Framing - Blame it on Pine Valley!

[TEPaul]

It will be very interesting to get to the bottom of the evolution of the greens and green-ends of Seminole. Mark, this has nothing to do with you mentioning the issue, or you as the messenger, as you say. I'm glad you mentioned it whether you're right or wrong about it and personally it will be interesting to me since I had a connection to the place through my Dad.

Finding out the evolution of the greens shouldn't be all that hard with some calling and digging. I'm sure Pete Dye knows something about it either through analyzing or researching them with some kind of documentation or something like that.

If the greens were all changed in the late 1940s or early 1950s it shouldn't be hard to find someone who remembers. The President of the club knows a ton about the place and he's been a member for a long long time. My sense is that whatever was or wasn't done that it's likely it was done around the time #18 green was moved. There were some interesting developments through photo analysis too. It was assumed that some of the bunkering (like #6) was the work of Wilson. But as I understand it GeoffShac disproved that by verifying the date of the photo which clearly predated Wilson. That was interesting because the bunkering was unusual for Ross, although it clearly appears it was Ross.

This is the kind of thing I like about Golfclubatlas--this is interesting stuff, maybe not to everyone but certainly to some.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
Who is Famous Amos Jones?  Is that Trent?  

Tom P,
Be curious what you find out.
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul and Tom MacWood,

If Seminole let a "novice" architect like Dick Wilson, totally redesign and rebuild their 18th hole, why is it such a quantum leap that the club let him redo their green/greensites ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Mark
That is who I thought you were referring to. Is there a person known as Famous Amos Jones?

Pat
Don't you think the time frame would determine when someone was experienced or inexperienced? What year was the 18th redesigned and do you know what Wilson's exact roll might have been? Was Watson involved? Dunphy?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You're missing a whole bunch of points simultaneously! Noone that I'm aware of said or even remotely implied that Dick Wilson was any "novice" architect! Far from it! Although I didn't have the slightest interest in architecture back in Dick Wilson's days I distinctly remember that he definitely was the architect of choice in South Florida back in the 1950s and 1960s. They loved the guy down there then! My Dad talked about him all the time as did a bunch of others who were in control of a lot of those old South Florida courses and later his partner Joe Lee when Wilson was gone.

He did do redesign work at Seminole and Gulfstream, two clubs I'm familiar with way back when and particularly their architecture now I've gotten so much into that subject. The Wilson redesign of the 15th green at Gulfstream is just fascinating to me, particularly since this hole was one of Ross's known all time favorites. I was stunned to find in the last year that Wilson turned the entire green around and made it much better strategically than what it appeared to be on Ross's original sketch.

Wilson was so popular in fact that the same group of people I'm talking about (including my old man) got him to do Pine Tree for them and clearly brought him to New York to do Meadowbrook too, and probably the same basic group who got him to do some Jersey courses.

As for why Seminole may have gotten him to redesign every green on the course or NOT, you have to go back and look at the facts of that time. I know you're high on facts, Pat! Maybe there was no reason at all to have all the greens redesigned!! #18 Seminole was likely moved and redesigned to make room for a new and improved practice range since the old green was right where the practice chipping and bunker practice green (on that side) is right now. And the other green that may have been moved was #3 to make the hole a longer par 5! There is really no room to back the tee up on that hole so if they decided to lengthen the hole the green-end is the only real choice.

As for the other greens and their apparent redesign, it sounds to me at the moment like people are confusing redesign with a process of gasings, regrassings and topdressing which was explained to me is not uncommon for some South Florida courses particularly those that close down in the summers.

Gasing and regrassing greens is not synonymous with redesign, at least not necessarily so! Dan Wexler gave me the original Seminole Ross hole and green design drawings and from what I can see (I can't find them at this moment but they're in here someplace and I will look at them again) some of the green-end bunker schemes look different to me than what I know about Seminole all these years. A few of those bunker schemes on Ross's drawings, like #1 and #2 look just awesome to me and appear more interesting and probably more intense to play than what's there now. But the greens look the same to me with some notable exceptions.

I don't know what the real story is and I'm not claiming to either, but I bet it won't be that long before we find out. I couldn't care less either if my supposition or Mark Fine's supposition turns out to be the right one--I just want to know--I think it's a very interesting subject and issue in the evolution of a great old classic American golf course.

