News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 12:09:56 PM »
Chris,

That is so true.  Not just the feet.  A good operator can tell very subtle slopes based on the resistance he feels on the machine.

I have never really heard of anyone actually using GPS ONLY to build a green and leaving it.  If it happens, I think we can all agree the architect had a contract based on speed of construction or cost, and wasn't commissioned by the owner to build great greens, even by implication.  It happens.  There is even a logical market for such greens, but also, by definition, most would agree they gave up on greatness before the barn door was open to let the construction equipment out for the day.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 12:21:02 PM »
I'm on the road and can't post it, but I recalled seeing as builts done by a subcontractor for the greens at Riviera when Ben Crenshaw came in and did his greens renovation. Specifically I am mentally visualizing the as-built for the 10th at Riv and from the points they mapped they used tiny arrows to show the direction of the slope at each point to show how water will drain and by extension, it's undulations.

Is Riviera not a great golf course? Is the 10th not a great green? Is Ben Crenshaw not a great architect? And is the 10th better or worse because they utilized some technology in their scope of work?

I recall this plan of the 10th specifically because I used it as inspiration for when I drew up the as-builts for the greens extensions in 2005. I'm pretty sure it can be found in the Riviera history book.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 01:57:52 PM »
Ian:

That's why I asked you about Dave Axland and Dan Proctor earlier.  Because whatever technology they used to map the greens -- and we've used maps on all the greens we've rebuilt, too -- in the end, Dan Proctor was probably the guy on the sand pro trying to get it just right, and the tenth green was ready when he was.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 02:37:47 PM »
Ian,
The subcontractor you mention was Ed Connor and he went around shooting contour on many classic courses during that time.  However, I think he was using a Theodolite instrument at the time.  He did copy all the greens at Riviera before they did the work.  But still I just see all of this as a form of mapping if one wishes to replace an existing green etc.  When it comes to a new green, I think the best will always be built from a single stake in the middle of the green.  JMO.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Sloan

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 04:25:09 PM »
I would appreciate experts like you or Mike explaining to me whether you think GPS equipment would make it easy to rebuild an old green's contours precisely, to new USGA construction.  If it would, then I would love to let the computers do this work instead of having to pay such close attention to it, and it would free up my most valuable employees to go create cool new greens instead.- Tom Doak

This type of greens "replacement" project is precisely the application that we (Frontier Golf) have found to be a great application for GPS regarding green construction.  As a golf course contractor, the use of this technology (survey grade RTK GPS Rover/Base system concurrent with mmGPS laser system) gives us the most precise method to construct the greens to USGA Spec. when the existing contours are to be preserved. 

Typically on this type of project, we will localize the site, map the greens and create the base maps showing .1' contours on the green surface.  The CAD file is then loaded into the data collector and along with the rover unit and a skilled GPS operator used to check grades throughout the green construction process, telling the Operators where the cuts and fills need to happen to re-create the green surface.  The GPS rover and operator are used for the sub-grade, gravel blanket and green mix to ensure each layer is a mirror image of each other.  In the end, the result is a USGA Spec green, that is precisely the same contours as the existing green.  Of course, the level of precision and accuracy lies in the density of the points collected during the mapping phase, along with the level of detail and attention given by the GPS Operator.  In other words, the quality of the execution of the construction is the most important aspect of constructing a green, whether you are utilizing GPS or not.  While the use of the GPS is a great tool in aiding the construction of the green by way of grade control, it does not replace the need for skilled operators during the process and for the final float. 

We have completed many of these types of projects using this method for greens construction and they have all been a success for our clients.

I hope this offers a little insight from the contractor's perspective regarding the use of GPS for green construction.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 04:35:50 PM »
Jason:

What is the best set of greens you've rebuilt with GPS equipment?

[Hint:  if you say Olympic Club, I'm going to have to ask Gib Papazian and Joel Stewart how well you did, and they are among the toughest critics in these parts.]

Derek Dirksen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2012, 05:12:48 AM »
I can see where rebuilding or restoring a green might be helpfull with GPS.  Like what has been stated before there still must be a skilled operator on the gps controlled machine as well as the sandpro.  On new construction I think it is a different story.  One would have to assume that all the topos are correct and the architect can actually draw (CAD) exactly what he wants.  I haven't had a green "staked" in over four years.  Thats not because I don't want stakes its just I haven't had that highly detailed set of green plans.   I prefer to look at plan/sketch and talk with architect, then procede to shape green.  I use a eye/hand level to rough it in and then break out my laser to shoot final grades and make any tweaks. 

