great par 5's

[Peter Galea]

Tom MacWood,
I've got to believe this hole is natural. Siwanoy CC is a Ross course in Bronxville, NY. I played it with Bill V and Geoff C this summer. The routing was outstanding. Art Hills did some bunker work and some other changes here and there, but I think this one was unchanged (besides bunker faces).
The fifth was another great par 5. Not sure if the photo is still on the page but I'll try it here.

[Peter Galea]

Damn these numbers!

Siwanoy sixth par 5

[Robert_Walker]

Because of No 8, Augusta National has the best collection of par 5's in the world, and No 13 is the best par 5 on the course.
I do not know of any course that has such a variety of so callled "3 shotters". 8 is great because hazards do not play a major part in the player's strategy. 8 is more of a bump and run hole than the other 3 par 5's.

[bill steele]

I thought I had read somewhere that Bethpage Black's #4 would be converted to a par 4 for the Open. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Matt Ward]

Bill:

The 4th at Bethpage Black will be a par-5 of about 530 yards for the 02 Open. The only hole reduced in par is the 7th -- it goes from a 575 yard par-5 to a 490(?) par-4.

Tim:

I'll respond to your interesting questions later today.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bill,
    I believe it ws #7 which will be converted to a par 4.

[Paul Perrella]

   Three of the most fun par 5 holes to play are;

  1. # 5 Lahinch
  2. # 3  Prestwick
  3. # 11 Waterville
 
  Tom MacWood,
      Absolutely agree about the 5's at The Golf Club.

  Matt Ward,

  Played the Black a few years ago but I remember hitting my second to #4 to the right of the green and making an easy 4. I have not played since the upgrade so if I need to go back please let me know and I will because I love the place.
           Paul

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

The 4th at the Black will be a pivotal hole in giving players the kind of momemtum they will need as they hit the stretch of holes #5 through #7 -- all good par-4's. That assumes no major misplays!

The fairway width will be the standard Open thing -- probably about 25 yards across. The key is hitting the tee shot as close as possible to the massive fairway bunkers that guard the left side. A slight draw can really set the player up to attempt a go at the green with the second shot. Given the elevated nature of the tee I'm sure most players will try to play a tee shot that is aggressive in order to score a birdie or possible eagle.

If you miss the fairway, either left or right, the type of lie you have will determine what club you can take to carry the cross-bunker. Keep in mind that rough has been extended on the far side of the cross bunker -- so just getting over the cross bunker will not automatically mean the player finds the fairway.

I can tell you honestly that if the player draws a tough lie off the tee the probability in carrying the cross bunker is indeed problematic. And, if you land in the cross bunker you will need Divine guidance to clear the high lip and THEN clear the frontal bunker and THEN hold the approach on the angled putting surface.

If the player opts to play short of the cross bunker after hitting the rough -- the 3rd shot will be from no less than 180 yards to a target that repels nothing less than an iron shot that drops softly out of the sky.

Players going for the green would be best served by playing their second wide to the right of the green in order to take the frontal bunker out of play. From that position the approach is far easier and the likelihood of birdie is enhanced greatly.

If you think you can reach the green in two you must hit a towering iron shot to handle the narrow putting surface. Go long and I as I said before you're deader than Elvis should the ball cascade down the far slope.

The 4th at the Black is supreme testament to Tillie's great imagination. I'm sure it will prove interesting to all players competing in the Open. In my mind, the Black only really begins at the 4th tee -- the first three holes are nothing more than just a warm-up to what comes ahead.

[sndhlz]

all 3 par fives at sand hills. they move in different directions and require different shotmaking and strategy. a great trio.

[Paul Richards]

Here's an interesting one:

Perhaps this is one of the shortest five pars anywhere (I
don't know of one shorter!).  The First hole at Broadmoor
in Seattle.

442-yard par 5?  No problem, right?

Wrong!  A fairway with more ripples than a potato chip,
and a green that's about 1500 square feet, with even more
ripples.

Very interesting starting hole!

[Brian Phillips]

Most of you have talked about courses in the US.  What about the 6th at Cruden Bay, Bluidy Burn.

Awesome matchplay hole..

[JohnV]

I'm not that sure that the Cardinal (3) at Prestwick is really that great anymore.  I recall playing it 3-wood, 3-iron or something.   I don't seem to think you can hit driver off the tee and it wasn't much Cardinal bunker really wasn't in play on the second shot.  Of course, that was in 1995 and my memory might be off a bit.

Also being a homer, I think that 14 and 18 at Pumpkin Ridge's Witch Hollow course are excellent holes.  14 is a perfect 4.5 at 470 yards, with the lake to the front, back and left of the green and the huge bunker to the right going for it in 2 is always a scary shot.  Of course, if you are like Tiger and play it 3-wood, 9-iron it might not be so tough, but even he made a 6 in one of his matches at the Amateur.  18 is a scary hole that I've made every number from 3 to 13 on.  I've seen 4 and 5 shot swings in 4-ball stroke play battles where all the players were 2 handicaps or better.  The tee shot looks much scarier than it is with a 40 yard wide fairway, but to really get there in two you want to hug the hazard on the left.  Then there is the hollow to the left of the green where I've seen good players such as Julie Inkster take 2 or 3 shots to get out.  Even the green is much tougher than it looks, especially on the back half.

13 at Bandon Dunes is great, along with at least 3 of the ones at Pacific Dunes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Robert Walker,

If # 8 at Augusta was located on any other course, do you think it would get any recognition at all ?

