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Kyle Harris

Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« on: February 15, 2012, 08:13:14 PM »
On the renovating classic greens thread, Tom Doak makes the almost irrefutable case that many great greens were built well before the advent or usage of GPS.

Simple question:

Can a great putting green be built with GPS?

Tom's tone almost suggests a nostalgia for the old ways, which while respectable, may gloss over the fact that not very many have actually "pushed the envelope" of a GPS's capabilities or have not been able to adapt the technology to the talent.

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 08:14:42 PM »
Who determines if it's great?
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Kyle Harris

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 08:15:22 PM »
Who determines if it's great?


Jim:

Let's have the individual giving the answer provide that answer as well.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 08:24:49 PM »
GPS is a tool. A fool and a tool is still a fool. An expert with the tool is still an expert. GPS doesn't build anything.

We used GPS extensively during the construction of Wolf Point. It was more like a note book. It recorded everything we put in the ground the day it went into the ground. It helped us measure quantities, and keep track of our daily process. It didn't manage us and it never made a decision. Its a tool, that's all.

Kyle Harris

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 08:27:31 PM »
GPS is a tool. A fool and a tool is still a fool. An expert with the tool is still an expert. GPS doesn't build anything.

We used GPS extensively during the construction of Wolf Point. It was more like a note book. It recorded everything we put in the ground the day it went into the ground. It helped us measure quantities, and keep track of our daily process. It didn't manage us and it never made a decision. Its a tool, that's all.

Don:

Exactly my rationale behind this post. It seemed odd to me that one could go one way or the other with regard to GPS and putting green quality.

I think there is an emerging ability for shapers to be able to shape a sub-grade for a USGA construction green that ties into the surroundings above it.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »
Kyle,
I spent the day with Mike Nuzzo looking over a green renovation project. Mike knows GPS. I'd put his knowledge up against anyone on this DG and anyone else in golf for that matter. Mike does not use GPS for contour or slope measurement. I have a feeling he'll see this thread and I hope he chimes in. IMO, GPS has many applications in golf construction and maintenance, but it does not replace the human eye and brain.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 08:48:20 PM »
No.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 09:01:28 PM »
Can it be done solely relying on GPS and having a CAD monkey do it in the office and not step foot on the property? Absolutely not that's ridiculous. Dons right it is only a tool. But tools are around and were invented to solve a problem and make something work more effectively and efficiently.

I did the as-builts for the greens renovations at Riviera for their first round of renovations. I did it the old fashioned way by physically laying out a 10 foot grid on each green using triangulation. I then used a Lincoln rod and a transit to get all of the elevations. We were doing USGA green expansions and used one of those Stanley digital yardsticks to analyze the slope percentages from the existing green into the new expansions. It took forever and we had to do it while play was going through.

Looking back in hindsight that is a project I wish I had known how to GPS and use AutoCAD. It would have taken 1/10 of the time and never interrupt member play. Plus I could have mapped it down to a 1 or 2 foot grid and been a million times more precise. Did they come out great without it? Absolutely. Would it have been quicker, easier and less intrusive with GPS? Absolutely.

It's a tool, not a replacement.

Kyle Harris

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 09:16:52 PM »
Ian:

Are you saying that the human mind cannot develop a talent for "seeing" contours on a map and being able to translate that into GPS relatable data?

Aside: Can a good shaper go blind and still be a good shaper?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 09:20:32 PM »
Can it be done solely relying on GPS and having a CAD monkey do it in the office and not step foot on the property? Absolutely not that's ridiculous. Dons right it is only a tool. But tools are around and were invented to solve a problem and make something work more effectively and efficiently.

I did the as-builts for the greens renovations at Riviera for their first round of renovations. I did it the old fashioned way by physically laying out a 10 foot grid on each green using triangulation. I then used a Lincoln rod and a transit to get all of the elevations. We were doing USGA green expansions and used one of those Stanley digital yardsticks to analyze the slope percentages from the existing green into the new expansions. It took forever and we had to do it while play was going through.

Looking back in hindsight that is a project I wish I had known how to GPS and use AutoCAD. It would have taken 1/10 of the time and never interrupt member play. Plus I could have mapped it down to a 1 or 2 foot grid and been a million times more precise. Did they come out great without it? Absolutely. Would it have been quicker, easier and less intrusive with GPS? Absolutely.

