sticking up out of it here and there!  Very little variety. Big greens.  Aircraft carrier tees.  

[MTWilkinson]

Ben:

I MADE A MISTAKE.  I FORGOT ABOUT THE PLANTATION COURSE (Coore and Crenshaw).  IT'S THE BEST IN THE ISLANDS BAR NONE.  The reason I forgot is that I usually either go to the Big Island or Kauai and have only been on Maui once to play that windswept masterpiece.

But back to my stating that Mauna Kea is better than The Prince, which I also am emphatic about:

I'm not saying I don't like The Prince, because I do, but what I'm saying is that it has more flaws than Mauna Kea.

There isn't a hole at MK that I walk off saying "why did he do this?" whereas at The Prince I do.  Think about this, two of your first four tee to green shots are forced carries (approach on 1, 2nd shot on 2).  I'm a 3-handicap, and I played #2 from the tips (on 4 occasions) with a 3-wood lay-up tee shot, unnerving 3-wood from a downhill lie over the chasm 2nd shot, blind uphill 9-iron or wedge to the green.  That is horrible.  What does the poor 20-handicapper do?  He either tops or chunks 2 or 3 into the chasm, jumps in his cart and drops on the other side.  

A good player cannot hit driver on #4 because the fairway bunkers on the left pinch off the landing area from 240-270 off the tee with water right to about 7 yards (I paced it off).  That means that on 2 of the first 4 holes, both of which are par-5s, I can't hit driver from the back.  Come to think of it, I'm not sure driver is the call on 10 or 15 either (par 5s).  

On the other hand, I agree that The Prince has some "all-world holes" that make the overall course more memorable than MK.  Maybe then, for the vacationing golfer, it's a better "my first/only round in Hawaii course" because its more of an experience and one that you can get more excited about when you recount your round for friends when you get home.  Koolau is much along the same lines.

But think about what makes sense as a day-in, day-out championship course that has architectural interest.  MK probably comes out on top.

Ben, it also sounds like you play more in Hawaii than many of the posters on this site (judging by the threads).  I'm not overstating how good Nicklaus' Hokulia is going to be.  I saw it with 9 holes grassed and rough shaping of the rest.  If they finish it like Lyle Anderson says they are, it's going to knock some socks off.  I was told Nicklaus made over 20 site visits (it's taken 3 years to build), so whether it was his direction or whoever he had do it, there is more short game interest than anything I've seen him do.  Also, some really neat fairway options (not his standard double fairways) created by intriguing bunker placement that will require the player to work the ball and place the shots.  Interestingly, 18 is a 340 +/- par-4 suggestive of 18 at Olympic with a tiny green to match.  

It's too early to compare it to some of his better courses, but I'm sure Hokulia will be on Nicklaus' short list.

[Chris Kane]

What is a concensus about Metropolitan, a part-Wilson design in Melbourne?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

MT,
I will look forward to Hokulia, I have not been in two years, but I have played most of the major golf courses in Hawaii, I just have a real soft spot for Kauai and for the Prince, so you can't change my mind, but I know where your coming from.

Did you ever get over to Lanai?  They are the two notable absences from my Hawaii golf, I keep meaning to go, if only it was 11 hours away.

What is the finish date for Hokulia?

[John_Conley]

For all of the romantic remaniscing about the courses from the golden age, this post draws attention to the fact that no one longs for the courses these guys did.  (in general terms... I know the best of their best is worthy of a visit.)

I've always presumed that Dick Wilson's designs are mostly void of strategy from what I watch on TV.  The TOUR has used some of his designs quite a lot over the years.

One thing they both deserve credit for is having the foresight to design courses much longer than they needed to be with the intention of being long enough for tournament golf in the future, something the Roaring 20s guys unfortunately didn't do as well.  (IMHO, I can't say I know for sure how long they "stood up" since it predates me.)

[Steve Okula]

You guys probably don't get over to Europe much, but RT Jones is highly regarded here, and Dick Wilson is unknown. So RT gets points for that.

In Spain, for example, Jones has Valderrama and Las Brisas, both have been rated in the top ten of Europe for the past ten years (usually Valderrama no. 1 and Las Brisas around 5).
Mind you there are a few great courses in the running.
He has dozens of other courses around the continent, all of them successful.  

Say what you will on the tenets of Jones philosophy, but from what I have seen his routings are imaginative, his strategy a challenge, the ambience sublime. What's more, and speaking as a golf course superintendent, he built courses that are management friendly, they work.