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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 08:01:22 AM »
  Actually I've played every course I've wanted to play.  I have a good friend who live in Kingsbarns and has family that used to work at the course so I have played it a few more times than you have. For me the atmosphere of the clubhouse has changed for the worse over the years.
What a shame.  This was actually quite a good thread.  Niall asked a sensible question, simply trying to get a feel for your breadth of experience in Scotland, and gets a reply like this.  Let's try again.  In order to better understand your perspective it would be great to know where in Scotland you have played.  For instance, a number of posters, including Tom D. have suggested that all three par 5s at Muirfield are better holes.  Have you played Muirfield?  Have you played NBWL and can you explain what, in your opinion, makes 12 at KB a better hole than 11 at NBWL?  I'd love to know why youi think it's better than 6 at Cruden Bay, which is another par 5 I like a lot.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 08:09:05 AM »
I passed on muirfield. Have played. Castle Stuart,Cruden Bay,Royal Dornach,TOC over twenty times,Kingsbarns,Crail,North Berwick,Turnberry,Prestwick,The Castle Course,StAndrews Bay,the New Course,Carnoustie,skipped Royal Aberdeen and snuck on and played the Postage stamp. Actually played the road hole and the postage stamp on the same day. Had a wonderful pizza at Peckers too.

  Anthony


Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 08:57:44 AM »
With my apologies to my favorite course, I think there are a few better par 5s in Scotland than KB #12, from my limited plays.  The drive is fun and I love the green but it’s the second shot on most par 5s that are the hardest to keep my attention; said differently, I think it’s easiest to make challenging drives and fun greens, but the hardest design feature to make interesting is the second shot. 

Are these better? 

Western Gailes #6
Prestwick #3
St Andrews New #8
TOC # 17 :) 

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 09:03:36 AM »


  12 at Kingsbarns......Elevated tee...generous landing area....angles play a big role on approach. ..lay-up is pinched with ob on the left and bunkers on the right...perfect green site...slope of green accepts the ball very well...very scenic hole....Alot to like about the design.

  Anthony

 

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 10:12:43 AM »
  Actually I've played every course I've wanted to play.  I have a good friend who live in Kingsbarns and has family that used to work at the course so I have played it a few more times than you have. For me the atmosphere of the clubhouse has changed for the worse over the years.
What a shame.  This was actually quite a good thread.  Niall asked a sensible question, simply trying to get a feel for your breadth of experience in Scotland, and gets a reply like this.  Let's try again.  In order to better understand your perspective it would be great to know where in Scotland you have played.  For instance, a number of posters, including Tom D. have suggested that all three par 5s at Muirfield are better holes.  Have you played Muirfield?  Have you played NBWL and can you explain what, in your opinion, makes 12 at KB a better hole than 11 at NBWL?  I'd love to know why youi think it's better than 6 at Cruden Bay, which is another par 5 I like a lot.


  Forgot...Mowed TOC as well.


 

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2012, 10:47:16 AM »
Niall and Mark P,

Perhaps if your tone wasn't so condescending the thread might have reached it's fullest potential. Unlike, in your humble opinions, number 12 at KB  :)

Mark- your reply in post 25 was a bit schoolmarmish..dontcha think?  Class...class...

Anthony certainly doesn't need any help (certainly not mine) in defending his viewpoint or his affinity for KB 12. I think he's done a better job arguing for than those arguing against. IMO the mower shot sealed the deal  ;D

I have far more limited experience with Scottish golf than many here (only about a dozen of the great ones), and I haven't played the concensus gold standard for Scotland long holes, but can some of the group list a few par 5s in the country that are more spectacular than KB 12? I've only played it once and I liked it a lot.


Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2012, 12:24:44 PM »
I have great memories of the 12th at Kingsbarns. It is a fine hole. A great setting.
That's my daughter teeing off.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2012, 05:35:10 PM »
Anyone have a set of pictures of the hole in question?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 01:47:42 PM »
Condescension - according to Wikipedia it means a show of disdain and superiority in which the condescending person patronizes, or considers him/herself superior and "descends" to the level of, the disdained person.

Yep, I'll go with that. Mind you I'm not quite sure I lowered myself to Anthony's level  ;) but I certainly think if you make the contention that Anthony did you should at least back it up or qualify it in some way.

Niall 

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2012, 02:08:35 PM »


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2012, 02:45:48 PM »
Yep, I'll go with that. Mind you I'm not quite sure I lowered myself to Anthony's level  ;) but I certainly think if you make the contention that Anthony did you should at least back it up or qualify it in some way.
Why bother when you can post a picture of you on a mower at St Andrews?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 03:35:15 PM »
Mark- If you can post a picture of you (or Niall) on a mower at St. Andrews I'll bow out gracefully. Until then we can only assume that you're jealous.  :)

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2012, 03:47:29 PM »


  Its fun studying the road hole bunker from every angle Chris.

 

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2012, 10:04:44 PM »
If you play Kingsbsrns and don't remember this hole you played with your eyes closed.

