[ChrisB (Guest)]

I don't know, guys...I played 3 tournament rounds at The Preserve in October and found it to be much better than one would think by reading this thread.  I saw a very good set of par 3's (6,4,5,and 9 irons), especially #6, a reverse-redan-like par 3 of 200 yards, and #14, with a low hollow in the middle of the green drawing balls away from the side pin positions.  I also thought the par 5's #8 and #17 both had interesting bunkerless greensites and flowed well around the site's central foothill.  There were some ordinary par 4's, but #9, #11, #15, and #18 were all especially good, particularly #11 where every advantage is gained by hugging the right side of the right-to-left sloping fairway cose to the fairway bunker to get the best angle into the green, angling front right to back left with deep bunker left.

The greens had interesting contours which were accentuated by their firmness and speed; they were the firmest greens I've played this year.  The fairways were in excellent condition (which made it a little easier to spin the ball into the greens) but were too soft; for example, the par-5 8th hole clearly called for a running shot into the raised green (very hard to hold), but the fairway short of the green was too soft to rely on any sort of bounce (in fact, the rough gave you more bounce than the fairway).

But it's not like this course needs a major overhaul.  Widening the landing area on #1 would make it a good opener, because the saddle green is a good one.  #10 is indeed a yawner, but tries to make up for it with a boldly contoured green.  #3, #5, #7, and #12 are ordinary par 4's with moderately interesting greens that could be improved somehow.

But this glass is 3/4s full, guys, not 1/4 empty.  As far as giving it a 4 on the Doak scale, I just can't imagine that Doak himself would give it lower than a 7; it is a very good course, just not world class.  But rather than lamenting that fact, why not offer concrete suggestions as to how to improve the course?  It's easy to say what a course seems to lack, harder to say what should have been done there instead.

[Gib_Papazian]

Kevin,
Tough to follow the logic in making a comparison between La Rinconada and The Preserve in terms of dollars spent for product received.

"La Rinckydink" is set in the center of a residential community and one of the very few games in town for those who do not want to fight the hideous nightmare of South Bay traffic for a few holes after work. It is a "country club" and taken for  what it is, the facility and golf course are not bad.

By the standards of this site, it rates a 4.5 but at least is free of completely objectionable holes - even when surrounded by ugly ranch style houses in a grossly inflated area. We'll see how many more 200,000 dollar memberships they are going to sell. Los Altos - a "4" at best with some pure sh*t - sold some memberships before the crash for $450,000. Oh, let's not forget the absurd monthy on top of that.

But the subject is The Preserve. This is not the kind of club where you either have to pony the ducats or get shut out in the neighborhood. This development is positioned to attract disgressionary income. A private enclave destination that is inconvenient to get to for anyone - even if once you arrive the payoff is an ethereal atmosphere.

Remember, Cordevalle is 30 minutes from Silicon Valley and a better track and overall facility.

To answer Ran's question, I think the key to reinventing The Preserve will be a bit of both. Men and women with REAL discriminating tastes will buy into it if the golf course is inspiring. Not hard. Maybe not even "challenging," but there has to be some magic there. Maidstone magic without the beach club. The drive from the major population center is roughly the same.

Start out with fixing the course - and who cares who redesigns it? ONLY RESULTS MATTER. The next David Kidd perhaps? What is in a name anyway?

I've been critical of Nicklaus in the past, but the last effort was good enough to at least get his ideas on what is to be done.

And Barny (AKA John) the routing is fine. The design is the problem. It has nothing to do with class envy or who plays the golf course be they Dink's, Yuppies, Hippies or snotty Armenians.

Now, for investor return: Contrary to what you heard Ran, I read that on average, Weiskopf's designs fetch the highest return, but the mathematics may be skewed because he does fewer courses than Jack. Correct me if I am wrong, but the average person in America has one testicle and one breast.

Off the subject -and I apologize for the ramble - but I feel compelled to point out that Weiskopf's Lahontan was wonderfully well done. It was positioned for the same market (actually more expensive), is harder to get to, and the season in Truckee,CA is only 5 months long.

Yet, they have had little trouble keeping it going after the crash.

Sooooooo, evidently people will tolerate a short golf season in the West for something special. How the proximity to ski areas factors in I have not really considered.

The point is that Lahontan is also - in my judgement - a more enjoyable course than The Preserve on less spectacular property.

