Report from Seminole

[Adam_Messix]

I had the opportunity to play Seminole today to see the new greens that were redone this summer.  The new tifeagle surfaces may be the finest bermuda greens I have ever seen, they are very fast and for now extremely firm (and there has been quite a bit of rain down here recently) and contrary to the reports I had heard, it doesn't appear as if any of the slopes have been tamed.    

As a rule, each of the greens have been enlarged some, taking them closer to the edges of the bunkers and the green fall offs. There were a number of shots that were fed off the greens by the green contouring, in a manner similar to Pinehurst #2, something I had seen little of in the past.  Several of the greens were noticably enlarged, #6, #8, #10 (it's very easy to putt it into the lake and a shot was fed into the water today off the green), & #18 (the green definitely has a false front now)  The back left of #14 green now feeds the ball into the left bunker whereas it used to feed balls toward the center of the green -- this green is still as scary from back to front as ever.  As far as if they were returned to "original specs", no one seemed to know.  

They have planted some sea grapes down the right side of #3 to discourage players from cutting the corner and #4 is now out of bounds.  

Several foursomes of touring pros (Norman, Price, Parnevik, Brown, Johannson to name a few) played Seminole last week and only one broke 70 so the course still stands up.  

[MTWilkinson]

Was a professional architect involved with the green restoration at Seminole?

[redanman (Guest)]

How does the overall appearance of the course appear to previous visits?  The Gestalt, if you will?

I know about cameras in the clubhouse, but any photodocumentation??

[Adam_Messix]

Seminole  has opened up a bit since my first visit of 6 years ago.  I just love the sweeping vistas from all over the property.  The views from up on the 4th and 6th fairways and the 12 tee do make me stop a moment and enjoy it all.

Brian Silva came in a few years ago and gave many of the bunkers more of a grass faced look....if memory serves, I think they were flashed all the way to the top of the bunker when I first played there (Mr. Wilson I presume)  To me the place looks more in the Ross style now than when I first played it.  

The biggest change though was the greens...I think they may have enlarged the pond on 7 a bit and the little ditch on the right side of 14 is definitely bigger.

MT--
I will find out whether Brian was involved in any of the greens changes or not.  

[Will E]

Adam,
Do the bunkers really look better to you? I thought that the flashed bunkers were perfect for the beachfront setting Seminole enjoys. I always considered the bunkering at Seminole one of it's finest assets.
I'll reserve judgement as I haven't seen the course since the bunker restoration has been completed.
Like Shinnecock, I thought Seminole shared a rough look. Has that changed ?

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I thought I had your email address but I can't find it. Could you email me at tpaul25737@aol.com

Thanks

[Jeff Mingay]

Brian Silva did indeed oversee the recent work on Seminole's greens.

[Ran Morrissett]

A portion of the left side of the 3rd green was propped up  and the same for the front of the 2nd green and maybe the front of the 11th as well. One other green on the back may have been slightly altered too to accomodate the faster green speeds.

They recovered a hole location on the left side of the 3rd green by doing so.

Silva did the work.

I am forever amazed that anyone would prefer to play No.2 to Semiole on a regular basis - Seminole possesses a greater variety of challenges within its design, and when you add the wind, the decision becomes simple, at least for me (and Hogan   ).

I wonder what Ross would say based on how the two courses play today?

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam/Ran;

Geoff Shack's book clearly showed that the flashed sand bunkers were indeed created by Donald Ross, and seemed to fit the site brilliantly.  They almost emulated the oceanfront waves, even if they were certainly different than what we think of as a Donald Ross bunker.

Therefore, I have to admit to being a bit concerned to hear that Brian Silva's recent restoration created more of a grass-faced look.  Do you know if they used old pictures in an attempt to "restore" what was there in the past, or is it just based on the idea that Ross=grass-faced bunkers?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

It was my understanding that not all bunkers were flashed, but on certain holes like # 2, and # 11 one can see how they could have been designed that way.

I think some bunkers that were originally grass faced or partially grass faced may have evolved from years of edging and maintainance practices into flashed  configurations.

Hence one couldn't fault the club for a true restoration, no matter what the evolved look.

[GeoffreyC]

Ran

I couldn't agree more about wanting to play Seminole over #2.  Seminole offers the best combination of fun and intensity. Mix in the site and it is HEAVEN.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I guess that's my question.  Was the "restoration" based on pictures of how the course used to be, or was it based on some general view of what a Ross bunker looks like?

