[DMoriarty]

You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John.  Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say.  From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him.  Even you must realize this.  

[DMoriarty]

With that pin and their ability to stick an 85-yard wedge, I'm really surprised nobody ALL DAY hit a 220-yard shot left of the fairway bunkers.   Phil and Keegan both proved a green side tee shot to the right doesn't work.  Haas played a very smart shot.  

The birdies on 18 were the best moment I've seen on tour in a long time!

I don't know about "nobody all day".  Earlier in the week they mentioned that 55% of the golfers laid up.   That is down from 69% in 2004, but still it is a substantial percentage.

[Bill_McBride]

With that pin and their ability to stick an 85-yard wedge, I'm really surprised nobody ALL DAY hit a 220-yard shot left of the fairway bunkers.   Phil and Keegan both proved a green side tee shot to the right doesn't work.  Haas played a very smart shot.  

The birdies on 18 were the best moment I've seen on tour in a long time!

I don't know about "nobody all day".  Earlier in the week they mentioned that 55% of the golfers laid up.   That is down from 69% in 2004, but still it is a substantial percentage.

I was referring o today, Sunday, when I think I heard nobody laid up.   

[Will MacEwen]

I recall Mike Weir laying up in a playoff and winning - I think he beat Howell, who went for it.

Bill, I think it is still a pretty treacherous wedge shot, even for these guys. I do agree that it seems like more should try it though.

[Sam Morrow]

Is it possible to lay-up and then play a wedge out short left 15 feet and leave yourself a putt at it? I guess because I'm a short hitter the hole plays easier for me, I know I'm not getting close.

[John Kavanaugh]

You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John.  Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say.  From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him.  Even you must realize this.  

Yes David, it is great in spite of him and the current ownership. It isn't always as easy as it looks to be given the world and not screw it up. The only thing he could have done better was to do nothing at all. We get it.

Btw.  I drove the tenth green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.

That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.

It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?

[JR Potts]

I found it great strategy to drive the 11th tee.  Made birdie...

It's a great hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

JakaB doesn't understand the inherent difference between medal and match play and the respective strategies involved.

Bad or inaccurate drives were the problem.

I suspect all three were trying to hit their tee shots into the bunker.

[DMoriarty]

I was referring o today, Sunday, when I think I heard nobody laid up.   

I don't have the total numbers but definitely a number of golfers laid up.  For example, I just checked a few groups and I see that Luke Donald laid up and birdied, and YE Yang and Adam Scott laid up and parred.   Kevin Na laid up and took a seven -- 2nd into front bunker, 3rd over back right, 4th on, three putts.  (This might have had something to do with the slightly higher scoring average for this who laid up.)  
___________________________________

Patrick,  Depending on the golfer, I am not so sure I agree with you about the layup being "horrendous strategy."
____________________________________

John. Nice posturing, but as bereft of substance as your pro-Fazio cheerleading.  Let me ask you again the same question you skirted on the other thread:  Do the changes honor the aesthetics and playing characteristics of the original design?  

[John Kavanaugh]

David, I do not honor or dismiss the past, I play my ball where it lies.

[DMoriarty]

No you don't.  If you did you'd not annually regale us with your mindless cheerleading.

[George Pazin]

Can you really call one-sided analysis playing it where it lies?

[Ronald Montesano]

Keegan was quoted on the hole being somewhat unfair (not completely unfair, mind you.) That, in my mind, gives it greatness potential.

Is there a better playoff sequence on the PGA Tour than 18-10 at Riviera? Could you have two more diverse holes that call for similar (up the left) placement? Two better holes, anywhere, that are regularly used as such?

Patrick, define the layup...since these guys can pretty much zipper anything outside of 30 yards, couldn't they get a ball within 100 yards of the green, in the fairway, and hit it to where Haas did or closer?

Was there any difference in firmness between front, middle and back sections of the putting surface?

Bruce Campbell's quote about spies being "bitchy little girls" in the opening to Burn Notice has nothing on this thread.

[James Bennett]

Kevin Na laid up and took a seven -- 2nd into front bunker, 3rd over back right, 4th on, three putts.

I can relate to this.  That bunker shot to a back right pin is undelievably difficult.  The difficulty is not apparent to you until you get to the ball, and look at the pin and the green falling away from you.  If you can't land your sandshot onto the front fringe, you are in the back bunker.

Perhaps some astute golfers will play away from the pin towards the front left - also steeply downhill.

Honestly, the second last place you want to be on 10 to a back right pin is in the sand just in front of the pin (the last place would be perhaps 5 yards short of that bunker).

James B

[Kevin Pallier]

Are the short trees / bushes left of the green its primary defense against the long hitter?

Bogey

Bogey

I thimk its more than that - the combination of the type of grass, green narrowness, and angles will continually pose questions for both the long and short hitters. I love the hole.

[Mac Plumart]

You should really give this Fazio garbage a rest, John.  Every year it is the same crap, yet when it comes to any actual substantive discussion about the merits of the changes, you slink away with nothing relevant to say.  From what I can tell, the course is great despite Fazio, not because of him.  Even you must realize this.  

Yes David, it is great in spite of him and the current ownership. It isn't always as easy as it looks to be given the world and not screw it up. The only thing he could have done better was to do nothing at all. We get it.

Btw.  I drove the tenth green.

Idiot.  You should have laid up. 

 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.

That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.

It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?

Granted the green was very firm.  However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

[George Pazin]

...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?

Just curious, thought you might know.

[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20, for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! ]

[Jim Nugent]

George, pretty sure Davis lost in a playoff to Couples back in the early 90s, on #10 IIRC. 

[Bill_McBride]

Laying up is a horrendous strategy with the firmness of the green and hole location today.

That's why these guys are PGA Tour Pros winning millions and you're monday morning quarterbacks making comments after the outcome.

It's a terrific hole, but then again, are there many bad holes with diagonal greens that are well protected by bunkers ?

Granted the green was very firm.  However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

Laying up couldn't have been worse than Phil's tee shot.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?

Just curious, thought you might know.


It was the 12th hole.  As far as I know it is still a hazard.  Love made a 7 and I think it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.

[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20, for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! ]

It was the 12th hole.  As far as I know it is still a hazard.  I believe he made 7 and it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.

[George Pazin]

...However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

Lynn, there is a not-well-known book that follows DLIII day by day through this tourney - I think it's called Through The Green or something like that - and in it, Davis describes the 10th as having a barranca, and indeed there was a rules question as to whether or not he grounded his club in it. Where is this area he described? Have they change the maintenance practices so that it's gone?

Just curious, thought you might know.


It was the 12th hole.  As far as I know it is still a hazard.  Love made a 7 and I think it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.

[This is the book ==> http://www.amazon.com/Through-Green-Mind-Professional-Golfer/dp/0312093632/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1329751522&sr=8-20, for those interested. Please don't buy all the copies, I got mine from the library and plan on buying one! ]

It was the 12th hole.  As far as I know it is still a hazard.  I believe he made 7 and it was the same year he lost in a playoff to Freddie.

Thanks, Lynn, I thought you would know.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I too find a hole with so many options, so short yet so able to get scores from eagle to double bogie so easy remarkable in its design.  It is even better for we mere mortals who have that first set of traps to figure into our plan.

[George Freeman]

Would have loved to have seen Haas lay up after the first two hit.

Sven - he did, on his approach.

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