WGC - Dove Mountain OUT, so who's IN?

[Mark Pearce]

Would Streamsong be able to handle to corporate tents and crowd access?

At sub 7,200 yards, those guys would destroy Streamsong.

Would that matter in matchplay?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

MWP,
Mexico (Cabo del Sol Ocean) could be a contender. It's close to the "West Coast Swing" and sort of on the way to Florida.

So we trade one crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert for another crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert...with great ocean views and delicious fish tacos 

I'm all in!

[BHoover]

So we trade one crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert for another crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert...with great ocean views and delicious fish tacos  

Please explain to us exactly what is crappy about Dove Mountain?  I see an interesting course that is a good fit for match play.  What am I not seeing? I hope there is a reason for not liking it beyond the fact that it's a Nicklaus course.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Even better....two groups of 32
One group plays at CDS the other at Diamante and then a 36 hole final 18 on each course

[Ruediger Meyer]

They should not only switch the venue, they should switch the date as well. It's not very lucky to have two WGCs in the span of two weeks. When they have to overhaul the schedule (i.e. PGA Championship) because of the Olympics, they should get the Match Play another spot in the calendar which would open up more venues since days are longer and the weather is better.

[Gary Slatter]

MWP,
Mexico (Cabo del Sol Ocean) could be a contender. It's close to the "West Coast Swing" and sort of on the way to Florida.

So we trade one crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert for another crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert...with great ocean views and delicious fish tacos 

I'm all in!

Emile, are you deaf, or blind, or both?   There's a fine tournament going on right now, on a superb desert golf course, in the USA!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Emile,

Are you serious about CDS being a "crappy" course. It's generally regarded as one of Nicklaus' best courses:

◾"Top 100 Courses in the World" - Golf Magazine          1995 - Present (#97 - 2013/2014)
◾"Top 100 Golf Courses"- World List - Golf Course Architecture (#88 - 2013)
◾"Top 100 Golf Courses of the World" - Golf World UK    (#72 - 2013)
◾"Planet Golf World 100" - Planet Golf (#77 - 2013)
◾"Best 100 Courses Outside The United States"           Golf Digest, 2003 - Present (#54 - 2012/2013)
◾"Best Courses In México" - Golf Digest, GOLF Magazine

[Morgan Clawson]

I went to this tournament a couple of years ago. I thought the course looked great: wide fairways, undulating greens, peaceful setting, great views.
This format is problematic from a fan attendance standpoint. There are very few matches to watch on the weekend. It really isn't worth going after Thursday.

[Ben Kodadek]

Would Streamsong be able to handle to corporate tents and crowd access?

At sub 7,200 yards, those guys would destroy Streamsong.

Would that matter in matchplay?

I never said it would. 

[Josh Tarble]

Ben, I think the Red would hold it's own better than you think, the Blue you're probably right...and I think the pros would hate it.  Both courses would make them hit shots they aren't used to, so maybe they wouldn't totally eat up either.  I do think it would be a pretty cool venue for it, just from a spectator and TV perspective.  It doesn't seem like the crowds are crazy at Dove Mountain, so maybe SS could host it.


I did read on Geoff Shackelford this morning that the Tour is trying to get sponsorship to hold it at TPC Harding Park in SF.  Makes sense from a market perspective and I don't know enough about the course to back up his view of it being a terrible venue for match play.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/2/19/harding-park-as-a-match-play-venue-please-no.html

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

MWP,
Mexico (Cabo del Sol Ocean) could be a contender. It's close to the "West Coast Swing" and sort of on the way to Florida.

So we trade one crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert for another crappy Jack Nicklaus course in the desert...with great ocean views and delicious fish tacos 

I'm all in!

I wouldnt say that Dove Mountain is crappy as a design, but the green complexes are a nightmare.
Too fragmented and sectioned with the penalty for slightly missing the right segment disproportionate to the "miss" of the shot.
It is my understanding that is what the players generally complain about there.

[Connor Dougherty]

I did read on Geoff Shackelford this morning that the Tour is trying to get sponsorship to hold it at TPC Harding Park in SF.  Makes sense from a market perspective and I don't know enough about the course to back up his view of it being a terrible venue for match play.

