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John D. Bernhardt

great par 5's
« on: December 11, 2001, 03:52:34 PM »
The lido hole while a par 4 and its roots in the 14th at TOC made me think about great par 5's. any toughts out there in GCA land
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2001, 04:38:24 PM »
John:

Wait till next year when the pros encounter the 4th at Bethpage Black. Will they go for the green in two blows? Can they hold the green from such a distance given the elevated nature of the green and the front bunker? Anybody who flies the green will be deader than Elvis. :o

The chain reaction bunker that sits in the middle of the fairway will have some company because if any of the pros (minus the strongest players) gets entangled in the deep rough the opportunity to carry that bunker with your second shot may prove daunting to quite a few.

There aren't too many superb Tillie par-5's that offer as much demands / challenges as the 4th at the Black. It will certainly be something to see how they handle it. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Greg Stebbins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2001, 04:54:32 PM »
I played the black about a month ago and I noticed that they mowed out the back side of the 4th green to create a chipping area.  Not sure what effect this will have.  Those who go for the green in two will probably have their ball roll farther from the green on the mowed out area.  I am inclined to think that this may make it easier because it is a direct uphill chip shot from there.  However, if one should fly the ball over the green and land on the downslope behind it, who knows how far over the green the ball will go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2001, 05:00:54 PM »
John,
A favourite of mine is the fifth at PGA West, the hole requires a draw and then a fade to get home in two.  That is probably not completely true for those long hitters, but that is certainly what Dye intended.  His desire to force golfers to the requisite shots is no more exident then it is here.  
Regards
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2001, 05:16:10 PM »
There used to be a couple of good ones on the back nine at Augusta National GC. Who knows what they're like now...See "you can't stop change, can you."  ;D :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2001, 05:26:18 PM »
On a more serious note, the 2d at Talking Stick North is one of my favorite par 5s due to C&C's use of the fence boundary line that runs down the left side. You have a mile wide fairway on your tee shot but then if you want to go for it on your second shot the green lies just 10 yards or so from the OB boundary. Strong pucker factor there. Plus a neat little bunker guarding the right side, which makes even a short third a little dicey.  ;)    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2001, 05:29:38 PM »
Being a real homer, I would have to say that on a classic
course, Beverly CC  :)has as good a set of par-fives as
exists anywhere!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2001, 05:31:05 PM »
In a previous thread, I mentioned Spring Hill near Minneapolis
as having perhaps the best set of par fives on a modern
golf course. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Fred_C.

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2001, 05:35:04 PM »
For us humans, #4 at Merion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2001, 06:31:45 PM »
The 6th at Carnoustie has to included in any list of great part 5's.  Like the 2nd at Talking Stick North which Doug mentions above, the OOB fence along the left side of the hole becomes a real strategic element when playing your shot so as to leave the best angle for the approach.  Surely C&C had #6 at Carnoustie in mind when designing #2 at Talking Stick North.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2001, 06:34:21 PM »
While the sixth is the start of heaven, The 14th @ Pebble is a fav for the work of art known as the green. Getting up the hill 500+ yards ain't too bad either especially if you turn around and take in the view of the carmel highlands. Another great one looking back is the 5th at Cypress Point. The 12th at PG maybe the best spot for pure natural beauty @ sealevel. Others I'm happy remembering: the 8th at Blackwolf Run (hells Gate). The ninth at Dubbs Dread. 18th at SFGC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2001, 06:47:36 PM »
The 10th at Apache Stronghold should be on this list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert_Walker

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2001, 06:50:25 PM »
Augusta National has the best collection of par 5's in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2001, 07:06:53 PM »
John, the 18th at Pebble is a great par 5 and has been emulated on a lot of courses.  Not many with the Pacific Ocean as the "trouble left," but certainly can be replicated with a monster waste bunker, wetlands, pine forest, quarry, bayou, etc etc.  Build a super cape hole and tee it up!  OB right to keep 'em honest, and tightly bunkered (small) green right by the hazard.  Note:  this hole can be mirrored as well!  Since elevation change is not a factor, should work well in the Bayou Land! :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Hervochon

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2001, 07:13:06 PM »
What about Pine Valley's par 5's????  Especially numer 15!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2001, 07:19:38 PM »
Technology, for once, has helped make a better hole in the case of PB's 18th. It is now more reachable in two, lending more interest and strategy to the 2nd shot, IMNSHO.

