The wildest classic era greens still in existence?

[Wade Schueneman]

I agree with #1 at Aiken

1 at NGLA is astounding (as is #3)

13 at Crystal Downs

3 at The Machrie

2 at Machrihanish (as Tom mentioned)

16 at North Berwick (as Tom and Mac mentioned)

What about #2 at Pine Valley?

[Wade Schueneman]

I have not played then, but 3 and 16 at Deal look very interesting.

And what about #1 at Eden.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Keep them coming guys...

There are relatively few wildly undulating greens in Ireland... one or two in Portrush, a couple of beauties on the Valley nine of the OTM course at Rosapenna (not to mention the new 9th by Iverson / Doak but that isn't classic era obviously)... Even in the modern era Hackett built very flat greens generally, Ruddy does in the most part (although his spare par-3 8th at The European has great movement / pitch)...

Talking of Ruddy, there are a few greens at Portsalon which I presume are original and hence classic era that have great internal contour... The par-3 15th has big left to right fall (note tee shot from 2 o'clock) in a series of very small pinnable bowls:


Portsalon 15th Green 15th Sept 2011 003 by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr

The 13th and 16th also have pretty big movement within the surfaces...

[Sean_A]

Yeamans' first is pretty wild.




Pennard's 7th


But, its in perfect harmony with the fairway.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I'm not sure anything at Yeamans Hall should count, since they were all lost at one point and everything there today was restored just a few years ago.

[Mark McKeever]

What about 15 at Bethpage Black?   Nevermind...

Mark

[Niall C]

Sadly, no pictures to offer but how about these from Scottish courses not already mentioned.

Nairn - the downhill par 3 on the back nine (no. 13 ?) with a huge swale at the front. Also the long par 4 two holes in front has a fair bit of movement on it. A couple of other greens have steps at the front from memory. All inall, not bad for a course thats supposedly got boring greens !

Duff House Royal - several candidates. The double green of the 1st and 17th with a step to differentiate the playing areas of each. The other double green of the 6th and 15th with the huge pimple in the middle. The "Duff House" hole with the plateau green. And finally 18th which is a stepped green with a bank at theback. That description hardly does it justice but its marvellous fun hitting shots on to the top step, watching run up the bank and come all the way down.

Pitreavie - like Duff House, another MacKenzie course with several stepped greens like Jeff's photos of Victoria but perhaps with a more prominent step. Perhaps FBD has some photos ?

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

Your post on Scottish courses somehow reminded me of the wildest green in Ireland ... the 13th at Dooks.

It looks like a MacKenzie green but he never worked there, as far as I know.

[RJ_Daley]

I"d give consideration to Lawsonia.  While not as severe on the frequency of internal contours in tight undulations, the Lawsonia greens have broad sweeping terrace or section green contours that make for some long putt challenges.  I'd say it is something similar to the sort of slopes on greens that the Mac-Raynor style evokes. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall:

Your post on Scottish courses somehow reminded me of the wildest green in Ireland ... the 13th at Dooks.

It looks like a MacKenzie green but he never worked there, as far as I know.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, this one is gone Tom... I never saw it before the Hawtree redesign / renovation but almost all greens looked altered to me...

[Randy St John]

I have no pictures unfortunately, but Cape Arundel GC has some wild greens, in particular #3,5,7,8,11,14,and 17. The work done in 2010 did nothing to hurt them and only enhanced them with better drainage and some bunker workings.

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

Your post on Scottish courses somehow reminded me of the wildest green in Ireland ... the 13th at Dooks.

It looks like a MacKenzie green but he never worked there, as far as I know.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, this one is gone Tom... I never saw it before the Hawtree redesign / renovation but almost all greens looked altered to me...

Ally:

I wish you were kidding, but I suppose you're not.

There is no way you could have seen the course and missed which green I was talking about, if it was still there.  It was one of the few greens in the world which came to mind as being comparable with the famous photo(s) from Sitwell Park.  And it was a perfect fit at a wild, short, pretty course like Dooks.  But I suppose it's much more fair now!  Ugh.

[Mark Chaplin]

16 at Deal is pretty special, perfect green for a short par 5.

[DMoriarty]

Tom and Ally,

The following link has the 13th green at Dooks at about the one minute mark.  Don't know if it is the original green or modified green.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUPxeQT3N4

[Bill Gayne]

The horseshoe at Forsgate.

[Wade Schueneman]

OK, I am an unabashed lover of golden age courses.  As a general rule, I prefer them to modern designs.  However, when I look at these pictures of "the wildest classic era greens still in existence", I honestly don't see that they are really any wilder than what is being produced by some of today's architects.  In fact, I'm not sure that the craziest stuff I have seen isn't some of the modern stuff.  Is the notion that greens were more dramatic in days gone by mostly a romantic fantasy?  If so, what does that say about our fears that escalating green speeds will inevitably lead to the extinction of severely contoured putting surfaces?

Same here, Ed.  I would have thought that the "wilidest" greens would have been built when green speeds were generally much slower.  Do you think that it is because putting has become easier with modern technology?  I have an old butter knife putter (you know the kind of putter that is really easy to actually mishit) and putting is a challenge with that thing even on relatively simple greens.  Alternatively, perhaps the fact that modern clubs/balls are so easy to hit (for good players like you at least) - thus translating into lots og 10-20 foot putts - necessitates wild greens at high speeds to "defend" par.   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Ally,

The following link has the 13th green at Dooks at about the one minute mark.  Don't know if it is the original green or modified green.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUPxeQT3N4

That's the original green.  I hope it's still there.

[Jay Flemma]

I'll vote for Oakmont/

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom and Ally,

The following link has the 13th green at Dooks at about the one minute mark.  Don't know if it is the original green or modified green.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUPxeQT3N4

That's the original green.  I hope it's still there.

Thanks David - Those greens are definitely not the ones I saw.

Tom - I found an old thread on this site that talked about the upcoming work and stated that the 13th green was being slightly altered to provide more pinnable positions... It seemed to last well for 110 years as a course highlight without those pinnable positions but progress is progress I suppose...

Aidan also seems to have a photo on his website. I suspect this is post-change and there is still a significant trough on the green site. Hard to tell when it was taken because it's close up of only half the green and you can't see the surrounds that would give the game away.