12th at Kingsbarns

[Anthony Gray]

  THe best par 5 in Scotland? What"s better?

  Anthony

[Bill McKinley]

it may be but i would put #14 at TOC as another contender

[Gary Slatter]

I agree that 14 on the Old is a better par 5, however the 12th at KB is the best looking par five (in Fife).

[Andy Shulman]

Love the 12th at KB and it definitely gets the nod for most scenic.  So, does #17 at Carnoustie count as a potential challenger given that the women played it as a par-5 in last summer's Women's British Open?   

Other more serious contenders I'll throw out there include #3 at Prestwick, #15 at Carnoustie and the underrated #8 on the New Course.

[Jon Wiggett]

4th at Boat of Garten and 9th at Muirfield top it for me but it is a really good looking hole.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Each of the three par-5's at Muirfield is better.

And how about the 12th at Askernish?

But, it's generally true that the best holes in Scotland are the par-4's, not the par-5's.  I think that has had some influence on my own designs, consciously or subconsciously.

[Joey Chase]

I don't know if anyone else would consider it a great par 5 but I love the 6th at Cruden Bay as much as anything at Kingsbarns.

[Niall C]

I had to go on the Kingsbarns website (excellent website BTW) to check we were talking about the same hole. In all honesty the other 3 par 5's are better or at least more interesting. Apart from the green site its a rather plain hole somewhat lacking in feature. I've only played 5 or 6 times so perhaps I'm missing something or have a faulty memory but it just seemed to me to be get as far up as you can in two for the approach, no ?

Anthony

How many courses in Scotland have you actually played ?

Andy

Its certainly a nice view but tell me how many courses in Scotland have you actually played to crown it most scenic ?

Niall

[Andy Shulman]

Niall - I've played just 10 courses in Scotland, so I'm OK with adding "...of the courses I've played" to the end of my prior post.  From a strategic standpoint, you make a good point about the goal at #12 being to have the shortest 3rd shot in possible.  Of those I've played, #5 at TOC gets higher marks for strategy, what with having to decide whether to carry the ridge at #5 on the 2nd shot and a 100-yard deep green.

[Marty Bonnar]

Now, I've only walked the course just the three or four
hundred times, but I'd say the 12th isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles.
12 is spectacular, I'll grant you. Fabulous seaology!
But, the third and ninth greensites are WAY better.
Ninth and sixteenth fairways much more interesting.
Still a GREAT golf hole nonetheless. In a good scottish high(?) summer, a good drive over that big mound can make a difference of a hundred yards or so on the drive!
FBD.

[Niall C]

Now, I've only walked the course just the three or four
hundred times, but I'd say the 12th isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles.
12 is spectacular, I'll grant you. Fabulous seaology!
But, the third and ninth greensites are WAY better.
Ninth and sixteenth fairways much more interesting.
Still a GREAT golf hole nonetheless. In a good scottish high(?) summer, a good drive over that big mound can make a difference of a hundred yards or so on the drive!
FBD.

Marty

Played it half a dozen times and never got anywhere near in two. Indeed it was two good hits to make sure I wasn't hitting anything more than an iron for the 3rd. When you were caddying, typically how often did you see anyone get up in two ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall - I've played just 10 courses in Scotland, so I'm OK with adding "...of the courses I've played" to the end of my prior post.  From a strategic standpoint, you make a good point about the goal at #12 being to have the shortest 3rd shot in possible.  Of those I've played, #5 at TOC gets higher marks for strategy, what with having to decide whether to carry the ridge at #5 on the 2nd shot and a 100-yard deep green.

Andy

Apologies for using the "show me your medals" type approach but I have a bit of a bugbear about some of the lesser courses in Scotland getting absolutely no attention. Some people on here still think Brora is a hidden gem for goodness sake.

Re your point about strategy on no 5 TOC, I'm a keen student of the blooter it as far as you can school of golf. Strategy tends to be about the line rather than the distance unless of course you are talking about the approach. A lot of hazards on older Scottish courses tending to be flanking hazards therefore there is generally no good reason not to hit as far as possible other than wanting to retain control of the shot. There are of course exceptions to that style of course.

Niall

[Simon Holt]

I enjoy KB, stress that, I really enjoy KB (cue controversy) but I feel it is a touch overrated.  

The views do wonders for some pretty ordinary holes, while some of the better holes never get mentioned.  When I say overrated it is still one of the best courses in Scotland and the runaway Scottish golf success story of the 21st century. I just dont think it has as good a collection of holes as many of the classics.

12 is stunning but there is not much there for me in terms of strategy.  Hit a drive pretty much anywhere but hard left, hit a second shot anywhere but hard left,  nice green....how many of those holes have you played?  

For my money 17 is the best hole on the course and even though you are hard on the beach you dont really know it is there.  Its the best driving hole on the course and probably the best green site too.  Should have been 18 as that hole is such strange finish.  In fact, 18 should be mentioned in the thread about holes that dont fit the course.