Augusta's 13th will be an even better par 5 next year, just wait and see.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2001, 07:25:30 PM »
Robert Walker,

You bring up an interesting point.

# 13 and # 15 are famous for the drama created over the years, and the exposure they get on TV, even though TV doesn't provide all the information about the holes and their playability due to the missing third element/dimension.

# 2 and # 8 are unfamiliar to most people, and while I liked
# 2 for a variety of reasons, including its position in the play of the course, # 8 left me a little disappointed.  I won't say it seemed bland, but it was so much different than I had expected, and seemed quite benign.

If you said Augusta has three great par 5's I would agree, but what about # 8 places it so high in your evaluation ?

If Par 5's are extinct or becoming extinct, what can be done, other than lengthening them to help them retain their three shot flavor ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2001, 07:30:25 PM »
It is my firm belief that Sand Hills has the best collection of par fives in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2001, 07:38:48 PM »
I'm not sure what course has the best collection in the world, but two that are very near the top are The Golf Club and my choice for world best - Cape Breton.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good sets of par fives are tough to find
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2001, 07:47:02 PM »
Gene, Hard to argue with your point. While 1 and 16 have the WOW factor in spades,  the 14th may well be the most subtle hole on the entire course.

In fact, at least for me, the three shotters at Sand Hills are what separate it from many of the name links courses which fumble around with some indifferent par fives (Ballybunion, Turnberry, Portrush, etc.)

Waterville is one of the few links were the par fives really help its cause.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2001, 07:53:01 PM »
For those Australians out there:

Royal Melbourne West #4 - a great risk/reward par 5 which was fantastic during the 98 Presidents Cup (where it played as #2).  2nd shot requires a diagnol carry over the dogleg to a green perched in the corner of the property.  Fabulous hole.

Royal Melbourne East #17.  Has a great set of bunkers ready to catch a second shot mishit or where an incorrect decision has been made.

Victoria #9.  Very long par 5 where you hit your drive over the hill and into a valley, then face the choice of whether to lay up and ensure an easy 5, or attack a small green with a difficult surface to hold with a long iron.  Bunkering around the green is superb.  Victoria has an unusual routing, where the par 5's are the 8,9,17, and 18th holes respectively.

Huntingdale #14.  Only notable hole on the course IMHO.  Very very long at 555m.  Becuase it is so long, it seperates the short and long hitters, requiring each player to pick a strategy suited to their game.  Hit the green in two and a four is almost guaranteed, but if you take the conservative option, there is a water hazard to wreck your day if you hook or pull.

I don't think any sandbelt course has a wonderful collection of 5's, but there are a number of top holes on their own.  None of our courses can lay claim to a set equal or better to some of the top ones overseas IMHO.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2001, 08:05:22 PM »

Siwanoy's 18th
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"chief sherpa"

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2001, 08:25:20 PM »
Pete
It looks like great fun. Any idea if this is an example of the natural or the man-made contours? I might be mistaken, but aren't natural contours more interesting than man-made ones?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: great par 5's
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2001, 08:49:34 PM »
Robert Walker:

How good do you think Augusta's par fives are for the members?

Matt Ward:

I'm struck by your comments on #4 at Bethpage.  Can you share more about your thoughts on what may happen to Open contestants who miss the fairway?

Do you know how wide the fairway will be?  What kind of shot will contestants face who decide to layup short of the big cross bunker?  How far will it be into the green?  How risky will that shot be?  Do you think players who fail to carry the bunker on a more aggressive second will have any special problems going for the green on their third shot?

I'm hoping this hole will provide a lot of interest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Shane g (Guest)

Re: great par 5's
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2001, 02:48:45 AM »
Chris K, you missed a couple of sand belt classics:

6th hole at Commonwealth. One of the few genuine 3 shotters on the 'belt. Whilst two ball tearers can get you there on a good day, for the mortals its a classic test of strategy; drive in narrow fairway, second down the right (but not too far right) and third to tiny sloping green that is tough to hold. You earn your five on this hole. Honourable mention also to numbers 2 and 13 and the 'Wealth.

9th at Yarra Yarra. Downhill drive, uphill home. Can cut the corner to shorten the hole but much trouble lurks to the left. Only the brave (or very lucky) get home in two here. Tough green to hit with the third shot. Again, five is always a good score.

The great thing about the sand belt par fives is their ability to play from 4 1/2's to 5 1/2's depending on where the wind blows, and how firm the greens are.










« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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