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George Pazin

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Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« on: February 15, 2012, 09:48:54 AM »
I'm having trouble wording this, but I was wondering if the famed Maxwell Rolls were planned, or more random in nature, or did he simply use the natural contours of the land?

A follow up question would be: on courses with fairly severe contours, are they generally planned? In other words, does the architect or shaper say, I want to put a bump in here to influence plan in such and such a manner? Or, I want to put a bump in the back left corner to make recovery from back there more difficult? Or does he or she simply make it bumpy, figuring the rolls will provide interest, without needing to be specific in how they do?

Thanks for any info.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ed Oden

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Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 06:24:59 PM »
George, I'm not sure I really understand your question.  Nevertheless, I'll give a few thoughts that may or may not be relevant.  

As far as I know, Maxwell's January, 1935 interview in American Golfer was the only time he spoke or wrote in detail about his design principles.  Here is a portion of what he said about his general philosophy:

"It is my theory that nature must precede the architect, in the laying out of links.  It is futile to attempt the transformation of wholly inadequate acres into an adequate course.  Invariably the result is the inauguration of an earthquake.  The site of a golf course should be there, not brought there.  A featureless site cannot possibly be economically redeemed.  Many an acre of magnificent land has been utterly destroyed by the steam shovel, throwing up its billows on earth, biting out traps and bunkers, transposing landmarks that are contemporaries of Genesis...  The less of man's handiwork the better a course."

In that same article he says of Dornick Hills:

"Not a square foot of earth that could be left in its natural state has been removed.  No pimples or hummocks of alteration falsify its beauty."

While Maxwell never mentions his "rolls" or his approach to bulding greens, I think your starting point needs to be that he intentionally sought out interesting land that provided natural features he could use for contour and that he avoided disturbing the land except when absolutely necessary.  So, with that in mind, I suspect that his rolls had a natural component to them whenever possible.  However, it also seems pretty clear that Maxwell then took those natural contours and shaped them to create the rolls he is famous for.  As I recall from Chris Clouser's book, Maxwell used clay models to shape his greens before actually building them.  I presume this contributed to the notion that his greens were works of art.  When you add it all up, my guess is that Maxwell's rolls are a combination of great skill in identifying and using natural contours and the equally careful sculpting of the land to create a natural yet dramatic effect.  Sounds like planning to me.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 07:29:01 PM »
George:

I don't think many architects just put rolls into a green haphazardly, thinking they will certainly affect play somehow or other.  Even fewer would admit to it.

But, I am pretty sure that those crowned contours in Perry Maxwell's greens aren't all just untouched natural undulations.  And I doubt that he drew them out in 3-inch contours, either.    He was out there with the crew, watching them be built in 3-D, on the site.  That's how every cool green I've ever seen has been done.

You don't always know what you are going to do when you start, but once you get the green half built, you are visualizing all the different shots which might be played, and adjusting the contours accordingly.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 09:18:00 PM »
George,

Maxwell's "potato chip" greens were reflective of his style/theory on the function of putting surfaces, for putting, approaching and recovery.

While they're not templates, their general pattern would indicate that they were planned and crafted rather than found naturally.

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 10:33:49 PM »
Prairie Dunes has my favorite set of greens. While they are great, there is no way they are natural.
Like Tom said, Maxwell spent alot of time on site and while the site is full of rolling dunes, the greens feature beautiful small undulations and shelfs that are not necessarily native to the site.
I know for sure that devilish little shelf the size of a car hood back left on 13 can't be natural... there's no way Mother Nature can be that evil!!!
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 11:09:22 PM »
Of course I just realized that 13 is a Press hole, not Perry... sorry!
Well Mother Nature wouldn't be so evil to have that little back left shelf on 2, either!
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 11:22:31 PM »
George,

Yes they were planned.

I think they were a great way to eat up slope.  The Wood brothers according to Press Maxwell were some of the best at building the Maxwell greens

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 08:10:15 AM »
Has anyone any photo examples of these greens?

Thanks,
Ally

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 09:42:43 AM »
Clearly planned, and at some point, close to templates at least in later years.  While I obviously never met Perry, I spoke to Press once, and also had some writings of his and recollections of club members. 

I recall hearing or reading of him saying he couldn't hold a candle to his Dad and merely copied what his Dad tried to do more than invent.  One club member who had talked to him directly retold the story of Press calling the greens their "standard 3 mounder here, standard 2 mounder there, and that he was looking for a place to put the "wild" 4 mound green" on their course.

What is cute about this post is that when I started here over 10 years ago, most of the posters actually thought many greens were "found" contours, which is pure BS.  While it does happen, the numbers are even less than the % of golfers who regularly bomb 300 yard drives, and that is probably 0.0001% of our 25 Million Golfers.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 10:05:20 AM »
Has anyone any photo examples of these greens?

Thanks,
Ally












Jim Eder

Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 10:28:39 AM »

Jim Eder

Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 10:31:21 AM »
Here is a great link with amazing pics of Crystal Downs.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49858.0.html

Jim Eder

Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 10:35:52 AM »
BTW, I am not saying or implying that I know whether Crystal Downs greens are Maxwell greens or not.  Tom and others could shed light on that.  All I know is Crystal Downs is amazing and looking at the course and the greens is rather satisfying.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »
Thanks guys... Perfect

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 12:13:30 PM »
Jim,

RE CD, yes TD could shed some more light.  I played there with him, and from memory and my own eyeballs, I felt like in general, the front nine was more Mac and the back nine more Max.  I think the documentation shows Mac didn't really see the back nine, or at least as much.  A few greens on the back even showed up on other collaborations like the reverse shelf green at Melrose and some others at the UM course.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Eder

Re: Were Maxwell's Rolls planned?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 12:27:11 PM »
Jeff,

Thank you for the great info.  Much appreciated.