The long and short of it is still the same. If you build it, the people with taste will come, followed by the wannabees who only have a glimmer of understanding of what makes the course special. All they know is they are buying a wildly expensive second home in a prestigious neighborhood . . . . a bit like social-climbing wine drinkers with only quasi-educated pallettes.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Gib, My mention of La Rinconada was simply that people would pay a lot to join a club even if the course is a dog track.  Your point is well taken that it is conveniently located, but in my mind it was just illustrative of the lack of discriminating taste among the monied class of Silicon Valley.  

I didn't even want to throw Los Altos into the discussion because its tariff was ridiculous by any standard...$400K for a marginal course and NO RANGE!  Just goes to prove that location, location, location work with golf courses as well.  But it was a bargain at $275K back in the early 90s for a friend of mine.

I'd keep my eye on Cordevalle...that place has all the makings of a disaster in process.  A high % of the memberships are corporate, and you know what's happened with corporate spending in the valley recently.  Just take a pass through the locker room...you'll notice an increasing number of lockers with the name plates removed (and no new names added). Maybe its just that members are deciding not to spring for the monthly locker fee, but it's only a matter of time before the Silicon Valley Banks and other patrons turn the spigot off.

My point was simply that if the economic bubble had continued The Preserve would have had much more success on the membership and real estate front.  That point is obvious, but I wanted to make it clear that in my opinion the economy has had a much bigger impact on the project than the marginal golf course.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Point well taken . . . . . but Cordevalle is in a precarious position ONLY due to its focus on the corporate memberships.

That said, it is still a terrific golf course on a good piece of ground in a convenient location. Okay, let us suppose the corporate membership sales start to slow . . .  so what?

There are still 100,000 Rich Goodale's and Huckaby's in the area who would join if the membership was reduced to a level close to reasonable. In that area "reasonable" is a relative term.

If we have a really bad recession, they can keep it afloat by repositioning it as a CCFAD. Look at Cinnabar. If you find the right price level, the people will slap down the plastic. Maybe they don't cut a fat hog on the deal, but it will keep going until better times arrive.  Plus, it did not cost a fortune to build it.

Speaking of, the newest entrant in the upscale club race is Boulder Ridge. We shall see how it does. I'm going to try to go out there with Stettner and Neal Meagher on Thursday. They want $164,000 plus monthly's plus food and bev minimums.

But the Preserve is a LONG drive from even Pebble Beach. It is not like I can call Goodale and Huckster and say "let's run out to the Preserve for a quick round." If you are going to build an expensive course in a remote location, make sure it is good!!!!!!

Especially when the property is stellar.

Pasadera might not be long for this world either - but mostly because it is a hideous golf course. Even the best clubhouse I've seen on a Modern Course in years was not enough to attract monied investors.

Another big dough development that is imploding under the weight of its own short-sightedness.

[THuckaby2]

My painful plight re private golf has never been so eloquently stated.  Yes, "affordable" is a relative term, but when they are charging $100K for Almaden CC and $187K for the new Boulder Ridge, on top of the very correct figures Gib and Kevin state, well... you can see how reality is here in the Silicon Valley.

Boo hoo....

As for the Preserve, this is very interesting.  What was Mr. Huntley's take?

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

I swear the attitude from the go was doomed. Why, Who and  how does an entity justify the stated goal of being better and more exclusive than CPC. Good Luck!
I will say this about the long ride to the course. It is only magical at sunrise and sunset. And I mean Beeyouteefull  :-*Otherwise it's just a long trek

[Jim Dirksma]

I understand that The Preserve is really hurting on real estate sales.  The first phase sold approximately 120 lots out of 180, but the second phase isn't moving at all.  Are they moving forward on the clubhouse?

[Gib_Papazian]

Huckster,

Excuse me . . .  . $187,500 . . . don't forget about the $500

As to The Preserve . . . . the thing that continues to bother  me is the lack of width and strategic options.

If you have the once-in-a-lifetime luxury of 22 thousand acres to work with, why on Earth would you not introduce some complex strategies??

Even with the current routing, there was plenty of room to nudge the fairways out a bit and install some texture and content . . . .  

[THuckaby2]

Muchas gracias, Gib.  I figured if someone was willing to fork over close to two hundred thousand freakin' dollars, the exact specifics were trivial.  But you are correct and Rocky Garcia isn't gonna let that half-K slide.

Word is that they have decided to allow people to finance the fees, since their initial system (give me your money, do as I say) seems to have only drawn less than 20 takers.

I drive buy the course every week day and I have seen people playing it exactly ONCE.