[Mark_Fine]

I have no idea who "Famous Amos" Jones is?  Does anyone?  Ron said that Pete told him that this guy is the one responsible for today's greens at Seminole.  He was evidently a tractor operator.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

What do you know of Watson or Dunphy's involvement ?

How qualified was Dunphy as an architect ?
Nothing I have ever heard or read suggested that it was an area of expertise or interest on his part.  Having met and talked to him on several occassions, I never heard him discuss architecture, though that wouldn't exclude his involvement.

As for Watson, while he had a personal connection to Ross, it doesn't always translate to the intellectual capacity to understand the architecture.  What do we know of his interest and abilities in that theatre ?

Perhaps raw, creative talent transcends apprenticeship, or a time table.  

Didn't Wilson study and apprentice under Toomey and Flynn ?
Didn't he work on Merion, Shinnecock and Indian Creek in Florida with/under Flynn.  Wasn't he credited for doing much of the work at Shinnecock ?  All before WW II.

That doesn't sound like a novice to me.  And evidently Seminole, thought the same in giving him the work sometime before 1948.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I know Jerry Pittman credited Dunphy with the design of the 18th. I have no idea how qualified he was an architect, perhaps as qualified as you or me or Clifford Roberts. What year did you meet Dunphy?

Watson built Seminole with Ross and then served as the courses long time superitendent. Wilson, like Watson, built Indian Creek for Toomey & Flynn. If I were hiring someone to oversee the restoration of Seminole I'd probably lean to the person with first hand experience/knowledge both from a contruction and on going maintenance perspective. Of course in 1947 Ross was still living and was involved in Daytona Beach in 1946 and Jacksonville Memorial and New Smyrna in 1947.

It seems to me we are talking about three different things, the supposed rebuilding/remodeling of all of Ross's greens, the restoration of the course following WWII and the redesign of the 18th. The first two would require someone with an 'intellectual capacity' but not necessarily an architect. What would make you question Watson's intellectual capacity? I have not seen or read anything that would lead me to conclude that Dunphy could not have designed the 18th.

In regards to Wilson it appears you are quoting from C&W 'Architects of Golf', you will be interested to know that Whitten subsequently wrote an excellent article on Shinnecock in which he discovered Wilson's involvement had been over stated.

It seems clear no one knows exactly what happened at Seminole or at least know one on this site, which is the point which I believe Tom Paul is trying to make.

What year was Wilson first engaged by Seminole (and do you know in what capacity) and what year was the 18th redesigned?

[BillV]

Will you guys stop dissin' Dick Wilson?

[TEPaul]

This is dissin' Dick Wilson? What would be praising him in your opinion? Proclaiming him the best architect in the history of the business?

[BillV]

Tom

I'm trying to get my posts up!

It is nice to see some defence of him.

[TEPaul]

BillV:

You know I've never really thought about Dick Wilson all that much but I just looked through his inventory in C&W. I've played a lot more of his courses than I realized and I always thought all of them were damn good. There's always a lot to think about on the courses of his I've played.

I had a feeling that some of his courses sort of had a bit of a dated "new" feeling, if you know what I mean, but thinking about courses like Meadowbrook, Biderman, Bedens Brook I sure wouldn't say that now. I didn't realize that Wilson was a Philadelphian either but it makes sense since he started as a water boy for Wilson (Hugh) and Flynn at Merion in 1925.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

After seeing the 1929 aerial of Seminole in Klein's Ross biography, I'm starting to wonder what exactly was done to the course. It clearly shows the dramatic number and nature of the original Ross bunkering.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I met Dunphy in the late 50's and I think into the very early 60's.

What have you read about Dunphy ?  where can I read more about him ?

With respect to Watson, just because he was involved as the superintendent and in construction, doesn't automatically mean that he understood Ross architectual intent or theory.

I would agree that it seems mysterious that a club about to make changes, wouldn't consult with the original architect unless he was in ill health or on poor terms with those in power at the club.

I don't believe I overstated Wilson's role at Shinnecock.

TEPaul,

I'm not missing anything, I think you are  

First you miss the word TEMPORARY, and now you miss the word NOVICE, as in NOVICE architect, which is exactly what Tom MacWood posted above.  Just scroll up and see for yourself, and then you can appologize for being testy.
My reading comprehension remains sharp, despite this being 50th anniversary of the demise of the STYMIE.

I believe there is a picture in the locker room from around 1946 that shows the old 18th hole, a straight par 4 with the tee to the west of the 17th green, with the green near the center of the current practice tee.  When I visit this winter I will confirm the date of the photo, and seek some additional info on Wilson's involvelment.