I have never used a gps controlled or guided machine.  My question to those who have is how does it work with the green core.  Can you set it up so it will core out green?  If not then you have still have to have a guy come back and core it out. 


Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2012, 04:47:39 AM »
There is a huge difference between rebuilding greens accepted as great and building new ones for a project. HUGE!

In rebuilding great greens, you are copying, or trying to do so as precisely as possible. With new greens, it is an artistic venture. It is like comparing apples and elephants.

As for new, fresh work... and the original question... "How about can they be built "strictly according to plan"? The key word is... strictly.

Of a thousand tries you might get a couple... might, but you will never, ever get a set, and I doubt even a small collection.

Greatness is achieved like in any other artistic pursuit... by delving through initial concepts, picking one that you think will work exceptionally well and refining, refining, refining using the greatest super computer in the world... the human brain. I venture most cannot be built without the architect on-site either... anyone who has worked with builders knows most of the guys on the machines aren't schooled in great golf and have pet styles/habits. There is politics involved too, for a shaper who ditches the architect's concept runs the risk of pissing off the architect by making him look bad, so the shaper will act like a grade school student and color inside the lines. Following plans strictly is safe for the builder (it doesn't cost the construction company anything and they are business to get the job done and get out of there). In fact, a shaper for a company will try to get the boring green build to perfection so the architect who makes his rare site-visit is loath to change anything... just ask the guys who do it for a living. If the architect doesn't care about protecting the investor by being on-site, why should the builder sweat the design details? It's not their job, their responsibility.

Here comes a paradox...

The problem with the human brain, what I just called the supercomputer is it isn't that creative. Is not creative. We run our brain in patterns. For example, with 11 pieces of clothes there are some 3 million ways to get dressed in the morning. We have developed a pattern so we can get to the kitchen for the morning coffee without wearing a sock on our head, underwear as a t-shirt and our pants on with the zipper dragging on the ground. Golf architects who plan-and-run have it hundreds of times more difficult, as do their investors. The architects are responsible for multi-million dollar or Euro investments and the entire success of the project rides on this, therefore with the plan-and-run methodology, they tend to play it safe both by design and then add the uncreative brain and you can fill in the blanks... B _ _ _ _ _ G.

In the field pushing dirt around there are sparks flying all the time; those sparks are opportunities to break out of patterns and safety and get close to the cutting edge (if you want to for that particular green... or any aspect of the design), and this allows you to weigh the other greens and holes and create something that isn't repetitive. It provides opportunities you could never foresee at the drawing board, for if the architect could foresee them he would have planned them... in detail. Which brings me to another point. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DETAILED PLANS.

How uncreative are humans? Mike Nuzzo probably knows this study, and perhaps he was run through this test, but NASA developed a test for creativity for its engineers, etc. One involved how many uses one could find for a paper clip. They ran this test on 1800 or so children of kindergarten age, then when they were in grade school and then junior high. If you came up with 200 uses/ideas you were a genius. The result?

Test results amongst 5 year olds: 98% found 200+ ideas/uses!
Test results amongst 10 year olds: 30%
Test results amongst 15 year olds: 12%
Same test given to 280,000 adults: 2%

One would think the opposite would occur. We are schooled out of creativity. The mind gets narrower.

Think of the adult/architect who works in a hit-and-run manner... he is conditioned to think inside a small box. Look at the courses built in the last 30-years (and even longer), with all the advantages of technology, and how sterile and lifeless most of it is. For the same money and I venture for far less money, with more leadership during construction, and with less formal planning, there would be more excellent golf courses. And what do the golf architect associations sell? The school of uncreativity.

This isn't to say planning isn't necessary, to say otherwise would be idiotic, you need it for permits, general routing, nail down some engineering solutions, enviro boundaries, and calculate labor and materials. But selling plans as some form a security blanket or Holy Grail is false. Just look around at the banal courses that have resulted from it with limited leadership or in absence of leadership.

Einstein had a couple quotes that hit this right in the bullseye:
1. Imagination (opportunity seeking) is more important than knowledge (plans).