  Anthony


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2012, 03:08:37 AM »
If you play Kingsbsrns and don't remember this hole you played with your eyes closed.

  Anthony


Beautiful does not equal great, though.  Just ask Pat Mucci.  I think 12 at KB is one of the holes you can see from Balcomie whilst playing 4 and 5.  They are equally beautiful but whilst both are good holes I wouldn't call them great.  I'd still love to know what it is about 12 at KB that makes it, in your view, a better hole than 6 or 13 at Cruden Bay or 9 and 11 at NBWL. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 06:21:39 AM »
If you play Kingsbsrns and don't remember this hole you played with your eyes closed.

  Anthony


Beautiful does not equal great, though.  Just ask Pat Mucci.  I think 12 at KB is one of the holes you can see from Balcomie whilst playing 4 and 5.  They are equally beautiful but whilst both are good holes I wouldn't call them great.  I'd still love to know what it is about 12 at KB that makes it, in your view, a better hole than 6 or 13 at Cruden Bay or 9 and 11 at NBWL. 

I don't understand why Dr. Gray is getting such a hard time. He posed a question when he started the thread.


  THe best par 5 in Scotland? What"s better?

  Anthony

He then backed it up with his thoughts on the hole.

[/quote]



  12 at Kingsbarns......Elevated tee...generous landing area....angles play a big role on approach. ..lay-up is pinched with ob on the left and bunkers on the right...perfect green site...slope of green accepts the ball very well...very scenic hole....Alot to like about the design.

  Anthony


It was not Anthony that first mentioned, 6 or 13 at CB or 11 at NBWL, or all four at Muirfield, or the others at KB. If you believe they are better holes, then make your argument. If we get 5 or 10 people suggesting several better par 5s, is Anthony expected to address each hole, one-by-one?

If you think a certain hole is better, then back it up with a reason why you think so.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2012, 07:00:42 AM »
OK, Donal, let's start with 6 at Cruden Bay because it's one Anthony knows well, I think we can assume.

It has an intimidating drive, with real advantages to keeping it left, despite that being where the worst trouble is.  Then, having hit a good drive, there's the temptation to go for it.  Even if you aren't tempted to go for the green (and the way it's tucked away and angled makes it difficult to hit and hold and the penalty for falling short is severe), is it worth trying to carry the burn and have a relatively simple chip up the green?  If you lay up you really want to do so close to the water to give a better angle to that green, which itself isn't easy.

12 at KB may be more spectacular but doesn't strike me as having a particularly interesting tee shot or, for those who are going to lay up (and I think that's most of us) I don't think there's that much to the lay up.  It's a good hole but not, in my book, as interesting to play as 6 at CB.

9 at NBWL has a really, really interesting challenge off the tee.  Drive between the centre line bunker and the OOB and have the advantage of being closer to the green AND having a better line, or bail out right.  Then there's the second shot.  From the left (having taken on the dangerous drive, you can go for it, because anything short will be ok.  From the right, going for it becomes a really difficult shot.  Even the lay up isn't straightforward, as getting both line and length reasonably right is important.  The green has a steep slope asd is really easy to 3 putt, particularly if your approach was on the safe side and is past the flag.  Of course, if you're short of the flag there's the danger that you might have rolled back down the fairway.

I think Simon described what makes 11 at NBWL a great hole.  Can we ask Anthony why he prefers 12 at KB now?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Anthony Gray

Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2012, 07:56:45 AM »

  Nice post Mark. I do think the placement of the tee ball at KB is very important because the angle of the approach is very important. THe lay up area is pinched because of bunkers so the tee ball must be strategically placed. There is no OB at CB so that tee shot is fearless. At NB the tee shot seems much less intimidating. Does crossing the hazzard on the second at CB give the golfer that much of an advantage? Not that much I believe all though the angle is better. The 70 yard long green wins hands down at KB and accepts the ball much better than the other two holes. The other two are very nice holes but not near as memorable. Thanks for the post Mark.

  Anthony


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2012, 08:53:26 AM »
Now we're talking architecture!  Thanks, Anthony.

I'd agree that the tee shot at either CB or NB is less intimidating, if you're playing safe and going right.  Both are more intimidating (yet more rewarding) if you take the tougher left side option, I think.  It may be a cultural thing but I think that the green "accepting" the ball better is a minus, not a plus.  I like my greens, on links courses, hard and difficult to hold.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 12th at Kingsbarns
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2012, 09:23:24 AM »
Now we're talking architecture!  Thanks, Anthony.

I think that the green "accepting" the ball better is a minus, not a plus.  I like my greens, on links courses, hard and difficult to hold.

This was my thought exactly. Also,playing from the medal or back tees the green is unreachable for me in two without a galewind behind me and so the tee shot is less important. 3 wood into the fat of the fairway, 3 wood to 120 yards short of the pin, wedge, two putts making a standard par. Spectacular hole though and I have a lot of time for KB except for 11th and the last (second shot).

Jon