[Mike Hendren]

Save for stupid trees, totally devoid of strategy.  Just don't hit it in the ocean.
Corridor of play is too narrow due to OB.
Fairway bunkers on the outside of the dogleg.
Fairway bunkers and trees provide easy aiming aids from the tee.
Not one but three stupid trees.
Visually cluttered by housing.
Historically plays second fiddle to the 17th in determining championships.

Seriously.

[John Kavanaugh]

In the last two groups alone, Tiger hit driver, Phil hit 4 iron and Wi hit 3 wood off the tee.  All three would have made birdie if Tiger had two putted.  That smells like strategy.

[Mike Hendren]

In the last two groups alone, Tiger hit driver, Phil hit 4 iron and Wi hit 3 wood off the tee.  All three would have made birdie if Tiger had two putted.  That smells like strategy.

If all options lead to the same result, is it really strategy?  Sounds more like accomodation.

Bogey

[Jim Nugent]

John, Phil hit iron because he was protecting his big lead.  That doesn't really reflect strategy from the hole.  It's just another par 5 where long-ball hitters, so long as they keep the ball in play, can hit two irons, have a wedge into the green, and a good chance at birdie.   

I don't know, but I bet Wi hit 3 wood for a similar reason: to keep the ball in play.  That left him a short iron second shot, and a wedge to the pin.  Does that mean #18 offers strategic options?  Again, long-ball hitters can play most par 5s this way. 

Bogey, seems to me #18 has more strategy now than it did 20 or more years ago.  Back then, virtually no one went for the green.  Now the ball flies further and reaching the green in two is a lot more viable. 

[Michael George]

While I usually love unusual features, I don't like the tree on that hole.  If the tree was removed, the players would have an incentive to use driver off the tee, which could allow them to get home in two, but also can bring more trouble into play.  I think you would see more eagles and bogeys and doubles if the tree was not there.  Now it is mostly a birdie or par hole - boring - as most guys hit an iron or fairway wood short of the tree, lay up and have a 10-15 birdie putt from above the hole.

[Jed Peters]

This thread, along with the people bashing 8 at pebble (and/or pebble in general) make me wonder why I'm a member of this site--or just crazy.

I've played it 2x in the last couple months, and it is a FANTASTIC golf hole, with tons of strategy.

We don't all hit 240 yard 4 irons, so some of us have to take driver. Do you play it safe and push it out right? (OB and Bunkers) Do you hit it over the ocean and play aggressively? (Brings ocean into play).

Second shot. Do you play aggressive and hit over the bunker on left? Perhaps bringing into issue a long bunker shot or pulling your shot and hitting into the ocean? Bail out and hit right increasing length of the shot and bringing rough/the green side tree/bunker at green/OB right into play?

Third shot. I recently had anywhere from an 8 iron to a PW into that green in my two recent plays. Now, Bogie, you've seen me play. I'm not (that big of) a hack. The pin was tucked front right, and back left.

Back left I overcooked my wedge and hit into the bunker left after hitting the green and spinning left.

Front right, the front green side bunker got me.

Yes, it's a VERY strategic golf hole, and one of the finest holes I've ever played.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wi stood on the 18th tee two strokes down knowing that Phil was in position to make no worse than par.  Why did he who averages 284.9 yards off the tee hit three wood?  It would seem that on a non-strategic hole he would blindly hit driver and go for the possible win.

Turns out he made the correct choice by hitting three wood and securing second by two shots.  He and Phil both made birdie on the hole.

[Garland Bayley]

Why are you people evaluating a hole based on how tour pros play it? That is truly a soulless exercise.

[Adrian_Stiff]

One of greatest holes in golf. I can only laugh when someone says its over rated. I wonder with this site sometimes, somebody here will probably prefer the 1st or 15th or 17th to the 18th.

[David Kelly]

In the last two groups alone, Tiger hit driver, Phil hit 4 iron and Wi hit 3 wood off the tee.  All three would have made birdie if Tiger had two putted.  That smells like strategy.

If all options lead to the same result, is it really strategy?  Sounds more like accomodation.

Mike,

With all due respect....that doesn't make sense.  

