[Ran Morrissett]

I was fortunate to have a quick look around there about  1 1/2 years ago with Gib and my little brother.

On the one hand, it was awesome relative to the horrifically disappointing Clint Eastwood course, which is nearby. On the other, the opportunity was so great too with a massive amount of acreage available on stunning land that I left thinking that an opportunity was lost for building a truly unique and memorable course.

Gib, with the passing of time, have you changed how you initially viewed the course? Has it gone up or down in your mind? I see it made it into GolfWeek's Modern list at #68.

Has any architectural work or fine-tuning been done to any of the holes in the past 12 months or so?

[Gib_Papazian]

Ran,
I did not venture there in the past 12 months, although we can play it again when you come out here. My contact tells me they are a bit short on cash out there as sales have not been as brisk as anticipated.

To my knowledge, there have been no modifications, but I can call and find out. Perhaps Bob Huntley knows something I do not.

In the time since our visit, I have not changed my evaluation one iota. If they had built something as truly special as that wonderful piece of land, IMHO people would be knocking down the doors to get in . . . . regardless of the economy.

If you build it, they will come. See Sand Hills.

The Preserve does not hold up well when compared to Cordevalle, which was positioned for much the same market.

Oooops, I feel my blood pressure rising like it always does when Neal and I discuss things like this.

Pure and simple, I do not think it belongs on our Modern List. It is a mediocre design (4 fine holes, 1 excellent one #9) that ought to make everyone associated with the project nauseated with guilt on what it could have become.

I cannot believe I am saying this, but Mayacama is WAAAAAY more interesting and compelling a creation than The Preserve.

Now, can you imagine what would have been created if Doak, Harbottle, DeVries, C&C . . . . heck, I'd run out of names. R.T. Jones, JR would have created a superb golf course there. Gary Linn . . . . . the list goes on. If Neal and I had gotten our mitts on that thing we would have agonized over every blade of grass until it was perfect.

But Fazio mailed it in.

You know it, I know it, and I bet Fazio knows it too.

There will never be another course allowed back in that canyon, so what could have been Pine Valley will just be another generic design gouged into shangri-la. And you and i both know that is one of the most outstanding inland environments either one of us have ever seen.

What a waste. Look at the 10th hole Ran. . . . Blah, uphill par four with an uninteresting green. What possible excuse?

Again, it doesn't stink. It is a good golf course. Emphasis on "good."          

[Ran Morrissett]

Gib, If it's struggling financially, the owners must really wonder what happened. Awesome land, they gave THE name architect carte blanche and now....

They can always point to the recession, I suppose.

[ed getka]

Gib,
I don't know if they've done any work there either, but have played the course twice. The hole I remember most vividly is #15, the uphill par 4 if I remember the routing correctly.

Can you refresh my memory on #9 as I can't keep the holes straight due to the nondescript design of many of them. Is #9 the par 4 that follows the downhill par 5?

It is truly stunning land that the course is laid out on. It is one course I could walk without playing golf and have a great day. It is as spectacular as many of our regional parks in the Bay area. Unfortunately the course only has a few memorable holes which is remarkable considering the potential of the site.

[Thomas_Armstrong]

 Mr. Fazio I hope you read this. The site described sounds spectacular, you had a chance to create something for the ages. You didn't. Shame on you.

[Mark_Huxford]

Gib did you ever take any photographs out there? Ran?
I'm curious to see the course you are describing here.

[cbradmiller]

Wasn't it  Fazio that was hired in build over a nearly completed Norman course in AZ??? Might this project get sidways enough for this to be considered, sure would make so waves.

[A_Clay_Man]

Gib- I wonder if Sandy feels the same way?
 Ed-I caddied there for four rounds and I can't tell you which hole is no. nine either. The one after the par five with hazards on both sides and a narrowing towards the green might be # 8 which would make # 9 the long carry off the tee and the green with those two wacky humps in the middle of the green. Then the next, which Gib mentions, is the yawner up the hill. The 11th had another unusual green ... I am having so much trouble remembering I have to stop my brain hurts.  Ask me which way the waves were breaking the one day I saw CPC and I'll remember every cypress acorn.