What is interesting, is what Tom MacWood mentioned about Ross being alive, and nearby, yet the 18th was redesigned by Wilson.

Dunphy could be difficult, could it be that a conflict arose between he or possibly others at Seminole and Ross, resulting in the introduction of another architect.  Did Club Politics and not architecture in the absolute play a role in some work at Seminole ?

This could be a fascinating research project.

Tom MacWood,

What do we know of Ross's health in this period ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm not sure about Ross's health, I'll check with his doctors. There was major article in Golf Journal 1975 for infromation on Dunphy and Seminole. And number of other bits and pieces here and there from many popular books/magazines on golf and golf architecture. How old were you in the late 50's/early 60's when you engaged Dunphy? I've always got the impression he was less tyranical than the other famous despots of golf.

The World Atlas of Golf claims Ross and Watson collaborated on the design - so based on that you might conclude he understood something of Ross's architectural intent.

Didn't you say Wilson was credited with much of the work at Shinnecock? It would have been more acurate to say Wilson was mistakenly credited with much of the work at Shinnecock. No disrespect to Wilson, but lets give credit where credit is due.

Are you sure the 18th was redesigned in 1947, where did you get your information? I agree it would make a fascinating subject for research, especially after seeing the aerial from 1929. I don't doubt club politics may have played a part, but its difficult to jump to that conclusion based on the information (or lack of info) at hand.

[Chris Hervochon]

Talked to my friend who is on ground maintenance at Pine Valley today about the tree issue.  He had some interesting things to say.  First off, he does know quite a bit about the place and it’s history because he read the history book and is the type to ask a lot of questions and do a lot of talking.  From his findings he says it was a superintendent in the 40's that planted all those trees that are now encroaching on the fairways and greens.  He says they refuse to remove most of them because “they loved the guy”.  Isn’t that interesting?

[redanman aka BillV]

Here I am with my limited acces geting back to this late.......

As far as Di*k Wilson is concerned, he has quite a bit of credit for Shinnec*ck given to him by George Peper in 1891-1991, Shinnec*ck Hills Golf Club, (Based on an original text by Ross Goodner) which I have and have read at least thrice. There is dispute to this especially by Geoff Shackleford, but he had to do something more than carry water buckets to receive this kind of comment in print by the club!!!

  I have been fascinated by the association of Toomy, Flynn and DWilson and the collaboration of them on some pretty darned good golf courses from Merion as a kid for D Wilson, later the disputed input at Shinnecock, Indian Creek and the like.  I have never been able to do any original research, but D Wilson sure was in the picture along the way, got work at Seminole and on through the Florida days including originals Lost Tree, Pine Tree and the original PGA National (later JDM and now Ballen Isles).  Bay Hill, NCR in OH, IL's Cog Hill, DE's Biderman and you have a solid list or real golf courses which might be criticized for a style having fallen out of favor as a crime.  

Originality in "the all important GCA.com look" may not have been DWilson's strong point, but solid solid courses make up his portfolio.

(Tom-we have to do Biderman next year, please?  I know you aren't much of a "mudder" like Cirba and me for these next few months.  I have to do further "field study" on Wilson.)

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bill
What do Goodner and Peper say was Wilson's contribution at Shinnecock?

You don't think Wilson's designs were original or reflect a distinctive style?

[TEPaul]

Chris:

We should all understand how PVGC was and is run. The Club to date has only had five Presidents. From the 1920s until the 1970s the club was run by by one John Arthur Brown who without doubt ran all of Pine Valley his way. During most of that time (about fifty years) the course was maintained by Eb (Eberhard) Steiniger who was the superintendent. Brown was also the Green Chairman and it's likely not a blade of grass or a tree went unnoticed by him. For about the last third of his reign there he lived behind #7 tee. What Eb did at PVGC was overseen by Mr. Brown who ran the club this way until the day he died at 92 on 2/6/77.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I was in my late teens, early twenties.  Chris Dunphy was a friend of my dad, who was also very friendly with Claude Harmon, who served at Seminole for a while.

With respect to Watson's involvement at Seminole,
The World Atlas of Golf claims he "assisted", not "collaborated" as you had indicated, and there is a distinct difference in the two, especially in the intellectual sense of the words.