[Greg Tallman]

Save for stupid trees, totally devoid of strategy.  Just don't hit it in the ocean. or behind the trees, or too short to reach, or...
Corridor of play is too narrow due to OB. When is the last time you saw someone hit it OB there?
Fairway bunkers on the outside of the dogleg. Fair enough
Fairway bunkers and trees provide easy aiming aids from the tee. Strange critique
Not one but three stupid trees. I say they add strategy that a similarly placed bunker, regardless how penal could not equal
Visually cluttered by housing.Seriously doubt many a human being stand on the tee and even giev the houses a second thought
Historically plays second fiddle to the 17th in determining championships.

You forgot to add the rocks that kick tournament losing tee shots back into play
Seriously.

[PThomas]

I've played it 2x in the last couple months, and it is a FANTASTIC golf hole, with tons of strategy.

We don't all hit 240 yard 4 irons, so some of us have to take driver. Do you play it safe and push it out right? (OB and Bunkers) Do you hit it over the ocean and play aggressively? (Brings ocean into play).

Second shot. Do you play aggressive and hit over the bunker on left? Perhaps bringing into issue a long bunker shot or pulling your shot and hitting into the ocean? Bail out and hit right increasing length of the shot and bringing rough/the green side tree/bunker at green/OB right into play?

Third shot. I recently had anywhere from an 8 iron to a PW into that green in my two recent plays. Now, Bogie, you've seen me play. I'm not (that big of) a hack. The pin was tucked front right, and back left.

Back left I overcooked my wedge and hit into the bunker left after hitting the green and spinning left.

Front right, the front green side bunker got me.

Yes, it's a VERY strategic golf hole, and one of the finest holes I've ever played.

i gotta agree with Jed here Mike...and i think that the trees add greatly to the strategy

[Mike Hendren]

David, strategy to me implies there should be some risk to be assumed with a corresponding reward for having successfully negotiated it.  Did Tiger gain advantage by hitting driver?  Did Phil settle for par by hitting three irons?  Did Wi attempt the best of both worlds by taking 3-wood off the tee?  Options and strategy aren't the same thing.

For us mere mortals, only the Mighty Mathew Ward can likely hit this green in two and even then few pins are likely accessible for a legitimate eagle putt, notwithstanding the relatively small green size.  

Greg, even the world's best golfers like something to aim at.  That's why the bunkers and trees are helpful to them.  The 3rd plays much easier now that Arnold et all have placed new bunkers down the right hand side of the fairway (trust me the hillside over there was a much tougher second than those bunkers will ever be) to provide any number of aiming visuals for all but the longest of hitters.  Also, I'd be willing to bet that at least one player out of the average foursome goes OB at 18.  

Adrian, I DO prefer the 17th to the 18th.

Garland, I agree that discussion should not be limited to professionals, but for everyone else the hole is even more one-dimensional and as a result, penal instead of strategic.

 

How about this thought:  Maintain the entire width of the hole from shoreline to cart path as fairway.  Throw in a single modest fairway bunker reachable from the tee about 1/3 of the way from the shoreline to cartpath and a nice principal's nose 50 yards short of the green.  The crowned green is the most underrated feature of the hole and is its real defense against the best player - you simply don't see many putts made there.  

Jed, you do indeed have game.  Also, I am on the record numerous times that Pebble Beach Golf Links is a better golf course than Cypress Point Club.  Take out the new fairway bunkers on 3 and 15 and it's a 10 in my book. 

Paul, so suddenly the treehouse wants more framing on 17 and likes the trees on 18.  What's the world coming to?

Finally, I read this weekend that even Jesus used hyperbole from time to time so I why can't I?  Beside, it's better than discussing the type of tea the Rolling Stones drank or another ready, fire, aim post from our boy Anthony.

Bogey

[Garland Bayley]

...
For us mere mortals, only the Mighty Mathew Ward can likely hit this green in two and even then few pins are likely accessible for a legitimate eagle putt, notwithstanding the relatively small green size.  
...

Na, he'd take three drives just to get one in play, so two is out the window already.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland, I agree that discussion should not be limited to professionals, but for everyone else the hole is even more one-dimensional and as a result, penal instead of strategic.
...
Bogey

Cape holes are not strategic? Someone needs to break the news to Tom Doak.

[PThomas]

.  

Paul, so suddenly the treehouse wants more framing on 17 and likes the trees on 18.  What's the world coming to?