The strategy at the Preserve was doomed from the git go. (Opening on or near the top of the stock market in 2000). Not the design of the course but the marketing. Going after the ultra-exclusive high-end money is a very risky proposition. First off, While I have met one or two, there just aren't that many idiots in that market. A fool and his money are lucky to be put together in the first place. So, who would plunk down 800k for land where your told where to build on and that don't include the golf.  

[Chris Hervochon]

Fazio had a great piece of property and produced nothing? *scratches head* HUH! That’s odd.  Sounds like Pine Hill.

[MTWilkinson]

Chris Hervochon:

Pine Hill might be a great piece of property, but let me assure you, The Preserve may be the most beautiful inland property anywhere.  

Mike Poellot did the routing with input from Sandy Tatum and I actually think it takes you through the property fairly well.  Fazio was brought in by the developers for everything after that (most significantly marketing pull for the BIG price tag they are charging for property - cheapest lot is $1.2 Million, some up to $8 million, plus another $150,000K on top of that for the membership/most members will never build a house on that property, the member I played with was from Greenwich, CT, belonged to 6 clubs, and expected to play 6-8 rounds a year at The Preserve while he stayed at a hotel in the Carmel Valley - calculate the cost per round after you factor in those numbers as well as sky-high California property taxes).

Fazio did a nice job, but nothing special (I was told he made 5 site visits, though his son   was the on-site project supervisor) given the awesome opportunity.  

It really could have been the "inland Cypress Point" (which several people have told me was the developer's verbatim stated goal given its proximity to the Monterey Peninsula), instead it's #68 on GolfWeek's Modern List and was #8 on GD's 200 Best New Private.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

There seems to be general agreement that the site presented an extraordinary opportunity. What is/was the nature of the site?

[MTWilkinson]

Tom:

22,000 acres (bigger than Manhattan) of gently rolling meadows with native grasses and wildflowers of every imaginable color, quiet ponds, California live oak everywhere, some forested areas, granite rock outcroppings, and the imposing back side (the other side is the Big Sur coastline) of the Santa Lucia Mountains as a backdrop, 1000 feet above the Carmel Valley floor (above the fog) in the golden California sun, but with the ocean breeze still in the air.  Forget the coast, this is the real California in all its glory.

It's the prettiest site I've ever seen, and conducive to natural golf holes where you wouldn't have to move much dirt at all.  There must be 500 natural greensites and as many holes.  Many of the holes were already there!  

This was as good an opportunity for Fazio as Doak had at Pacific Dunes, C&C at Sand Hills, and Mackenzie at Cypress.  A "10" site on the Doak Scale if there ever was one.

[MTWilkinson]

Tom and other posters:

As I was trying to describe The Preserve property, a new topic dawned on me and maybe we can continue it on this thread.

With the preface that I think The Preserve is a very good golf course notwithstanding, definitely one of Fazio's handful of best courses (with Shadow Creek, World Woods Pine Barrens, Wade Hampton, and Victoria National) and a perennial Top 100 candidate - and I realize that many on this site may not think of it as highly as I still do - I came to reflect that this may be the biggest wasted opportunity presented to a golf architect in the history of golf architecture (from the evolution of The Old Course to the present day).  Ever.

That's my question then:  What is the biggest lost opportunity in the history of golf architecture?

Regrettably, it may be The Preserve.

[Matt_Ward]

MTWilkinson & Gib:

Both of you are right on target with you're analysis.

I played the course last year in rating for GD and was sadly disappointed given the ultra isolation that comes from the property (I believe it's a 6-7 mile drive from the security gate to the clubhouse). Gib -- it is true what a waste of such incredible land and the best they get is some pro forma Tom Fazio layout that fails to inspire. Anyone paying the full $$ is really getting less than what could have been.