You cited The World Atlas of Golf as a credible source with respect to Watson's involvement at Seminole.  What did they have to say about Wilson's involvement at Shinnecock ?

" It was not until 1931 that the course finally emerged as it now exists.  LARGELY THE WORK OF THE LATE DICK WILSON"  The very source you referenced would seem to lend credibility to and confirm the extent of Wilson's involvement at Shinnecock.

You indicated that I stated that the 18th hole was done by Wilson in 1947.  I can't seem to find where I said that, could you cite the post for me.

I didn't jump to conclusions about Dunphy, Ross and Wilson, and Seminole's club politics, I said, "coiuld it be"  you jumped to the conclusion.

Perhaps you and Tom Paul should visit an optometrist together.  I understand there are some excellent ones in your area who also provide reading comprehension evaluations at no extra charge.    

But, you did raise a very interesting point, why didn't Seminole employ Ross to do the work.  Could, (notice I said, could) it be that he was opposed to alterations ?  
Could it have been his health, or could it have been club politics..?
Since this happened 60 plus years ago, it may be hard to find individuals familiar with the chain of events, and it's rare when club politics find their way into the history books.

Perhaps Tom Paul and others can unravel the mystery.

[TEPaul]

It's a little hard on this particular thread which concentates on two or three courses and questions together, but with respect to Seminole what exactly is the question here? Wilson, Watson, Ross, Dunphy, #18, all the greens redesigned??

I think most know that #18 was moved and redesigned. Most know where it once was and where it is now and that Dick Wilson was part of the project. As for the remainder of the greens (excepting probably #3) there is no documentation I've seen that the greens themselves were redesigned. It certainly looks to me like some of the green-end bunkering was, however, unless of course the course was not built following Ross's original drawings! That could be possible for some reason none on here are aware of.

Were all the greens themselves redesigned after WW2? Maybe, maybe not, but the likely scenario, in my opinion, between what they looked like on Ross's drawings (assuming he built them specifically that way) and how they evolved was not redesign but a matter of constant gasings, regrassing and topdressing as well as the typical evolutionary shrinkage and possibly expansion, certainly recently. This is common evolution, particularly in South Florida on courses like Seminole (closed in summer).

I'm sorry to tell you that there is information here that you should just read between the lines on because when it comes to the Internet there just happens to be some people who don't feel like going public on here and answering some of the questions posed here and for very valid reasons. If they ask not to be quoted or even that the information not be specifically cited in detail then I for one am going to honor that! I'm sorry but these are private clubs that own these places and it's their own business and their perfect right to refuse to go public about anything that transpires within or on their golf course.

I don't have all the answers to some of these specific questions and although I would like to get them if those who I get them from ask me not to publish them in detail on Golfclubatlas, I'm sorry fellows, but I'm going to honor that--I have to do that.

I'll continue to look into it though and if I find something interesting on this subject and maybe even answers to some of these specific questions and am given permission to make them known then obviously I'd be happy too.

In the meantime, we should try to look back at that post-war era through the eyes of that time, not our own. Why wasn't Ross hired to do any redesign on Seminole? There could be a million reasons and it's best to look at the people at Seminole at the time and try to imagine and maybe even reconstruct how and what they were doing and thinking!

Did they venerate Ross the way we do now? Most likely not! Did they think about the purity of a so-called classic course the way we do now? I can tell you from personal family experience, most assuredly not! Did this mean they didn't respect Ross or Seminole? No! But they had a much different attitude and outlook about those courses then we do now.

Dick Wilson? He became a favorite of many of that South Florida set of Seminole, Gulfstream, Indian Creek and some other similar clubs down there but quite a bit later, certainly not much earlier than the mid 1950s and after his successes  at W. Palm Beach C.C. and NCR. It's clear to me that these same people hired him to do other courses in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast in the 1950s and 1960s.

As Tom MacWood and I were disussing the other day on the phone it's as much a key when looking at the evolution of these golf courses to look at them from the perspective of the people who ran them as from the perspective of the architects who worked for those people and on their courses. When you do that it becomes almost uncanny how interconnected things were--how well these same people all knew each other and consequently took these architects with them to do other projects and courses elsewhere.