Josh,
Harding will always have a soft spot in my heart (it was the first place I ever saw the pros in person at the Presidents Cup and the 3rd hole is home to my only hole in one) but it would be an awful match play venue. There's a few okay holes, with the finish being decent, but I think you could give it the same kind of reputation that is given to most of the Tour venues. I think they really missed an opportunity to make it special when they did the renovation, as TD mentioned in the Confidential Guide years back, a good restoration would have made it easily the third best course in the Bay Area, but in its current state, I'm hard pressed to put it in the top 5. Actually, it's definitely not in the top 5.

I wouldnt say that Dove Mountain is crappy as a design, but the green complexes are a nightmare.
Too fragmented and sectioned with the penalty for slightly missing the right segment disproportionate to the "miss" of the shot.
It is my understanding that is what the players generally complain about there.

I won't argue against them being fragmented (they are), but is that 100% bad? From what I can tell on TV and through the video game ANGC's greens seem pretty fragmented as well. and at the speeds they cut them for the event, they are a touch on the severe side, although the two times I played it (which was a month before the match play) they were running at about 9 and they played fantastic.

Dove Mountain isn't a world beater but by my estimation it's miles ahead of most of the courses on tour.

[BHoover]

"Change the name of the architect from Jack Nicklaus to one of the GCA favorites and I bet most of the group would be raving about Dove Mountain and it's greens." -- Sam Morrow  

Connor's right about DM.  I'm not saying it's the best possible venue for the match play, but it's a damn sight better than most of the venues on Tour.

An earlier posted mentioned taking the Match Play event abroad.  I'm all for that, just not to China or Dubai.  I have no interest in seeing this event played at one of the innumerable Mission Hills courses in China.  If you want to take it to Australia or the UK, that's all good.  But I just don't see a potential sponsor willing to take it outside the USA.  

[Sam Morrow]

Change the name of the architect from Jack Nicklaus to one of the GCA favorites and I bet most of the group would be raving about Dove Mountain and it's greens.  

Connor's right about DM.  I'm not saying it's the best possible venue for the match play, but it's a damn sight better than most of the venues on Tour.

An earlier posted mentioned taking the Match Play event abroad.  I'm all for that, just not to China or Dubai.  I have no interest in seeing this event played at one of the innumerable Mission Hills courses in China.  If you want to take it to Australia or the UK, that's all good.  But I just don't see a potential sponsor willing to take it outside the USA. 

thief

[BHoover]

Change the name of the architect from Jack Nicklaus to one of the GCA favorites and I bet most of the group would be raving about Dove Mountain and it's greens.  

Connor's right about DM.  I'm not saying it's the best possible venue for the match play, but it's a damn sight better than most of the venues on Tour.

An earlier posted mentioned taking the Match Play event abroad.  I'm all for that, just not to China or Dubai.  I have no interest in seeing this event played at one of the innumerable Mission Hills courses in China.  If you want to take it to Australia or the UK, that's all good.  But I just don't see a potential sponsor willing to take it outside the USA.  

thief

Ha ha ha     Sam, it was such a good point that I had to make it known.

Fixed my previous post to provide the proper credit.

[Jonathan Webb]

"According to various sources, the event seems poised to move to Harding Park in San Francisco in 2015. The public course hosted the 2009 Presidents Cup, and held up well in the match-play format, and is assured of drawing better crowds than the isolated Dove Mountain track.

As an aside, it hasn’t snowed in San Francisco since 1962."

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/rex-hoggard/cut-line-will-match-play-move-help-tourney/

[Sam Morrow]

Change the name of the architect from Jack Nicklaus to one of the GCA favorites and I bet most of the group would be raving about Dove Mountain and it's greens.  

Connor's right about DM.  I'm not saying it's the best possible venue for the match play, but it's a damn sight better than most of the venues on Tour.

An earlier posted mentioned taking the Match Play event abroad.  I'm all for that, just not to China or Dubai.  I have no interest in seeing this event played at one of the innumerable Mission Hills courses in China.  If you want to take it to Australia or the UK, that's all good.  But I just don't see a potential sponsor willing to take it outside the USA.  

thief

Ha ha ha     Sam, it was such a good point that I had to make it known.