2. It's not that I'm so brilliant, it's that I stick with problems longer. (As a golf architect, he would be on-site rolling it all around in his well developed brain, seeking opportunities that pop-up as dirt is moving around, listening to the crew for sparks of ideas, looking at Nature, and looking for things he missed during the planning stages.)  

Plans should come with warnings, and some in the know do just this.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 06:24:08 AM by Tony Ristola »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2012, 06:52:57 AM »
Tony:

Wonderful post.

Indeed, one of the advantages of designing a green out in the field is that it takes longer to build one than to draw one, so you are likely to spend more time thinking about what you are doing.  This is why I tell all of my interns [no matter what their skill set] that they will be more valuable to us and have more impact on the final product if they are out there on the finish crew, rather than sitting in the office "designing" things on paper.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2012, 09:12:43 AM »
The question is a bit misleading because GPS is not the builder, as mentioned its a tool.

GPS gives you the ability to replicate quite closely, if you feed in the mapping of what you have designed or want to copy/bastardise it means a 'non shaper' can do the work, so in some parts of the world might save, time, money and get the job done the architect wants..... next step I am told is a robot but I dont know how far that is away.

But never is the GPS substituting any architectural work.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2012, 09:30:09 AM »
Nobody's going to pay big bucks to go to Lincoln Center to see a computerized player piano regurgitate Mozart, no matter how mathematically correct....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2012, 09:43:56 AM »
Tony,
Thank you for that.
Just to give a real life example of "plans".

There is a reason we do an irrigation design on paper, and then do an as built set after its in the ground. It hardly ever goes to plan. And irrigation design is 2D. We don't have to worry about % slope, drainage, balancing cut/fill...etc....irrigation is just sticking pipe, wire, and irrigation components in the ground and connecting them back to a source. If there was any part of golf course construction that should go exactly to plan, that could be built with GPS, it should be irrigation. Yet, we always have to do an as built because it always changes. 

Just as with new vs old, on a renovation its much easier to get it close because you know where everything is, and even then you have plans, and then an as built because it just never goes strictly to plan. And you don't try and force it because when you deviate from the plan its because your making improvements or dealing with site conditions. When you run into some unforeseen rock, you can go around it, or blast through it, deciding which is the best option shouldn't be based on a line on a page.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2012, 10:17:05 AM »
After reading Tony's post and the last few I realized another question.  How many great greens have been built by contractors with plans vs. an architects personal crew?  Now this isn't a slam at contractors but a question that came to mind when Tony began to discuss creativity.  Developing a green onsite is most often going to lead to a much better green than giving a contractor a drawing and coming back every few weeks to check it. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2012, 10:22:59 AM »
The question is a bit misleading because GPS is not the builder, as mentioned its a tool.

GPS gives you the ability to replicate quite closely, if you feed in the mapping of what you have designed or want to copy/bastardise it means a 'non shaper' can do the work, so in some parts of the world might save, time, money and get the job done the architect wants..... next step I am told is a robot but I dont know how far that is away.

But never is the GPS substituting any architectural work.


Adrian:

But doesn't the GPS approach make it way easier [and therefore way more likely] that architects will just start copying their past work [or an ODG's work] EXACTLY?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2012, 10:28:51 AM »
After reading Tony's post and the last few I realized another question.  How many great greens have been built by contractors with plans vs. an architects personal crew?  Now this isn't a slam at contractors but a question that came to mind when Tony began to discuss creativity.  Developing a green onsite is most often going to lead to a much better green than giving a contractor a drawing and coming back every few weeks to check it. 

Mike:

Tony already nailed the answer.  It's a question of incentives.  Generally speaking, contractors have no incentive to try to make the course any cooler than what the architect drew [unless, as on occasion, they think that's what the architect wants].  Their incentive is to build something that works -- that they won't have to waste time revising -- and move on to the next job.

