Poll: The Best Course on South Jersey Shore

[JNC Lyon]

What is the Best Course on the South Jersey Shore?

a) Atlantic City C.C.
b) Brigantine
c) Galloway National
d) Greate Bay
e) Hidden Creek
f) Seaview (Bay)
g) Twisted Dune
h) McCullough's Emerald Links
i) Other

I'd like to see and tally some votes, but, as per usual, there should be some discussion as well?

[Chris Roselle]

It's either C or E...but if I really had to choose between the two I would play Galloway 4 times a week and Hidden Creek 3 times a week.  Both a true tests of golf but I think Galloway wins by a nose because of some of the views you have compared to Hidden Creek.  And that's not to diminish the others on the list that are also very good and have some excellent views as well. 

[John Shimony]

I have not played all of the good courses down there but I think Hidden Creek would top the list.  I have not played the course but walked it during a GAP Patterson Cup.

Of those I've played or walked:
1) Hidden Creek
2) Atlantic City
3) Galloway National
4) Greate Bay
5) Twisted Dune

I have not played Seaview.  Brigantine is not near the top for me.  I remember some pretty dull holes there but I haven't played it in a few years.  McCulloughs would get an honorable mention.  Shore Gate has some nice holes but some clunkers if I recall.  I've played Blue Heron and Sand Barrens but I do not remember enough about them.  I've played Wildwood but I'm not a fan.

[Jason Walker]

I agree with Chris on the split between Galloway and HC

If I had to rank order:

Galloway
HC
Twisted Dune
ACCC
Greate Bay
Seaview

Galloway, despite what some may consider an awkward routing, has the greater number of quality holes, some being spectacular.  I love HC as a complete golf course, however many of the holes blend together for me.

[Michael Blake]

Archie's Twisted Dune is a whole-lotta fun, but my vote goes to Hidden Creek.

Though this thread is for best 'South Jersey Shore' course, I'd guess Hollywood for best 'North Jersey Shore' course.  Perhaps that's for another thread.

[JeffTodd]

Atlantic City is my favorite course in the area. Of the courses I've played I would probably rank them:

Atlantic City
Hidden Creek
Seaview Bay
Twisted Dune
Vineyard
Sea Oaks
Sand Barrens
Seaview Pines
McCulloughs
Blue Heron
Shore Gate
Ballamor
Brigantine
Atlantis
Harbor Pines
Mays Landing

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I played some of those courses so this is from recollection. 

[JNC Lyon]

Brigantine behind Shore Gate?  I had someone tell me this weekend that Shore Gate is Doak Zero--what's the rationale for placing Brigantine behind it?

[Mike Sweeney]

Brigantine behind Shore Gate?  I had someone tell me this weekend that Shore Gate is Doak Zero--what's the rationale for placing Brigantine behind it?

Honestly, this is a silly statement:

0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Is Shore Gate over bunkered, over ponded, and overly penal? Yes. As the Jersey Shore market got overbuilt, each course represented an "advancement" over the last course to be built, and sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not.

Cut through the trees, Sand Barrens and then Shore Gate tried to be the "public Pine Valley", and neither succeeded. That said, they are both worth playing and I would put Shore Gate over Sand Barrens as I think Sand Barrens lost some character when they put in the third 9.

Assuming Mike Cirba was your source, please consider his criticisms of Merion over the years here on GCA. I once asked him his favorite course when we were playing and he stated "Merion"!! I have been here way too long but you need to read between the lines. 

I am one of the bigger fans of Stiles and Van Kleek courses but other than being in the same vicinity, there is not much comparison between the Brigantine and Shore Gate.

No GCA nut should miss playing the now watered-down version of Stone Harbor. Gib Papazian once drove from NYC down the Garden State past many "famous clubs" to play Stone Harbor. No Doak 8's at The Shore, but it has quite a collection of Doak 5-7's on sandy soil.

[David_Tepper]

A general question (from an old North Jersey Shore guy) - how payable are the South Jersey Shore courses thru an average winter (assuming there is such a thing)?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

You could play all winter long this winter season

[archie_struthers]

 


GALLOWAY.   

I think Galloways combination of beauty and challenge make it the best course at the Jersey Shore for good players.  The design really sets up well to the eye, which is a charcteristic most great course tend to have in common.  It is too hard for most players who can't break 90 , as some of the shots really require quality ball striking. The greens , when fast are also quite difficult for all but the expert player.

Can't comment further due to inherent prejudice lol!

[Mark McKeever]

Great topic John. 