Fixed my previous post to provide the proper credit.

I can't quit you.

[David_Tepper]

"Too fragmented and sectioned with the penalty for slightly missing the right segment disproportionate to the "miss" of the shot."

Michael Wharton-Palmer -

Couldn't you say the same thing about a number of the greens at Augusta National, such as #9, #13, #14 & #16?

DT

[David Panzarasa]

I think they really need to change the course for this. Not because it's good/bad, but visually on TV it's not exciting, no fans there, and like most years, the most popular people in golf aren't around for the weekend TV Viewer.
 
This year, Phil, Tiger aren't in, No Adam Scott, Rory just lost...all number 1 seeds are gone out of the gate, The most popular PGA players are not playing Friday. If this was on a more well known, or visually interesting (Diamante!?) people would stay watching and tune in on the weekend. I venture the TV Ratings will be an all time low this weekend.

I think they need to try and sell the "course" and setting more for this tournament then any other during the PGA season, which they are failing at. Maybe an ultra private country club, a new one each year people would love to see, or only public courses, etc..

[BHoover]

David, it's match play so there's always going to be the chance that the top seeds get bounced early, regardless of venue. It's also not like a 1/16 match in the NCAA tourney where the gap between a 1 seed and the 16 seed is huge. Any of the guys in the field has a realistic chance to win against anyone else. If you wan to keep the top names around for the weekend, then the Tour needs another stroke play event with no cut (just like the WGC Bridgestone Inv. at Firestone...which has a special place to me because it's my hometown's event).

So even with the inherent risk in match play of the top names getting bounced, you say a new venue is needed to gain viewers.  I don't think the golfing public will tun in simply to see a golf course. But I will entertain your idea. So what course do you suggest?

[Gary Slatter]

DoveMountain is better than most courses on the PGA Tour.   It requires the pros to hit superb iron shots, to control their ball.  Because they are all so talented, anyone can beat any other.  I have loved watching the golf, and I don't care if Tiger or Phil don't want to expose their fears.
BUT, the format could be changed, maybe stroke play Wed-Fri, then Match-play........or play it at Doral, two weeks in a row.

[Connor Dougherty]

Call me crazy, but with the renovation, Poppy Hills would be a great venue. Could attract more players to the Pro-Am if they did it back to back.

J.A.T.

[David Panzarasa]

Brian

 I totally understand and agree with you, but after I watch some of  thereplay tonight, I'm not watching again this weekend. The course just simply "looks" boring, dead on tv with little people there, and obviously everyone I'm interested in are already out. And 90% of the viewing public's favorite people to watch as well.

 Doesn't matter if the course is a great strategic one, or if it's not on GCA's top 100, if it looks boring on TV, that's an issue....especially because of this format. By the weekend you are watching 8 golfers, then 4 golfers all weekend long.....get's boring to watch.  Last year as well, was pretty boring to me (personally), I love Kutchar, but Kutchar and Hunter M., just totally boring TV (adding in the non excitement of the course and lack of people there)


So, excluding the private courses I think we all would like to see on the West Coast.  From LACC to Cal Club to SFGC, etc..
Spyglass? Rustic? Trump? Porcupine Creek would certainly be different, Bandon?, Shadow Creek!?, Diamante (would be visially great on TV, as I remember it from the WorldGolf Championships..or whatever they were called, and then add the second course into the mix and could be really interesting),  Maybe something back in Hawaii on the ocean since its on the West Coast still,

Not sure. If they could move this to another part of the year, then that opens up the floodgates for places.

Just thinking to myself, the ratings will be pretty bad this weekend, thankfully for the PGA Football/Baseball aren't on. I think they need to get more creative with this tournament.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

Harding Park is the leading contender. See posts above. Finchem will address the issue on Sunday. Stay tuned but the first thing that needs to happen is to find a $9M sponsor if Accenture drops out. The sponsor has the final say.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tune in this April according to Tim Finchem:

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/02/23/finchem-accenture-match-play-future.html