In 1947, for whatever reason, Wilson was hired by Seminole. It may have been more the result of his recent business formation with the Troup Bros. of Miami. In other words if Seminole was going to move and redesign #18 they sure weren't going to do it in-house. Maybe Wilson was cheaper and bid far lower than anyone else (if anyone else was asked to bid) since he just started his business. He was local and was likely known by many of the people who knew each other in that area and belonged to the same clubs (who mostly knew each other). Wilson had been the pro and greenskeeper at the Delray Beach C.C. from about 1933 until the war when he constructed landing fields. Toomey and Flynn's business, like almost everyone else completely dried up in the depression from the early 1930s until after the war.

Chris Dunphy? I remember him well, but I certainly never talked to him about architecture--I can't remember what I ever talked to him about except maybe to politely say hello a whole bunch of times. I remember him as a dapper little man with quite a memorable aura about him--a little Damon Runyonesque with his hat! He definitely was a man who was held with respect by others. My understanding was that he took Seminole through some very hard and difficult times before and during the war, maybe almost on his own.

We should also not necessarily be thinking of some of the apparent changes we're speaking about as dedicated redesign (or restoration) by these clubs. Many of these things we think of now that way were and are sometimes nothing more than maintenance, particularly coming out of the war if the course was mothballed as it likely was, as was almost every other course in America. It was actually considered unpatriotic to play a lot of golf back in those War days. More recently, what we think of as redesign (or restoration) could be nothing more than the club (and an architect) taking care of a particular problem of any kind that the club feels the need to take care of.

I'm going to try to look into these things because I'm very interested in them for the research and from an historical perspective, but if any of us find out things and are asked not to make them public then don't!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Gasing and regrassing of greens appears to be done far more
frequently today than back in the 60's, 50's and 40's, so I'm not so sure that Seminole went through so many of these procedures that it led to structural alterations to their greensites.

Information can rest within a club's confines or it may be public knowledge.  Certainly, you shouldn't betray a confidence, but neither should you confine information based on the indirect whims of  members who don't speak, officially, for the club.  In the end, you, and you alone, have to make that decision, and you needn't explain your decision to anyone, including GCA.

Now, Wilson was INVOLVED with the project on # 18.
Next, he will be relegated to parking cars and maybe buying some seed for # 18 fairway.

Is revisionist history at work on GCA.  Architectual cleansing ?
Is he not a part of the elitist order ?
If they're not classic or C & C, remove them from praise ?

I don't understand the attempts to diminish Wilson, his work at Seminole, and his work at large.  I have enjoyed playing Deepdale, Meadow Brook, Doral, Pine Tree, Bay Hill, JDM, Bedens Brook, Paradise Island, and Westmoreland.  Do these and other courses he's designed merit recognition ?  Does his work merit recognition, or did he just carry water and gain social popularity as he matured ?

I don't think he has been given the recognition he deserves.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Thanks for the medical advice - not only are you an expert on golf architectural history, you are also a medical expert. Perhaps as a teenager you were engaged in conversation with Dunphy on the subject of myopia.

It has been a while since you engaged anyone in a good old fashioned pissing contest and clearly you are itching to get into one now, with apologies to the group (because these marathon sessions rarely reveal anything other than your awesome endurance) I'll jump right in. I'm sure you will pick and poke my every word, and I'll be looking closely to see if you are able to add any substantive facts to this subject - with of course my new eye glasses.

The quote in the 'Atlas': "With assistance from a former Tennessee mountaineer, T.Claiborn Watson, Ross designed a true linksland course over the Florida sand ridges adjacent to the Atlantic Ocean....Ross and Watson's course was the first truely fine test of golf in that southernmost part of America." My apologies for using the term 'collaborated', I was clearly out of line.

In regards to 'Atlas' being a credible source, yes I would say that Donald Steel, Pat Ward-Thomas, Herbert Warren Wind, Charles Price and Peter Thomson - the authors - are extremely credible sources. Do you hold a contrary opinion of these men - are you familar with their work? Are they infallible or never mistaken, no and in the case of Shinnecock, Price was repeating the commonly held belief at the time that Wilson was largely responsible for Shinnecock -- Whitten, Shackelford and others have now discovered that Flynn in fact deserves the credit.(I suspect this story may have been similar to Jack Fleming's belief that he was responsible for Cypress Point).

One of the reasons I dig as much into the subject is because I do not take everything I read for gospel - perhaps you can share what your research has uncovered and we can lay this Shinnecock mystery to rest. What was Wilson's role at SH?