On page 154 of Geoff's book, there is a 1920's picture of the 17th at Seminole that seems to be rather revealing.  The caption reads, "Ross used a different style of bunkering at Seminole, with capes and bays and sand flashed in the faces.  There has long been a misconception that Dick Wilson (whose work I greatly respect, by the way - MC) was responsible for this look at Seminole, but this photo from the 1920s clearly shows that it was an intended look from the beginning."

It's interesting to look at Geoff's book and see old pics of other Ross courses that are hardly "grass faced".  Have a look at the pics of Wannamoisset, Oakland Hills, and even Pinehurst #2, and it makes one wonder if we really haven't totally over-generalized and stereotyped his bunkering work in recent years on various "restoration" efforts.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

There is 1929 aerial photogaph of Seminole in Brad Klein's Ross biography and it clearly shows the entire course had flashed bunkering -- and hell of a lot of them. If I'm not mistaken Silva said he had very little or no historical documentation to go by and that the club was very keen on introducing the grass faced look -- possibly for maintenance reasons? I believe Shackelford's and Klein's photos are recent discoveries or post-Silva discoveries.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike,

It appears to me as if the bunkers are still contoured in such a way that they still have an ocean wavy type of appearance even though they are not flashed all the way to the top anymore.  I don't have my Donald Ross book sitting here in front of me (it's sitting in my bedroom in MD) so I cannot agree or disagree about the pictures in Brad's book.  

Shooter,
I'm not sure which style of bunker I prefer for Seminole....However, I do prefer the grass look on #11 with the bunker about 50 yards short of the green.  They look like a pair of spectacles and they make a great aiming point for the tee shot.  

Ran,
You are definitely right about the back left of #3 green, there's a hole location back there now that wasn't there before (it was there yesterday.  If there's been a change to #2, it's real subtle....ditto #11, the front may have been raised very little.  #13 & 14 are as severe as ever...the green in question may be #16 as I had a putt across the green that seemed to break less than I remembered from past expereinces.  

As far as Pinehurst #2 vs. Seminole goes.....I think that under typical cirumstances, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Pinehurst #2 is a resort course that receives a lot of play and is not kept in prime condition for very long periods of time (e.g. the fairways there in Nov. 2001 were quite a bit longer in height than you would prefer to see) and the G-2 bent grass greens require a lot of extra maintenance that don't allow to be in prime condition for extended periods of time.  Seminole on the other hand is a private club that is closed for 5 months every year that receives little play even when open (although it's more than in the past) and is almost always in prime condition when I play there.

Now, given all things being equal....Seminole is as good a test of controlling your golf ball in terms of curve and trajectory that I've played.  Hogan said that he thought he was striking the ball best when he was able to control the trajectory.  It's also a great test of sand play as it's almost impossible to stay out of the 193 bunkers.  It makes great use of limited room and topography the site has.  

Pinehurst #2 on the other hand is a great at seeing how well you are really striking the golf ball because a mis-struck or mis-considered shot will be shedded off the greens.  As seen in the US Open, it's neat to see how many options the chipping areas around the greens provided.  It's also amazing to think that other than the 4th and 5th holes, #2 was built on a relatively ordinary piece of property.  

Take your pick on what kind of course you would prefer, I can easily understand why people prefer Seminole but getting Pinehurst #2 in peak condition may be as good as golf gets, it's a shame that it's almost never that way.  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Ran, This was not a tough chioce for me either. I will play Seminole every round for life and feel blessed. It has it all. I am very interested in the bunker issue too. Were any pictures taken to show the new work.

[BillV]

Even if they Penn G-2 the greens at Seminole (Which I am on record as sending Pinehurst #2 over the top), this choice is a no brainer.  Seminole is in my personal top 5.

It is one of the best routings in the world, it has wonderful individual holes and greensites and Patrick's WIND!

That's even without the East Coast Atlantic Ocean, warm sea spray and Palm Treeeeeeeeeeeeee effect.    Not to mention that I personally am addicted to clubs with Indians (I don't care if that's not p.c. anymore) in the club logo.

[BillV]

John B

Cameras are a very touchy subject at Seminole.  Last time I was there I forgot to take my camera out of my club bag and worried the whole time some one would see it in the locker room. (I never used it, BTW.)

Most pictures out of Seminole are with the club's permission as I understand it.  They are very very nice there, but very private.

[GeoffreyC]

The bunkering shown on p190 of Brad's book looks outstanding and somewhat different from today.

I don't recall the cross/carry bunkering off the tee on #7 shown in the aerial.  Were they taken out or is it my premature alzheimer's kicking in? A few additional bunkers seem to be taken out  (#15?)

The aerial shows the 18th green fairly close to the dunes.  How far was it moved? Last year the false front was clearly in play on 18 green.  In fact, in firm conditions I could see a ball rolling back 30 yards down into the bunker short right of the green.  In the aerial, it looks more like a carry bunker short of the green.