Bogey

I speak only for myself Bogey...i am nowhere near as anti-tree as others...sometimes i think members of that community need to learn to hit the ball straighter!

[Howard Riefs]

A great hole. Even a few pros agree, per this timely Golfweek article:

“It’s an unbelievable final hole to hit good shots on,” said Geoff Ogilvy.

“I said, ‘Wow, how great is this?’ ” said Baddeley, who was given an exemption into the 2000 U.S. Open here and is playing the AT&T for the fifth time. “It’s a great risk-reward. You can play it as a three-shotter every time, hit iron, iron, iron, or you can hit driver and try to get it down there. It’s a great finishing hole.”

“It’s pretty awesome,” said Chris Stroud, who is playing this tournament for the sixth straight year and envies those colleagues who’ve played it so many more times. “To me, it’s just a perfect fit to an awesome golf course.”

“Definitely one of the best driving holes - and I believe one of the best finishing holes - there is,” Stroud said. “It’s a par 5, it has a lot of excitement, both the first and second shots are tough, and if you pull it off, you have a good chance for a 3.”

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/10/mccabe-pebble-beachs-seaside-18th-has-no-rival/

[Sebonac]

I agree with Michael....It is like a long, flat lawn...once you get past the tee shot...with a very uninteresting green complex.  And for most amateurs it is always a three shot hole.  Just don't blow your second shot.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Michael....It is like a long, flat lawn...once you get past the tee shot...with a very uninteresting green complex.  And for most amateurs it is always a three shot hole.  Just don't blow your second shot.

Kind Mssr. Sebonac. I know it's not entirely proper to use the site this way, but perhaps could I play your course? I would be entirely grateful. And, if you can get me on your two neighboring courses, I will sing your praises forever.

[Jud_T]

IMO, as far as the oceanfront holes are concerned, the stretch of 17 & 18 aren't in the same league as 8-10.   18 is a much more interesting and strategic hole for the guys going for it in two than for the rest of us.

[Jim Nugent]

Wi stood on the 18th tee two strokes down knowing that Phil was in position to make no worse than par.  Why did he who averages 284.9 yards off the tee hit three wood?  It would seem that on a non-strategic hole he would blindly hit driver and go for the possible win.

Turns out he made the correct choice by hitting three wood and securing second by two shots.  He and Phil both made birdie on the hole.

I think both golfers were playing defensively.  Phil wanted to protect his lead.  Wi wanted to protect his second place position.  More than one golfer made double there.  Both wanted to take that out of the picture.  As on many par 5s, pros can play defensively and still make birdie.  

I haven't played the hole.  But Jed's description makes it sound more penal for the average guy than strategic.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Bogie - best line to come out of this thread is your "options and strategy aren't the same thing".  True -- and it highlights the fact that  over the years many a discussion/ranking has been marred by a belief that they ARE the same thing. 

Peter

[Tim Leahy]

Best finishing hole in golf. Plenty of options but you can't ignore the ocean. Rewards good shots and penalizes bad ones.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jed,

You are right it is a great hole.

Forgive Bogie, he is delusional at times. 

Bob

[David Kelly]

David, strategy to me implies there should be some risk to be assumed with a corresponding reward for having successfully negotiated it.  Did Tiger gain advantage by hitting driver?  Did Phil settle for par by hitting three irons?  Did Wi attempt the best of both worlds by taking 3-wood off the tee?  Options and strategy aren't the same thing.

I don't really think you can judge whether a hole is strategic  based on the results of 3 players.  But for argument's sake let's say you can.  What would be the actions of Mickelson, Wi and Woods on a given Par 5 that would prove that the hole was strategic.

That said, the same hole allowed two very different strategic approaches by Tiger and Phil.

Phil knew before he teed off that he was 2 strokes ahead of Wi with both having only the 18th and his strategy was to avoid a penalty shot off the tee at all costs which he did by hitting a 4 iron, knowing that the 4 iron was still going to allow him to reach the green in regulation with a short iron if he hit two good shots.  Phil played it safe but was still able to play the hole in such a way that a birdie was still possible.

Tiger with nothing to lose and trying to make as low a score as possible was able to have an eagle putt by hitting Driver, 3-wood even though he risked the ocean and o.b with his driver and the ocean with his second shot 3-wood.  Tiger took a risk, it paid off and gave him a shot at eagle and a two putts for birdie.  

 

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