TH

[Jim Dirskma]

Gib and Tom:

What's the report on Bpulder Ridge?  I've heard there are several horrible holes, high tension wires running through the course, and 50 compression Cayman balls on the 200 yard range...for $187,500K?  You gotta be kidding.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Jim:
To summarize our groups feelings on Boulder Ridge: It's the second best private club in the South Bay (CordeValle being the best).
The setting of the golf course high atop a ridge with 360 degree views of the Santa Cruz mountains, downtown San Jose and the rest of metro San Jose is truly spectacular. The land was not ideal for golf, with very steep slopes and some major rock outcroppings bringing severety to many holes. To be honest, the land Boulder Ridge occupies should probably never been developed into a golf course.
It was, however, and the result is surprisingly good on a number of levels. There is no housing, so golf drove development. You don't see houses, you don't see buildings. We walked 18, and while I'm not sure I would do it again, the routing is certainly not bad. There are no disaster holes, no holes that should be bombed and started over. The conditions were sterling (though with 26 members they should be).
Pros:
The greens are really good, especially well-designed as a member's course. Almost every green had a series of humps and ridges that golfers will be able to use as they learn the details of the layout. The greens really made golf at Boulder Ridge a matter of inches, and imagination in the short game will be rewarded.
There are some really interesting fairway contours that feed off the requisite containment mounding. Like the greens, the fairways will have bounces that strike golfers as fair or unfair depending on their luck.
The setting creates some stunning greensites, most notably number 12, a par four whose green is set "on the edge of the world" with a gorgeous oak in the background.
Cons:
The land is so severe that many of the holes are wedged in the sides of hills. Fairways often sloped to the same collection area, and I would be concerned about conditioning when there are more members all hitting out of the same spot.
The bunkering, save for two examples, is vapid. Round, boring pits in the fairways, snakey things up by the greens. Paging Todd Eckenrode, Todd Eckenrode, do you copy?
The electric wires are ugly, but I wasn't that putt off by them.
There were no drivable par 4's, and from the #2 tees, no approaches into a 4 that was more than an 8-iron.
Too many collection areas are deisgned around drains.
The mounding rarely works.

There are some really cool holes at Boulder Ridge. Number 8 stands out, a par four that weaves through rocks reminiscent of the Boulders in Arizona. 11, a 230 yard par 3, has tees scattered across a hillside allowing for many differing takes on the same hole. 16 has a great bunker back right that almost screams of PGA West, deep and forboding, though the shaping is a little bland.

All in all, Boulder Ridge is all about the greens. They make the golf course, and members should have a blast directing irons away from the flag and waching a ridge funnel the ball towards the hole. All in the group, Gib, Goodale, Meagher, Cook and myself would go back. I think.

[Jim Dirksma]

Jeff:

Thanks for the report.  I'm playing there next week (weather permitting).

You note that it is the 2nd best private club in the South Bay - did you include Stanford in your count?

Also, I've heard from three pros (none of which affiliated with CordeValle) that CordeValle is WAY BETTER than Boulder Ridge.  How do you compare and contrast the two?

[Jeff_Stettner]

Jim:
I did not include Stanford; I guess I distinguish between the peninsula and south bay (from an east bay schmo I suppose).
Cordevalle has a few things going for it that will always shadow Boulder Ridge. Most obvious is the land. Cordevalle is built on a property very much suited for golf, and I don't think Boulder Ridge is at all. Further, I happen to be a big RTJ Jr. fan, and think his recent work at Eagle Point, The Ridge and Cordevalle is fantastic. Brad Benz, the man responsible for Boulder Ridge, has yet to show me an understanding of the subtleties that RTJ does. Of course, Boulder Ridge and Castle Oaks are the only two Benz courses I've played, as opposed to the 20+ RTJ courses I've seen. I think you'll enjoy Boulder Ridge, there is certainly a lot going for it. Would it be worth $187,500 in any climate other than sillycone valley? I highly doubt it. To answer your question, I like Cordevalle a whole lot more.

[MTWilkinson]

Gib is right on.

The Preserve may work financially if the course is magic ("Maidstone without the beach club" is a great description) and that means the developers are going to have to come in with someone (even Fazio himself) and have them put some strategy and interest into the golf course.  

The fairway bunker placement and shaping, and most of the green complexes are very average at The Preserve.

That leads to the next question, the time line: What's the soonest redesign after the opening of a new high-end course?

PGA National Champions, 1980 Tom Fazio, redesign 1990 by Nicklaus, or ten years, is the quickest turnaround I can think of.  

Many of the "Golden Age" courses were modified a lot quicker (sometimes by successions of architects), but today's developers would swallow hard to admit a mistake after spending the enormous amounts of money they do only to have to spend more to fix it.  Their egos won't let this happen.