The 1st hole is really a demanding tee shot that takes away the driver -- unless you absolutely pure one down the middle the width of a bowling alley where the trees push in.

The 9th is a long par-4 that turns slightly to the left in the driving zone -- but is really a flat hole.

The 10 clearly is a hole from nowhere and utterly BORING.

I liked the 15th and 18th holes. The 15th demands pure power and I liked the challenge -- I believe the tips is about 470 yards and you better have plenty of zip on the tee shot. The 18th is a good finishing hole but nothing beyond what one has seen from previous TF designs.

Gib -- you're right, a good course but could have been so much more.  

I'd give it no more than a 4 on the Doak scale and much of that comes from the innate beauty of the wonderful California terrain.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'd mention Nantucket but I fear the Hounds of NJ being let lose and turning this thread into a frenzy. I think the best sites involve sandy soil. I've only seen photos of it, but perhaps the course on Prince Edwards Island -- it doesn't recieve much support. Ballybunion New looked spectacular, but perhaps it was actually too spectacular and severe.

[ed getka]

MT is right on in his assessment of the wasted opportunity that the Preserve turned out to be. Tom Doak, Mike DeVries, C&C, etc. could have designed a course (or courses on all that land) that would easily compare with Pac Dunes or Sand Hills. As another post described the land, it is classic California rolling oak-studded hills and meadows, wetlands, all in a valley hemmed in by the coastal range.

[Gene Greco]

Based on what has been said so far, COULD THIS FINALLY BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE FAZIO PHENOMENON? Will the fact that the so- called "premier" golf architect of today be finally recognized for what he is - an imposter!!!!!
 

[A_Clay_Man]

Gene-No chance of that happening. His free work at Augusta pretty much gauranteed his Peter Keating status. Hopefully though, calling him on it and educating others is the best we can do and then maybe just maybe generations to follow will get to experience all we hope for.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,
The Preserve is not a lost opportunity until the fat lady sings. I firmly believe that with the right direction, the current routing would not require modification.

The Lake Course at Olympic was a mediocre course when it opened - some of our finest tracks are the product of brilliant men making thoughtful refinements over many years.

Too many cooks spoiling the soup is true . . . . except when it isn't.

Let a man (or Mrs Morrissett) who lives and breathes the art take a crack at it. Perhaps all The Preserve needs is a architectural mulligan.

If they want to sell houses, first they need to cough up a great golf course.

A close friend of mine who hit it HUGE on an IPO strongly considered buying there . . . . but the course failed to inspire.

He has pretty good taste, but it is on a more visceral level. Most people in his position can sense that The Preserve is a paper tiger with more flash that substance.

Fix the course and you fix the financial woes.  

[Ran Morrissett]

Gib, That's a very interesting point. I wonder if they do "fix" the design, if that would help settle their financial woes?

Is it inherent in that argument that loaded perspective members appreciate and crave great architecture? Or is it more that if the course was made great, then got tons of recognition and was ranked highly, that the vultures would then descend on it, snapping up memberships?

On a side note, I was recently told that Jack Nicklaus designs FAR AND AWAY dominate all other architects combined at the high end of real estate projects. Don't know if it is accurate or not but I was told that Nicklaus controls something like 75-80% of the high end real estate golf project market place, a staggering %.  

In short, financiers love him, in part I can only assume because his projects are deemed successful by the money people a very high percentage of the time.

Cheers,

[Chris Hervochon]

Granted I have seen most of the world’s great golf courses in some way, shape or form; including an up close and personal visit with the great lady, Pine Valley.  I have seen a lot of Pine Hill too, which I thought was an incredible site.  I have seen some great sites for golf in my short lifetime, some don’t even have a golf course on them.  However, when someone tells me that The Preserve’s property is the best site in America, and it consists of 22,000 acres, and to top it off the golf course is no good? Makes me think the architect sucks, number one.  Number two, it makes me wonder just HOW GOOD this place really is.  Somebody please put it into perspective for me!