It's a tool, not a replacement.

Ian:

While you were doing all that, what were Dave Axland and Dan Proctor doing?

The answer to the question you have posed is simple.  Just name some examples of great greens that were built by AutoCAD and GPS, instead of by a shaper and an architect in the field.  I have been asking this question for ten years, and I have yet to hear ANY examples, much less anywhere near as many examples as I could give you of great greens built the old-fashioned way in the last 5-10 years.

Kyle Harris

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 09:24:12 PM »
Tom:

But is that a limitation of the tool or the people using the tool?

A bunch of folk musicians likely thought the same thing about Les Paul's new-fangled noise maker.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 09:36:46 PM »
I had this same kind of discussion with my grandfather who absolutely would not use Skype to not only talk to me from across the country, but able to see me. You just couldn't convince the guy to use anything but the old rotary beside his recliner.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 09:43:16 PM »
Kyle and Ian:

I am not saying that it CAN'T BE DONE.

I am asking that if it is as easy as Ian says, then WHY HASN'T ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO DO IT?

There is a lot of information lost between the lines on a contour plan, even contour plans at the smallest of intervals.  We had a 0.05-meter contour plan of one of the old greens at Royal Melbourne (East) which had been moved, and even then, I had to wad it up near the end and just finish the green by eye to restore it.  I guess if I'd had a GPS, I could have rebuilt it "exactly" or at least pretended that I had.  But I do not know anyone who draws contour plans at 0.05 meters and gets cool subtleties int he greens by that method.  The architect who is most accomplished at it that I know is Line Mortensen, and she says she wishes her clients would let her build greens our way.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 11:29:46 PM »
I feel like Joshua Bell* being forced to listen to a kids violin recital while he has a headache.

There are 4 types of GPS
The kind on your phone and in your car - they help you find a golf course.
Sub meter - measures within 3' horizontally, 6' vertically.
Decimeter - measures within 4" horiz, 8" verticallly.
Centimeter - measures within 0.3" horiz, 0.6" vertically.

There are 4 types of CAD
Vector
Wireframe
Surface
Solid Model

This is how Don and I used GPS at Wolf Point to the greatest effect
Planning & Construction - We flagged & staked the features & earthwork we needed into the ground - alone & faster than any contractor.
Irrigation - We measured the features we finished during the day - processed the data and updated the rotor spacing for optimum coverage that night over beers - then the next morning we flagged where the heads should go using cables and GPS
I highly doubt anyone has done what we did with such efficiency before or since.
Post - we recorded everything we did

The Greens at Wolf Point were not built with CAD or GPS by choice
Could we build a great green with CAD & GPS - sure - but why would we want to - you still need a bulldozer or sand pro - and putting a GPS unit on them is just silly for golf construction
If the green is great and we saved money who gives a shit how we built it?

*Joshua Bell thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50777.0.html
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 04:43:31 AM »
Most times talking to the old timers on here is like talking to a brick wall. In no way was GPS or AutoCAD brought up in a way where it replaced on the field experience and decision making. Like I said before  and agreed with naysayers, it's a tool.

If you can prove to me that GPS and AutoCAD would have been a waste of time and/or detrimental to the project such as Riviera then I will concede. But let's get real that's not going to happen. Even
 guys at Wolf Point who feel they hold the Holy Grail to golf course design and development can't bring that kind of proof to the table.

Before you guys take this out of context, once again, to fit your beliefs...I'm going to reiterate myself and say that it's a tool, like a shovel. It's never going to replace any shaper or a designer in the field. But it is going to do its duty as a tool to make the project more sellable, more precise with maintaining the broad topography and Making the project more efficient and valuable.

Just because Wolf Point was a success doesn't make it the blueprint to every other project out there. As well as any Doak course, just because the discussion board wants to sit in a circle and jack off over these so called idles of the trade.

If you guys cant acknowledge GPS as an effective tool for renovation/restoration then good luck with your mules and scrapes. Say what you want but don't twist my words or take them out of context.

I took a hiatus from this circle jerk and realize why I did so in the first place...