I'll add a little known fact to the Shinnecock tale, did you know that the club called in CH Alison to review Flynn's plan, which he approved of completely, "We are extremely satisfied that Mr.Flynn's plans are as good as can be made on this site and that the proposed course will prove to be of the first order." Pretty extraordinary coming from a potential rival - especially when you consider the high profile of the Shinnecock project - wouldn't you agree?

Where did I get the impression that you claimed Wilson redesigned the 18th in 1947? Very simple, in the post in which I pointed out Ross was in Florida in 1946 and 1947, I asked you very clearly (for the second time) when did Wilson redesign the 18th, and in your follow up thread you stated "What is interesting, is what Tom MacWood mentioned about Ross being alive, and nearby, yet the 18th was redesigned by Wilson.' You had stated earlier that it was your belief that the 18th had not be altered in 1946 and we all know Ross died in 1948, so I assumed you were claiming that Wilson redsigned the 18th in 1947, my logic is obviously faulty. I'll ask you a third time when was the 18th redesigned and who exactly who was responsible for it - Wilson, Dunphy, Watson or someone else? And it is OK to say you don't know, because I sure as hell don't know.

If the course had been neglected during WWII what would in take to restore it? Re-edge and re-establish bunkers--perhaps even rebuild a few, possibly resurface the greens and fairways, and clear away all the undergrowth, did the course have an irrigation system?   I have no idea, but would that type of major resoration project require - a contruction crew? Would you need the original architect, or any architect, if you were simply re-establishing the design? Is it possible that the 18th was redesigned in the 50's?

I think we go on discussing this very interesting subject, but until we have a few more facts won't it be mostly conjecture?

By the way when I think of framing, trees do not come to mind - I think of gratuitous bunkering and mounding. And PV is not a guilty of either.

[TEPaul]

I would love to pin down the evolution of Seminole, but where is this thread going on the subject and what is the subject exactly?

Pat:

WHAT ARE you talking about? Wilson relegated to the parking lot, GCA as revisionist on architecture and you're back to this 'if it isn't Coore and Crenshaw it doesn't get any respect'. Why do you keep saying things like that? Who isn't giving Dick Wilson respect? Why don't you read some of my posts on this very thread about how they felt in South Florida about him back in those days?

Do you say these things in defense of Wilson because of Pine Tree or because you belong there or something like that? I told you my father was one of the founding members of Pine Tree and they loved the guy!

Obviously the same guys from South Florida got him to do courses like Meadowbrook, Bedens Brook and Bidermann, all these people knew each other and were very high on Wilson! All these people who spent the winters down there and played at places like Seminole and Gulfstream and even Indian Creek were from all over the northeast and Wilson was one of the top architects of that time, maybe even second in the business to RTJ! So what's the problem?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I never discussed the Myopia Hunt Club with Chris Dunphy.
We did discuss the 6th hole, wind and twisting.

When you make a snide remark to a genuine question, you can't expect it to stand without a reply.

As Matt Ward said, you have a tendency to twist thing to suit your position, and in doing so, you ASSUMED that I drew conclusions when I never did.  You attributed statements to me, that I never made.  I'm simply obligated to set the record straight.

A perfect example of your twisting for your convenience is the quoting, as a credible, if not irrefutable source,
"The World Atlas of Golf" to prove your point.  Yet, when that same source is used to prove a point that you take issue with, suddenly, the source becomes fallible, questionable, and not to be relied on.  My, how convenient.

Members have told me that Dick Wilson redid # 18, and there seems to be additional credible evidence confirming that, although some claim that some of the locker room attendants also assisted with the project.  Credible sources indicate the work was done in 1947, and I believe photographic evidence exists that confirms the work was done before 1950.

I believe the "universe" gives Flynn credit for the routing at Shinnecock.  Wilson seems to be given credit for much of the work, there is a distinction.

TEPaul,

Please, don't take every post as being directed toward you.  
Also, please try to see that some are tongue in cheek remarks, even though they may be absent smiley faces.
And some flollow the thinking of, what truth there be in jest.
But, I stand by my statement regarding elitist order.
While I love classic architecture, I feel there is a theme regarding style, woven through the fabric of this site, that if it's not classic, Doak or C &C, it gets relegated to second class citizenship or worse, and I feel differently.  
Now, that's just my opinion, but I don't think I'm alone on my views.

Didn't Bill V think some were "DISSIN" Dick Wilson.
Now, if he felt that way, and I feel that way, could there be something there or are we just imagining things ?

Dick Wilson Vs Robert Trent Jones

TEPaul, tell me you see it !