My top three picks would be as follows

Atlantic City
Galloway Nat'l
Twisted Dune

Having only played the back 9 and loving every bit of it, I really want to play the other 9 holes at Brigantine.  If the front is anything like the back, it may be one of the most underrated courses down at the shore.

Mark

[JNC Lyon]

Mike Sweeney,

Your post is making great waves through the golf course architecture community.  A response, courtesy of Mr. Mike Cirba:

"Shore Gate IS a Doak Scale "0", under any objective measure.   The architects threw everything but the kitchen sink into every shot and every hole of the course, and it's so over-the-top bad that it will definitely corrupt someone's mind in terms of architecture.   If Mike thinks I'm hyperbolic, using Merion as an example, then I would counter by saying that in the case of Shore Gate, I'm understating the case.   If Mike thinks I'm biased somehow against Shore Gate, then perhaps he should solicit the opinions of Matt Ward or Bill Vostinak, both of whom shared a round of golf over that course with me.   By the back nine we were in hysterics, and I can recommend the course in the sense that if someone is hopeless and morose, it may induce healing uncontrollable laughter, especially when one discovers the alien hieroglyphics posing as bunkers on the back nine.

"Brigantine, on the other hand, is a personal favorite of mine, but I'm not able to objectively rate the course as there is too much sentimenality involved for me.   As a teen, our family vacationed there each year, and I played that course with my dad and brothers every day during those weeks.   I'm really glad to hear that you guys enjoyed it.

"As regards Mike's comments on Merion, I recall him asking me my favorite course, which for reasons both functional and sentimental I answered "Merion".   That does not mean that I think it's the "best course", and I go back and forth whether the ongoing changes have placed it outside even my Top 10 "Best" courses.   I'm scheduled to stop by for a look sometime next week to see the newest round of changes, and based on what I'm hearing, I'm not hopeful.   The bunker work that was done there, that I criticized rather vehemently back in the glory days of GCA, still sucks, and is only saved by a superintendent who struggles to keep them looking something like their ragged old selves.    Those who fought the power back then were still correct, and are still correct today as the course is morphed into something the USGA will approve of.  The sad truth is that even with all of this major surgery if the course is soft the pros will eat it up.   That's ok...Merion was never great because it was a ball-buster; it was great because it was infinitely interesting and endlessly varied."

[Bill Crane]

My list includes:
Galloway Natl
Atlantic City
Hidden Creek
Seaview  - Pines

Special mention hidden public gem when in decent shape:   Buena Vista - 45 mins inland.

[Mike Sweeney]

John,

Ask Mike who wrote this!! From 2002!

_______________________________

"I would never dissuade anyone from playing anywhere, and my opinions I've stated here are only one person's impression.

In fact, I'd love for you to play Shore Gate, and I encourage others here to do the same.  It is certainly something to be seen by anyone with an interest in golf course architecture.

In my mind, it represents a sort of extreme that I think is ballsy, and somewhat indicative of a very real trend in golf course architecture in the new millenium, which I see as a penal reaction to changes in technology, a desire to be noticed as "spectacular" in a competitive business environment, and certainly provides all the challenge anyone might ever want.

It also tries to appeal to the visual senses, with LOTS of eye-poppingly intimidating features.  

Although I'd also highly recommend that you play Twisted Dune, as Geoffrey suggests, I hope you have time to play both.  I'd love to hear others thoughts on Shore Gate, because if someone thinks it's a rare anomaly, I assure you it's not.  "Shore Gates" are being built all across the land, and I don't see the forces driving ultra-difficult, visually controversial and conversational courses diminishing anytime soon.  

It's part of a trend that I think will grow, whether you love it or hate it.  

 

________________________

PS. Mike is on my Facebook page. We will see tonight if I am still there!!

Bill aka Redanman stated:


"I will only add that Shoregate is a course that is excessive and overdone to a point rarely seen, but not to be avoided unless you play it and you don't like it.  It is quite controversial and a propos the thoughts regarding a split in what constitutes "good" or the future of architecture-a great point of discussion."

[Joe Bausch]

I think a visit to Shore Gate with camera in hand is needed this Sunday.  Cabin Fever cure part 7!   

[Kyle Harris]

No list complete without Macullough's, in my opinion. It's probably not the top course (I'd give the nod to Hidden Creek but have not played Galloway, nor Atlantic City), but I would split rounds between Macullough's and it's neighbor Twisted Dunes 6-4 (on some days 7-3) in favor of Macullough's.

Played ShoreGate way back in 2006, don't remember much but it's very disorienting in the wrong sort of way. Might be a place where some calculated and benign neglect goes a long way into presenting the "good" of the place in a better light.