I really don't see how/why anyone would build an edgy green by a set of plans ... if you're going to work on the edge of being risky, you would want to be 100% sure you were there in the field at the end, to say it's okay or tone it down a little.  Although, I will say that the most severe greens I built at Lost Dunes were the ones when I wasn't standing right there from start to finish, and had to leave a little sketch for the shaper, Jerame Miller.  I found that I tend to draw things even steeper than I build them on site -- which is not a good idea, in my case!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2012, 11:13:10 AM »

Tom - Probably, but a lot of architects have been doing that for years anyway. Many have their own standard templates they just bring out of the rack. I personally dont like exact copy but the principals of something and mixing that principal into a new home I do like and I suspect is what most of us on this site sort of do. Probably a great skill of a golf course architect is to see something perhaps even 30 years ago, remember it then find a home for it later. A problem is more the ability to pass on whats 'in the mind' to the shaper, you work with a team on site, some of mine I get 6 site visits during construction, so I think it can have a place, but its just an aid.

Adrian:

But doesn't the GPS approach make it way easier [and therefore way more likely] that architects will just start copying their past work [or an ODG's work] EXACTLY?
[/quote]
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Angela Moser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2012, 11:13:40 AM »
Hi guys:

I think this question might be the most important question for the future of golf course architecture and construction. Every architect will have his own answer and technique -hopefully- best fitting to his work routine. Although I don't have as much experience as some 'old timers' here, I got to know three different ways to build a golf course in terms of techniques.

BUT: When working on a 'Build everything with GPS technology on machinery' - site, I saw how much the GPS is limited by the amount of contour lines, the architect drew in CAD. The CAD plan is just loaded into the GPS Software, the blade has two gps receiver on top (depending how wide the blade is, there will be no subtle contourlines in between) saying there is more material needed or not. This means the architect has to be super accurate, drawing even the super small contours, or you will get a boring, uniform green.

Tom mentioned Line Mortensen before and I met her through him last summer. At this time she was drawing 5cm (~2inch) contour lines for the greens and approach areas on one of her projects, since the construction company is building with GPS. She liked the idea of really designing the ground, knowing that it is working. It might make sense for someone who really can imagine how the contours are working even in super small detail (how is the break on the green), but then there are still some facts: In my opinion,
- 5cm drawn contour lines are still too little if you want to have a great green
- this is super time consuming for an architect (this leads to copy and paste...)
- the construction company might not care if it's not working (liability of architect) time is money...
and to be honest, I don't think every architect is able to image his own green and relied on the shaper's eye in the past.

On the GPS site I learnt a lot - in a negative way:
I was told by the boss that "this is the future and everyone could build greens from now on. There is no need for a well-paid shaper since I have the technology. This is cheap, fast and effective... I can put any cheap worker into a dozer and he doesn't even have to understand the game of golf." Furthermore he told me that gca's doesn't have a future, since he can easily paste every green he already built or just scan a really well working green.

I totally disagree!!! Building with GPS makes everything uniform and won't give you really interesting greens. Working with this technology is great to relocate pipes and wires. It is great to get an idea of the green which needs to get renovated, but in the end it is the shaper's eye or bud and his understanding, feeling and love to the game and especially the site which really builds the green how it's built.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2012, 11:30:18 AM »
Angela - I agree with your disagree.

I am only thinking that working with GPS can take you to the shaping stage of the subgrade. From that point I think it needs to return to conventional methods, I like the greens hand built, if your building USGA greens you probably only have an inch tolerance in working and grading the top mix, ofcourse if your not gravelling and blinding you have much more tolerance with your rootzone mix.

Its not zillions of work to produce a green plan to 50mm intervals (2 inches), maybe another 20 minutes for the green. Must be very hard to work inside 50mm though..........and this will mean you always need the architect.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2012, 11:33:30 AM »

Tom - Probably, but a lot of architects have been doing that for years anyway. Many have their own standard templates they just bring out of the rack. I personally dont like exact copy but the principals of something and mixing that principal into a new home I do like and I suspect is what most of us on this site sort of do. Probably a great skill of a golf course architect is to see something perhaps even 30 years ago, remember it then find a home for it later. A problem is more the ability to pass on whats 'in the mind' to the shaper, you work with a team on site, some of mine I get 6 site visits during construction, so I think it can have a place, but its just an aid.

Adrian:

But doesn't the GPS approach make it way easier [and therefore way more likely] that architects will just start copying their past work [or an ODG's work] EXACTLY?
[/quote]


Adrian:

Yes, it's rare that an architect doesn't ever work with a concept he has tried before.  But without the GPS technology, the combination of an uncertain memory and a different base topography meant that we always have to adapt those ideas [no matter how old or how new] to our given site, and those adaptations are the essence of what we do.