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 06:56:30 AM »


All I see is yet again the full willingness of certain people to take further steps away from the reality of a game called golf.

These same people see no compromise when using carts, distance aids or the latest technology in the headlong pursuit to destroy the heart and soul of the game of golf

Why not utilise GPS, after all you have already contaminated the game of golf with other aids just to make your life easy. I wonder if you feel the same about the commitment to your flag and country.

Quite frankly if you do not get it, or want to protect it then get the hell away from the game and leave golf to the traditionalist.

      Not one word has been spoken about a duty of care or for that matter responsibility of maintaining if not the great,
      then certainly older Greens that have stood the test of time. Just because modern golfer no longer seem able to
      hack the courses or Greens that their fathers and grandfathers mastered, change is demanded using the excuse
      that they are boring.

      Architects and designers jump in to modify these areas without, what appears, concern for the quality or history of
      the course and the underlying greatness of the Greens in question. Why has not one of you asked why or put up
      a reasonable defence for maintaining the Green. Or has the constraints upon the golfing world meant that to earn a
      little money we are willing to destroy what was once considered great, only laid low by the lack of controlling
      ball/club technology.
     
      Well the future will no doubt remember you destroyed a Colt or Ross Green for the sake of a hand full of coins.
      There for the grace of God goes a man that used the excuse of feeding his family before destroying a work of such
      skill and knowledge that was The Green at ….. 
         
Use your modern tools but that does not mean that your design is better, it just means you have taken the easy option. But don’t fret, you are doing what many, many others are doing, however the question is should you know better, do you know better, in fact are you doing it for golf or purely to make a living, no matter the cost to the game and the old great courses.  Are you just plugging the gap until some consistency in controlling technology is achieved diminishing in your wake the great holes, in fact have you asked yourselves will your modification stand the test of time or will it too be modified within half a dozen years.

So use your toys, make life easy but unless you tackle the underlying problems within the game you will have achieved very little with or without you GPS.

Sorry just a passionate plea for some form of consistency in dealing with many old courses originally designed by past Masters otherwise we may just read about their greatness as most of their work will have been destroyed.

Oh by the way GPS should never be used in designing Greens, unless the said Greens will be affected by the tides!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 07:33:10 AM »
Can it be done solely relying on GPS and having a CAD monkey do it in the office and not step foot on the property? Absolutely not that's ridiculous. Dons right it is only a tool. But tools are around and were invented to solve a problem and make something work more effectively and efficiently.

I did the as-builts for the greens renovations at Riviera for their first round of renovations. I did it the old fashioned way by physically laying out a 10 foot grid on each green using triangulation. I then used a Lincoln rod and a transit to get all of the elevations. We were doing USGA green expansions and used one of those Stanley digital yardsticks to analyze the slope percentages from the existing green into the new expansions. It took forever and we had to do it while play was going through.

Looking back in hindsight that is a project I wish I had known how to GPS and use AutoCAD. It would have taken 1/10 of the time and never interrupt member play. Plus I could have mapped it down to a 1 or 2 foot grid and been a million times more precise. Did they come out great without it? Absolutely. Would it have been quicker, easier and less intrusive with GPS? Absolutely.

Ian:

I don't think I've taken your words out of context.  It was the other concurrent thread where someone spoke of how easy it was to use GPS to rebuild a green perfectly ... Tim Nugent said it first, but then you chimed in and agreed, I believe.

Anyway, we don't seem to be saying things much differently, and my last post agreed with you for the most part, so I don't know why you have gotten so upset.

The only part of your argument I don't understand is whether you are saying it would have been way easier to REBUILD the greens at Riviera using GPS, or whether it just would have been easier to MAP them that way.

And, since I am an "old timer" ;) , I would appreciate experts like you or Mike explaining to me whether you think GPS equipment would make it easy to rebuild an old green's contours precisely, to new USGA construction.  If it would, then I would love to let the computers do this work instead of having to pay such close attention to it, and it would free up my most valuable employees to go create cool new greens instead.