Both par 5s at the Old are better, all the 5s at Muirfield, 11 at North Berwick, 10 at Renaissance, 6 at Carnoustie, 2 at Royal Aberdeen, 17 at Moray Old...... there is also a really cool 5 at Mach Dunes but I was so confused by the hole numbering I forget which one.

In fact 11 at North Berwick is a good example here.  Think of 12 at KB with dunes and bushes all the way down the left.  Remind you of somewhere?  Now put in a few well placed bunkers down the right to make you think about your drive. Now have a cool valley before the green that kicks any short approaches away from the green and gather to a bunker.  Now have a great green that feeds left to right off a dune to a ribbon bunker.  That is a good par 5.

That doesn't make 12 at KB a bad hole, I like it, its just an overrated one in my opinion.

[Andy Shulman]

Niall - I hear you loud and clear, although hitting it as far as you can is the idea on the vast majority of par-5s.  When I planned a group trip to Scotland in '05, I insisted that we play a couple of courses at least somewhat off the beaten path and the group thoroughly enjoyed Lundin Links and par-5 free Elie.  While those are well known courses to the GCA group, they're not to your typical American golfer who wants to play the courses they see on TV during the Open Championship.

Getting back to the par-5 debate, I forgot about #11 at North Berwick - maybe b/c I struggled with it both times I played there - and it's a hole that may get lost among all the other great holes on the back nine.  Lots to think about on that one!

[mike_beene]

Is the green 70 yards long?I remember it being that big but maybe I am wrong.I would put this hole up there along with 14 TOC and 5 Muirfield

[Anthony Gray]

I had to go on the Kingsbarns website (excellent website BTW) to check we were talking about the same hole. In all honesty the other 3 par 5's are better or at least more interesting. Apart from the green site its a rather plain hole somewhat lacking in feature. I've only played 5 or 6 times so perhaps I'm missing something or have a faulty memory but it just seemed to me to be get as far up as you can in two for the approach, no ?

Anthony

How many courses in Scotland have you actually played ?

Andy

Its certainly a nice view but tell me how many courses in Scotland have you actually played to crown it most scenic ?

Niall

  Niall...I've never been to Scotland. I hear the sheep are attractive.

  Anthony

[Ally Mcintosh]

  THe best par 5 in Scotland? What"s better?

  Anthony

The 9th at Kingsbarns

[Anthony Gray]

The green site at the ninth is not near as natural and I like the green better before they softened it. No view either.

[Marty Bonnar]

Now, I've only walked the course just the three or four
hundred times, but I'd say the 12th isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles.
12 is spectacular, I'll grant you. Fabulous seaology!
But, the third and ninth greensites are WAY better.
Ninth and sixteenth fairways much more interesting.
Still a GREAT golf hole nonetheless. In a good scottish high(?) summer, a good drive over that big mound can make a difference of a hundred yards or so on the drive!
FBD.

Marty

Played it half a dozen times and never got anywhere near in two. Indeed it was two good hits to make sure I wasn't hitting anything more than an iron for the 3rd. When you were caddying, typically how often did you see anyone get up in two ?

Niall

Niall,
I've been trying to think back. I can recall only four or maybe five times I saw it reached. Even the Pros at the Dunhill mainly laid up right and made birdie with a good approach leaving themselves an easy putt. They played it at over 600 yds of course! The green is a wee bit sneaky with so many pin positions and that diagonal slope through the middle right. The big area of rough on the bank back right or the wee pot also often caught out the over-confident!
cheers,
MB.

[Anthony Gray]

I saw a three there. One of the grounds crew was watching. When we got back to the clubhouse everyone knew.


  Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

My first reaction when I saw this thread was that it would be the 4th best par 5 at Muirfield.  I see Tom D has already expressed that opinion.

No fans of 9 at NBWL?

[Anthony Gray]

  Is it like 18 at Pebble.

  Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

  Is it like 18 at Pebble.

  Anthony

I'm not familiar with this course, nor do I know where in Scotland it is.  Could you enlighten us?

[Niall C]

I had to go on the Kingsbarns website (excellent website BTW) to check we were talking about the same hole. In all honesty the other 3 par 5's are better or at least more interesting. Apart from the green site its a rather plain hole somewhat lacking in feature. I've only played 5 or 6 times so perhaps I'm missing something or have a faulty memory but it just seemed to me to be get as far up as you can in two for the approach, no ?

Anthony

How many courses in Scotland have you actually played ?

Andy

Its certainly a nice view but tell me how many courses in Scotland have you actually played to crown it most scenic ?

Niall

  Niall...I've never been to Scotland. I hear the sheep are attractive.

  Anthony

Anthony

It was a serious question. I appreciate that you were trying to get a discussion going but as someone who has been over here a number of times I'd be interested to find out how many different courses you've played here and what they were.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  Actually I've played every course I've wanted to play.  I have a good friend who live in Kingsbarns and has family that used to work at the course so I have played it a few more times than you have. For me the atmosphere of the clubhouse has changed for the worse over the years.


  Anthony