On the other hand, can The Preserve developers wait that long to change things.

[ed_getka]

#6 a reverse redan? My memory must be failing because I don't remember anything about the 2 front 9 par-3's except that they were straightaway par 3's without any strategic interest. Anybody remember seeing a redan at the Preserve?
#14 was my favorite par 3 there.

[A_Clay_Man]

My brain still hurts! Am I correct that both par 3's on the back are of similar look and direction and the yardage is all that is different? I do remember the use of a natural feature on one. Some tall weeds with all poison oak guarded the right side and even served to block, visually, the rightside of the green?

[George Pazin]

MTWilkinson -

I think the fastest redesign was when Fazio was brought in to redo a Greg Norman design (in Arizona?) before it even opened. I guess redesign is the key word - I think in this course, they just plowed over the Norman course & put in a new one.

[ed getka]

Adam,
I know its hard to remember, but the front 9 has the indistinguishable par 3's. They couldn't have reversed the nines since 9&10 are nowhere near the clubhouse. Do you remember seeing a redan hole there by the way?

[MTWilkinson]

Gentlemen:

There is no redan, ree-dan, Red Man, readin', redden, Reef Dan, or anything close at The Preserve.

Reading the last few posts, it reminds me of how plain all of the par-three holes are.  I remember 16 being the shortest (7 iron?), 2's maybe the longest (4 iron?) and the two in between (6, I think, and 14) are just that, somewhere in between.  I wasn't excited about any of them.

I've always thought that getting a couple of good, memorable par-threes out of a course was probably the easiest part of the golf design process, especially on a good tract of land...

Am I missing something?

[Gib Papazian]

You are not missing anything. The Preserve is what is missing something - memorable par 3's . . . .  or memorable par 4's and 5's.

[MTWilkinson]

One more interesting Preserve anecdote:

Two members of The Preserve, individually and on separate occasions, quietly (and properly) confided in me that The Preserve was the best course built in America since...Pine Valley :-/

And I am quoting them!

[MTWilkinson]

One more interesting Preserve anecdote:

Two members of The Preserve, individually and on separate occasions, quietly (and properly) confided in me that The Preserve was the best course built in America since...Pine Valley :-/

And I am quoting them!

[A_Clay_Man]

Ed- There was nothing close to a redan as a matter of fact I remember my first impression was that the majority of the greens were punchbowl shaped for playability. There are a couple of exceptions. The second hole par3 is perhaps the closest with the drop-off to the right but no redan or reverse. The exceptions mentioned above were the par 5 3rd with the biggest swale I have personally ever seen. The 9th has these two bumps which can only be compared to something bactrian. The other was the 11th which also could be confused for a redan but is really just built into the hillside with a single hump. (Dramadary?)
MTW- I can totally see where these guys have a vested interest in perpetuating the marketing myth and are caught up in all the hyperbole. Besides it's an opinion right? Who can ever be wrong about thier op? Just tremendously mis-informed, perhaps?

[Bob Huntley]

My property is separated from The Preserve by a 400 hundred acre parcel, as I am just above the Carmel River. From my house to the Golf Shop is nine miles of an uphill tortuous narrow road. This is the road used by the Preserve staff. I do believe I was one of the first non partners of the project to see the initial routing of the course.  To say that the course is a disappointment would be an understatement. The setting is gorgeous. The wild life is abundant and the isolation is serenity itself. However the course does not stir the soul and as everyone has pointed out the par threes are dull. The best hole on the course is number nine, a sweeping right to left par four.

What is interesting, is that Tehama, with a much inferior course, has a decidedly more active membership   who seem to have a great deal of fun, which seems lacking at The Preserve.

By the way, the prices of the twenty to forty acre parcels that have asking prices in the several millions, seem to have a novel tax dodge. I am not sure of the facts, but if one pays say, five million for a forty acre parcel, but only retain some ten acres for your own use, the remaining land can be donated to the San Carlos Preserve for a substantail charitable tax deduction.  

[Jim Dirksma]

Bob Huntley:

It sounds like you've got a good feel as to how it's going out at The Preserve.

How many lots/memberships have they sold, and how is the overall financial health of the project?  Is anybody playing the course (it was dullsville the 2 times I've been there)?  Do you hear anything from the investors that they are worried the golf portion of the project isn't getting a ringing endorsement (e.g., it didn't win Golf Digest's Best New Private course last year - in fact it came in 8th behind 3 other Fazio courses)?

What's the overall sense of things?

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