If the GPS really allows a green to be copied precisely in a new location ... just keep adding dirt until it's there, as Angela describes ... then this will be sold as "more efficient" and more practical, and we'll see a lot more copy-and-paste design in the future.  But, is it really more efficient to haul in however much dirt you need to build the Redan at North Berwick, than just building your own version with a shaper who wants to create something better?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2012, 11:36:42 AM »
Good post Angela.
Let's see: We have automatic lathes that can turn out wooden bowls as fast as you can place the block of wood on the lathe.  But you still pay the artist for a one of a kind turned piece.
The same for the potter.
The same for the clothier.
Golf is just too  small for such to ever become the standard.  But we will see the design/build as the norm and even drawings will become very minimal IMHO.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2012, 12:18:30 PM »
Tom - The skill of the architect would still be there to tie the 'copy' into the surroundings which in all honesty is what we do anyway. The skill of the architect would still be needed to meet the budget constraints and calculate the soil movements. GPS would be more for the course that is fairly flat with a few lakes and big soil digs, your courses are much more in harmony with the land, mine are often  flat squared fields with an oak tree that I try and use as a back drop 4 times!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2012, 01:43:59 PM »
As part of the generation of aviators that has bridged the gap between ground based NAVAIDs and GPS, I can tell you that GPS isn't going anywhere.  And it is as pervasive as ever.  When used correctly, it can provide more Situational Awareness than any addition to aircraft in 50 years.  The problem with it is dependence. Our syllabi have evolved so that our young pilots are given the freedom to use the full capability of the system on ride #1.  Basic control and stick/rudder skills have measurably declined as a result of this dependence.  I hope GPS will not become a tool of dependence for greens construction in the future, because it is a replication tool and not a creation tool.   It will--as it has with aviation--measurably change the architecture/construction skills of the newer guys. 

However, I don't want to be too much of a grinch.  There is beauty in the system.  Anything can be input into it, even what we call "visual" flying.  If the student is getting confused about some basic ground references in our pattern, he just throws in flightplan 5, an there's our pattern on the screen.  He can replicate a visual maneuver even in instrument flight conditions.  Something that definitely wasn't possibly a few years ago. 

But again, this is replication, nothing more.  There is no creative aspect to any of this.  It is merely a tool to allow us to navigate.  If you want a comparison to the type of greens building that might have been done on some the most highly regarded greens of the last 20 years, just take a look at the flying of Melissa Pemberton or the Red Bull Air Race guys.  Doubtful they are using GPS to create their masterpieces. 

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 07:37:00 PM »
Angela,

I often look back at something I've built and wonder if I could have done it at the drawing board. Usually the answer is no, often never, and I think my mind is pretty creative; I planned on being an artist from age 7 so I have decent visualization skills... but believing I'm creative could just be my falling into the traditional over-optimism of humans as noted by Demosthenes. This I temper by being my own harshest critic, because the easiest person to fool is yourself. That's why I'm on-site daily. I am an extreme pessimist when it comes to plans and other people's money, having seen too many shoddy courses created from "detailed plans", good land and absentee architects... I know my plans in the hands of someone else wouldn't do a whole lot better. It is because I played so many awful courses as a young pro that I got into the business!

To draw it to 5cm or whatever assumes the architect nailed the best solution (usually months or years before a spoon of dirt has been moved), and that they can bring these Commandments down from on high like Moses. The arrogance! You might get a functional green this way, but if you're seeking the exceptional, I'd lay down huge money that that's the sure way to come up short. Of course, many investors have no idea... get sucked into the false security of so-called "detailed plans" and learn the hard lesson... when it i$ too late.

To think, Dr. Mac warned of this 92-years ago, and the same mistakes are still being repeated (that's the cost of limited discussion in the industry, but that's another can of worms). Technology has simplified planning, but building golf courses isn't a science, it's an art. Technology aids design, but someone's brain has to do the actual designing, just like 100-years ago, and history is crystal clear, the best designing is done in the field. If it were my money on the line I would prefer the Master with freedom and flexibility to zig and zag, than a pain(t)-by-numbers kit (plans).

I wonder, if an architect were to build his own course, go all-in and put his life savings on the line, would he work in the pain(t)-by-numbers kit way for his investment of millions?