I agree 100% with Bill.  In my book, Seminole is absolutely one of the 5 best combination golf/experiences available.

[Ran Morrissett]

Adam, Suppose you could have the first tee time for a week at either Pinehurst or Seminole (that way, the resort aspect and five hour rounds at Pinehurst are nullified). And suppose Pinehurst was in as good a shape as Seminole. Where would you rather play?

For me, it is Seminole because it can change so much day to day. Given the firmness of the greens at No. 2, it doesn't matter where the day's hole locations are  - I'm hitting for the middle of each green, day after day.

But at Seminole, in that same week if I get lucky with a little "breeze", I could have as much as five different clubs into many of the greens. That difference in challenge each and every day gives Seminole the advantage, at least in my book.


Geoffrey/Bill, GolfWeek doesn't seem to share your enthusiasm - wonder why  Seeing Seminole 5 spots BEHIND SFGC - can you guys do something about that before the next February Golfweek rankings come out ?


As for the motivating factors behind Silva's work, I obviously don't know any specific marching orders but I do know that Brian Silva and the board at Seminole are particularly aware of the playing angles that Ross gave Seminole and as such they are keen in maximizing them where possible.

For instance, a green like the 12th had a narrow front right "Wilson" neck but Silva enlarged/restored it to its broader footprint with the greater variety of hole locations that Ross originally gave it.

Another example is Silva's recapturing more of the back right rear of the 13th green, with a resulting superior hole location that had been lost over time. Trying to cut a ball into such a scintilating hole location (especially in the breeze) is surely a superb way to identify a player from a mere ball striker. No wonder Hogan loved it so!

On a side note, I wonder if the playing angles at Seminole impacted Pete Dye and his design philosophy more than any other course in the world?

I have never seen him acknowledge such but that's still my hunch. Certainly his love/appreciation of the course is well known.

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

As Tom MacWood referenced in Brad Klein's book, there appears to be a conflict between the picture on page 190 and the caption on page 191.

Having played Seminole over the last 40 or so years, I may be commiting heresy, but I don't think it matters much.
The design is so terrific, that in combination with the wind, it's got to be one of the best golf designs and golf experiences in the world.  

Flashed, partially flashed or grassed banked bunkers make little difference in the enjoyability of playing the golf course.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

With research, I believe you will find that some of the green slopes were altered.

[Adam_Messix]

Ran,

You are right in that I would probably rather have a week of the first starting time at Seminole over Pinehurst #2 but it would be a tough choice.  As an example of what you have pointed out:  last year on different days on #10 I had driver-3 iron on the first day and driver-wedge the second.  

However, Pinehurst #2 seems to nibble shots away so quickly under calm conditions.  The options around the greens are really incredible and to see different people play the same shot in totally different ways (and both work) is amazing.  

As I seemed to point out, picking out a course I enjoy more out of two is really grasping at straws.    

[jim_lewis]

In my view, Pinehurst #2 is Ross's best, hands down. To me, there is no better day in golf than the occasional good round on #2. I don't recall ever being disappointed in the conditions and I don't agree that the green speeds are over the top. However, twice a month is often enough for me to get my dose of humility from #2.  If I were to choose a Ross course to play 3-4 times a week on a regular basis it would be Wannamoisett before Seminole. I just don't share Ran's infatuation with sea-side (windy) courses.  

Ran:

I am happy with GOLFWEEK's ranking of Seminole. When are you guys at GOLF going to correct your gross underrating of Wannamoisett?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

My question referred to Geoff Shack's book...not Brad's.  Since I know that I'm receiving Brad's book as a Christmas gift from a friend, I have to admit that I don't own it yet.  

As far as the bunkering style, I guess we have to have a friendly disagreement.  Frankly, I DO care, simply because it appears that the wavy, flashed bunkering that Ross created was not only rather distinctive for him and historically interesting, but also because of the way it congruously seemed to "fit" the oceanfront site.  

Then again, it's the same reason that I was upset that the bunkers at Merion were modernized, the same reason the Geoffrey Childs was pissed at the inept bunker restoration of the bunkers on the front nine at Yale, and it's the same reason that I'm sure you or I would be against someone deciding that the wonderful pits are Garden City should be in any way changed from their inherent historical look, purpose, irregularity, and severity.  

If the "look" of hazards isn't important, or psychologically neutral, then let's just cut corners and make them all rectangular sand boxes.  I know you wouldn't agree with that!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I don't think you'll be disappointed by the way the bunkers look, but you'll have to judge for yourself.