[Robert_Walker]

Pat Mucci,
..........whatever you say.......

[ChipOat]

15 at Pine Valley gets my vote - hands down.  Also, I've had more problems with #7 at National over the years than I would ever expect.  The 3rd shot from ANYWHERE on that hole (except when it's a putt) gives me fits - even long-left if the pin is back there.  I'm sure I've made more 4's on the original Road Hole than on NGLA's version (which I play a lot more often).

There's a bunch of others out there although 18 at Pebble is not in my Top 10 due to the trees in the fairway off the tee and in front of the green.  Final thought: A great par 5 strikes me as the hardest hole to design - not that great 4's and 3's are slam dunks.

[Allen Rebstock]

Haven't seen where anybody's mentioned the two par 5's at Shinnecock #5 &#16.  With the varying wind conditions on east end Long Island, both can be reached in two or both can be very unreachable in two. The 16th is one the great par 5's in American golf both strategically and visually. And with the clubhouse in full view in the backdrop it represents the orgins of golf in Americia.

The 18th at the National is another great Par 5. Again playing alongside the great clubhouse of the National

[BillV]

Haven't had much time here lately, but the two from Siwanoy are so wonderfully strategic and playable simultaneously.

No one has mentioned hte two on the back 9 at plainfield #12 and 16.  Restoration work will be underway at Plainfield for the fairway on 16 (John Lovito, have they started?).  Tee restoration and extension was basically completed when I was last there.  

12 interestingly enough was created from a 3 and a 4 from the original design.  Restoration of 12 green that was lost in the 1930-1950 period will be recovered and be stunning,  God, what a green complex.  The second shot on #12 is sublime when you rarely (Except Matt Ward    ) have a shot at it in two simultaneous with a really quality set of shot requirements for a layup and third shot!

[John_Lovito]

BillV,

Yes, they began working on the 16th about a month ago.  The most significant change to the hole will be rerouting the fairway left around the cross-bunkers.  The cross-bunkers are also being reworked.  The bunkers will be restored to have grass faced flashing rather than the current sand flashing.  

I’m not 100% sure, but I believe two long-lost fairway bunkers will be restored on the right side of the fairway.

Finally, the rear of the L-shaped bunker will be removed and a chipping/gathering area put in its place.

John

[Paul Perrella]

  One of the great par 5's not yet mentioned is the third at Fenway.

  Can a par 5 or any hole be considered superior based on how many ways it can be played. In my opinion it is the strategy of a hole from tee to green that elevates a hole to greatness.
 The 13th at my home course is just such a hole. It is generally played at 533 yards and is a dogleg to the right. We played a Texas scramble the other day(use the best tee shot and play your own ball from there) and no two players hit the same combination of clubs for their second and third shots. This was with 12 good players playing from virtually the same spot in the fairway. I myself have gone for this green in two with everything from a 6 iron to a three wood. I have played my second shot not going for the green with everything from a PW to a two iron. The green sits with a wetland to the right and a closely mown swale to the left. There is a deep dish in the middle right of the green making three putts (or more)possible from all pin placements. I have been fortunate to play many of the top courses in the world and our own #13 is one of the best.

[BillV]

Paul Perrella

Jim Engh told me he is very proud of the fact that the 5th at Sanctuary can be played 11 distinct ways!  That makes my head spin!  I'll have to look more closely when I get out there again. I didn't see that many.

[Will E]

#11 TPC Sawgrass
#6  Piping Rock
#11 Beverly
#16 & #11 Shinnecock
#10 Blackforest

[SPDB]

I was thinking about this question and trying to search my brain for an unconventional, unpredictable answer, and I think that #5 at Hartefeld is my answer.
any body familiar with it.

[abiggadike]

I'd like to throw in 8 West at Ridgewood Country Club....

About some of the others mentioned that I've seen/played:

I agree with 4 at Bethpage, definately my favorite hole on the course.

Wish I could remember 6 at Cruden Bay, it has been a while.  Loved the course though... care to try and remind me of it Brian?

And when I saw 8 at Augusta in person.. I was quite impressed.

Andrew

[Mike_Cirba]

Speaking of Ridgewood, I thought that #3 on the East was superb, with a fabulous green complex.  It also features a different twist on the "hell's half acre" complex, with a field of rough mounds replacing the normal bunkering strategy.

I'd also concur with SPDB that #5 at Hartefeld is one of the best holes I've played by Tom Fazio, and is a daring par five on great land that is well utilzed.  I would also say that #16 on the back nine with the skyline green is a beauty, as well.  In fact, 13 is pretty good also.  Gets me thinking that the par fives might be the standout holes at Hartefeld, but my favorite on that course is the long par four 17th.  

[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

I too enjoy the 8th (West) at RCC. The problem? It's time for trees to be cut down on the left side to encourage more aggressive driving on the hole. Too many players at the Senior PGA were forced to hit irons because of the claustrophic nature of the trees. The result? Usually, a pro forma march by all players in dealing with the hole.

Also the severly angled area just short of the green forces players to lay back to the 130-150 area before hitting their second shot. A good hole -- yes, but cutting some lumber would entice bolder play to get near the green in two blows for the biggest hitters.

SPDB:

The 5th at Hartefeld is a good choice, but where is the penalty for a missed second shot for those who go for it in two? The player can take advantage of the downhill fairway and as long as you don't fan the second shot you really don't have that much trouble to deal with.

No where in the same league as the 4th at Bethpage Black, in my opinion.