[BarnyF]

It was stated that Fazio did not do the routing.  If he didn't do the routing how can he get the blame for the course not being great.  There is not a single great course in existence with a poor routing...the problem once again lies with the owners not the architect.  Any way who really cares if one more rich dink from California plays golf on a mediocre course....Gib excluded.

[MTWilkinson]

Chris:

You ask the question HOW GOOD?

Consider these quotations:

"My first impression was the 'wow' factor.  The property is almost mind boggling."

"It's nothing short of sensational.  I was going wild (on my first visit) because I never had anything even close to this to work with.  I was like a kid in the candy store."

"Without question, People will come here and say this golf course is as good as it gets."

The source: Tom Fazio, the golf course designer, Robb Report, 2000.

Now consider these quotations:

"The owners want as natural a golf course as can be brushed from the soil.  A walk of the proposed routing confirms (this).  Except for a brief hike up a hill to the second tee, the routing follows a sensible line of least resistance that you'd follow just strolling through the property.  It's one long, lazy loop from first tee to last green, a full five miles around the base of a large foothill."

"The first fairway is already perfect, framed by a hillside and a stream.  The third fairway, untouched by bulldozer, couldn't be improved.  A bluff of exposed white chalk dominates the par-5 eighth that will run along its base.  A fork formed by adjoining creeks provides an ideal spot for the ninth green.  The meadow that will cradle the 10th through 13th is so graceful in its rolls and contours that heavy equipment may never touch this end of the course.  The 18th, over a canyon off the tee, will finish in an existing hollow beneath the clubhouse.  Only the uphill par-3 16th will need a little tweaking."

The source: Ron Whitten, Golf World, October 25, 1995

It seems that the world's foremost golf architect and golf architecture critic are in agreement as to how special this property is.  Note that Whitten's comments pre-date the hiring of Fazio (the routing was done by Mike Poellot and Sandy Tatum).

I've played Pine Hill.  It's a nice piece of property, but in putting into perspective with The Preserve property, it's like comparing Cyndi Lauper to Rene Russo.  The Preserve property is in the league of Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, Augusta, and Ballybunion.

Switching gears to consider Gib's suggestion: Can The Preserve be "tweaked" or "redesigned" so that it can achieve all of its promise, thereby bringing value to the investors?

It's an intriguing question, because, in theory, it can be done.
Reality says it won't happen.

Damn.

[ed getka]

I agree with Gib that the routing is workable if someone was brought in to redo the course. Fazio spends too much time from the courses of his that I have seen doing landscaping and framing. The holes look beautiful but playing many of them is simply not inspiring. The holes at the Preserve have beautiful oak tree "frames", but only a few holes have much strategy or architectural interest. On about half of the holes from my recollection there is no view of the green surface with the approach shot (unless you are Tiger Woods), so playing those holes the first time is challenging, but hitting blind into 6 or 7 greens gets tedious.


Also I noted that in his book Fazio lists the Preserve as one of his projects, but there are no pictures or discussion of the course. If it was such a special course in his opinion I would think he would want to highlight it.

Overall it is not a bad course, but once you see the property you can't help but think how much more it could have been.

[Kevin_Reilly]

My guess is that there won't be financing to make changes in the course, because in all likelihood the project's poor financial performance will be blamed on the local economy, which in fact is probably the primary reason.  Another way of saying it is that if the economy were good, they wouldn't have any trouble selling memberships or homesites no matter how mediocre or disappointing the course. Look at a course like LaRinconada for example...there's no way that there is any sort of correlation between course quality and membership price (at least the last half-dozen years).

The budget for "golf course design and construction" at this project has probably been spent, and unless new money comes into the project (unlikely) there won't be any improvements made.  Not in this market.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()