Angela Moser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2012, 04:51:50 AM »
Tony,

to your last question: I wouldn't... With a lot CAD experience background (3D fly-throughs, elevation modells, etc) I would built my personal course by some hand sketches and then being on site 24/7. CAD is a nice tool to calculate the cut/fill and to print out the base map.

As I said before, I saw different ways to built a golf course and for me GPS is a nice tool to safe the location of a pipe. I even disagree with using GPS for building the base contours (of a green) since you'll get too much bound to those contours even when they don't feel right. Kye Goalby taught me to spin around with a sandpro looking from different angles and get a feeling with your bud. I haven't had a feeling for the green when I was just starring at the gps screen in the bulldozer...

- this is my opinion -

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2012, 09:09:13 AM »
What is a great putting green?

Is it a green that the 1% of golf course architecture enthusiasts play, study and critique on Golf Club Atlas?

Or is it a green that the 99% of greens fee paying golfers can come away from saying that those were some fun greens to put on and would come back and pay to play again?

I say the latter. And with the 99%, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a green constructed with or without GPS. And quite frankly, they don't care. The people who care are on this website.

Any assertions that the use of GPS means the process always includes the use of a GPS operated robot bulldozers and that the use of GPS lacks the art of the human touch are completely false. The percentage of people who use GPS operated bulldozers are few and far between. The major majority of the industry still use a human and their feel for the shaping through the seat of their pants and the sizer tracks to get it done. There is not some contingent out there that is trying to take over the art form with the robotic manufacturing of golf courses. If there are those out there who feel golf should be manufactured by robots, they are also a small percentage. The human art form is well in tact and always will be.

There are also the assertions being made that if you use GPS to design a green complex, how evil, that when it comes to actually building the green it has to be built perfectly to the plans specifications and nothing less. And because of that you'll lose something in the details. Wrong...

The old (and new) guys used pad and pencil, a handful of soil or sand under their feet, plasticine models and yes; some sort of surveying instruments. There is absolutely nothing different than sitting at a computer and using a civil 3D AutoCAD program to brainstorm and create interesting contours for a fun and challenging green. It's an artistic medium. Nothing more nothing less. Paint brush and canvas, mouse and 16 gigabytes. It's all the same, just different methods to transport the imagination and creativity from your brain to the ground. To say the GPS method means designing it on a computer, using a robotic bulldozer to build the design and that the final product HAS to reflect the computer design EXACTLY...is just wrong.

GPS is used to map the existing natural contours prior to construction, it CAN be used as a creative medium to design the PROPOSED contours and to map the contours AFTER the builder has taken the plans as a guideline and executed the construction while making necessary creative and engineering adjustments that come up during the construction. It's called an as-built. It's not just for pipe or calculating area and volume. It's an artistic medium as well as a technological instrument. Either way it's a tool. A tool that does not and never will replace the human element. It's a tool that makes the process more precise and more efficient. Precision and efficiency should be important values for any successful project.

Great greens. #10 at Riviera. Was built in the field by Thomas and Bell. Decades later was renovated to USGA spec to better flush the coastal salts. The original, or topdressed modified, contours were mapped with a grid system and numerical values were assigned to each point on the grid. All in an attempt to preserve the original size, shape and internal contours. It doesn't matter if it was done by GPS or the oldest transit in the world. A tool was used to precisely place a numerical value at each point on the grid. That's all it is. A number. GPS, transit or triangulation using a piece of string. It's all used to create numerical values that are relevant to each other to show accurate size and scale.

Could somebody's imagination create something like 10 green at Riv on AutoCAD just like Thomas and Bell did in the field? Why not? It's on a flat piece of land. No severe existing contours around it to tie in to. 10's green site was a clean blank canvas for Thomas and Bell. They could create anything they wanted with their imagination just like someone can with AutoCAD. If you can take a plan of mapped numbers to replicate a green, you can take a plan of mapped numbers to create a green. Make whatever creative and engineered changes you want, and then map the final product for a precise as-built that can show preconstruction contours, designed contours and final contours.

I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. It's a tool. It will never replace the human touch. If you guys want to keep bringing up that point you're debating yourselves because nobody has made the case for replacing the human touch on this thread. The reality is GPS is here, it's a precision instrument to map. Just like the old dead guys used their transits. Technology can't be completely neglected.