Galloway will likely be a very tough sell for me due, in part, to some of the previous discussion here. A general red flag for me is when the consensus opinion is a bit of shock over some form of misconstrued strategic value and Galloway has received such press numerous times.

Seeing some of those old posts and opinions reminds me of how far down this site has become. Man, for a time when Redanman was erudite!

P.S. Mike Cirba:

Come back. And stop with the Pine Valley/Merion stuff.

[archie_struthers]

  , ??

  Don't know how you can argue given Galloway 's inherent advantages with  all the elevation change, views , and yes condtioning . There are at least five or six outstanding holes , starting with the first  .  I realize some of the greens are over the top, but if you spend some quality time there, particularly early morning or twilight, the beauty of the golf course shines thru.


I know that it's been en vogue to trash Fazio here in the past , but  it can't blind you to the fact that there is a lot of  interesting quirk here also, starting with number two. One of the hardest short par threes in the GAP when the wind is blowing.  The par threes are varied and difficult. .  The five pars are easy!

You have very, very interesting greens, with #"'s 2, 3 andd 14 having issues, but all in all there is a lot of detail and plenty of interesting movement. The closing stretch is strong and it rewards quality shots and good management . The course isn't overly long, but rewards distance properly applied.

Perhaps Galloway doesn't fulfill its promise but it's still very good, and hard to diss as anything but a true experience in shotmaking and putting. It might not be an everyday course for the masses, but for one day it's the most unique experience down here!

[Jerry Kluger]

I think Galloway and Hidden Creek are the best with Atlantic City next.  The sleeper is Sea Oaks. 

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Galloway over ACCC. I really need to check out Seaview and Twisted Dune...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JNC,

Isn't Galloway difficult to play in the summer due to the bug issue ?

I recall being eaten alive on a few occasions and now confine play to early Spring or late Fall

Seaview, Pines, prior to the hotel altering some holes was an OUTSTANDING golf course.
It's still very good.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Golloway's too tough for me to enjoy.  I'll take Hidden Creek and Twisted Dunes anytime.

[archie_struthers]

   


Kyle, I'm interested in the basis for your "misconstrued strategic value " opine re: Galloway ?   

 Pat , the green heads can be quite nasty indeed !  But they don't bite true believers lol!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I think Galloway and Hidden Creek are the best with Atlantic City next.  The sleeper is Sea Oaks. 

Jerry, 

  Hidden Creek and ACCC have to be up there.  I haven't played Galloway, so I won't comment.  I played Sea Oaks a few times, and I felt that it's an example of where it could have been so much more than it is.  More later.

[JNC Lyon]

A response to Messrs. Sweeney and Harris from Mike Cirba:

Mike Sweeney,

I'm very glad you posted my 2002 reply about Shore Gate and I stand by every word I wrote both then and now.   In thinking about it, I guess my view of the Doak Scale slightly differs from Tom's intent in that while I would never recommend that average golfer to go play there, much less a friend, I would recommend that those interested in golf course architecture go there, because seeing courses at the extremes help to fill out one's architectural knowledge.   I'm a firm believer that the only way to truly appreciate greatness in design is to experience the opposite extreme.   Now, over the years I've played a lot of golf courses of all sorts, almost 900, but there are likely more Hardpan Heights in their than Cypress Points.   That's ok, and I wouldn't change a thing.

Of all of those courses, a very small handful stand out to me as dreadful, not so much for conditioning or limited budget and intent, but because they sought to be something they are clearly not, and dramatically so.   They not only failed, they failed remarkably, and with something approaching humor if looked at with a sense of irony.   Shore Gate is among them, in that rare category with Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge, TPC at Jasna Polana, and so on.

In the case of Shore Gate, as I mentioned back then, it is so extreme and over the top, literally screaming for attention at every turn, that I found it indicative of a market that I wrote back then was over-building, and headed for a sure come-uppance with any economic downturn.   I did not see how the course was remotely maintainable at any reasonable cost, and sadly, I think a number of CCFAD type courses have been realizing the folly of this type of extreme architecture since the market imploded.

I'm hoping that some of the guys get to Shore Gate, because it's interesting to me to compare notes, and discuss why we think it is worthy of such an ignoble honor or not.   I also think it helps to round out one's golf course education.

Please also rest assured that we remain Facebook friends, and real life ones, as well. 

Kyle,

Thanks, but I believe in term limits.   GCA has been largely great for me, and I love most of you guys,  but a decade is enough.   Once some of the other Philly guys left, I became a target for a few, and thanks, but no thanks.   Hoping to get to Florida this December.