P.S.  I remember when I was 20 and working for Pete Dye, how silly I thought he was for making fun of new technology.  All he was really saying was that in the end, the important stuff is still up to the guy who's overseeing the technology, and he was mistrustful of handing off that responsibility to anyone, or anyTHING, else.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 10:18:09 AM »
Slightly off topic but I suspect that this is the first time that my friend, Tom Doak, has been referred to as an "old timer".  Congratulations Tom, welcome to the club.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 10:24:58 AM »
Tom, I didn't say you could rebuild something perfectly. I was responding to 'how can you propose a modification and know the outcome will be as promised'.  I believe it was in the context of soften greens where the greenspeeds had been dramically increased to the point where the original design concepts were no longer relevant.

The course I'm working on now has GPS on the brain.  They measure everything on an as-built basis.  Being old-school, I let them layout the perimeter of the green (materials are expensive, so size matters) and a maybe 4 internal points.  Then I dozer the green.  Of course I knock out half the stakes but that's okay, I got the rough idea.  Next I fire up my CAT 247 track skid-steer and fine tune everything.  After I think it looks good, I break out a lazer and measure the internal slopes ( I want to make sure drains).  After I'm happy, Mr. GPS comes over and records the subgrade (with many, many points).  After drainage is installed and recorded, I stake the internals for a 20-30cm coarse-sand sublayer.  This is installed.  Then I tweek the surface to get it all to flow.  Then this is recorded and the final 30cm of rootzone mix is installed with internal staking of the highs and lows.  The GPS checks for a uniform 30 cms.  Then the final is done with a small Tractor.  A sandpro will float out the final prior to seeding.

As you can see, a GPS is only a measuring and feedback tool.  It can't replace the experienced field people.

Even those of us who do extensive plans know that they are not unlike Michelangeo's many sketchbooks. They provide a guide to illustrate the design concepts.  But, until you put the chisel to the marble, you don't know which way the graining will take you.

I'll bet even those who "wing it" use some sort of device(s) to measure and get feedback.  After 30 yrs of fieldwork, I got as good as eye as anyone when it comes to "readng" grade.  But even I get fooled now and then, especially on hilly terrain.  I can feel level on a dozer sometimes better than seeing it.  We have many tools available to build greens, both mechanical and biological.  Different people have their own systems. Not saying anyone is better or worse than the other.  Although I would hesitate to try to use something as subjective as "great" to be a quantifier.
Coasting is a downhill process

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 10:38:02 AM »
Tim:

X2 on everything you said.

Except for creating a record of what has been buillt, greens can be built using a transit and hand level, just to check the grades you have set by eye.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 10:58:38 AM »
You guys have me all confused.  I don't call staking or mapping "building" a green.  Of course you can use GPS to map and stake properties.  I think most do that but trying to program a drawing into a machine and have the machine build something is what I consider building.  Am I right or wrong?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 11:37:32 AM »
Tim:

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm with you on how you described building things, and I agree 100% that even the most well-trained eye can occasionally be fooled.  Slawnik and Schneider and Iverson are as good as they get at feeling how much slope they are building into a green, but it's fun to sit there with a transit and call them on it when they do wind up with something too severe!  [My guys seldom err on the side of too flat!]


Mike:

I'm asking the same thing you are:  whether anyone is actually using GPS to BUILD greens -- I think a few are, especially in Europe -- and whether anyone thinks those greens have turned out great.

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 11:38:12 AM »
Kyle and Ian:

I am not saying that it CAN'T BE DONE.

I am asking that if it is as easy as Ian says, then WHY HASN'T ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO DO IT?

Assuming that the assumption in your question is true, isn't the answer obvious?  The technology is relatively new, and using it isn't the only skill that goes into building a green.  Most likely, none of the great greensbuilders of today (and it isn't a vast #) have adapted to the technology yet.  As the younger generation develops the skills to become greensbuilders, the odds that one or more of them will rely on gps technology will increase.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 11:43:46 AM »
In terms of importance, the iPod is far more so than the GPS.

There is no substitute for building by the soles of your feet, and the lens of the eye.

Feel = results.

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 11:49:37 AM »
If feel is so much more important than technology, how did Mister Ross do so well with his greens?  How did Raynor make a name for himself using templates?  It isn't just feel - and here's the kicker - it never was.  Not even back when they had to walk 5 miles to school in their barefeet in the snow, uphill in both directions.

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