[Melvyn Morrow]

Playing golf requires stamina, the ability to navigate around the course, (if playing traditional golf that means walking), so is the intention of pushing the golfer, forcing him to utilise energy part of the designers tools as one gets from say  placing a bunkers, narrow fairways, deep rough etc.

Or is it now so out of date that many modern designers have never considered such actions as hazards? Is that why we see so many 18 Hole days when 36 was the norm. Is there the need for the modern golfer to rest between rounds unlike their predecessors?

Any views either way?

Melvyn
 

[Mac Plumart]

This had to be something that used to be considered...I don't know about anymore.

Who was the architect (ODG) who said you don't want 18 to finish as an uphill hole as the golfer will be tired?

[Carl Rogers]

You can get worn down mentally, too.  A lot of hard holes in a row ...

as well as Wind Rain Cold Heat (I am from the American South) singularly or in combination ...

This part of the difficulty of Bandon, conditions take out on you, ... more so if older.

[Kalen Braley]

Melyvn,

Believe it or not, but based on the golfers I know and have talked to...and I suspect its the same for most on here...

...the vast majority of golfers spend their leisure time and money...neither of which is normally a trivial amount... because they want to do something that is actually fun. While I realize there are some who are masochists, most golfers do not want to be brutalized, humiliated, made to feel like crap, or otherwise down trodden on the golf course.  They don't want it to be a painful slog.  They don't want sprained wrists from hitting out of knee high lush rough. 

They want it to be actually enjoyable, so perhaps they will return and spend more of thier precious time and money on an activity that is fun.  Golf is meant to be a fun activity, not a personal marathon of how long you can endure pain.

Say it 10 times Melyvn, and maybe you might get a smile on your face too

[Adam Clayman]

Melvyn, I've seen this aspect used. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but, due to a climb out of a canyon, after the 15th hole, I viewed it as a tool in the Archie's arsenal. The sad part... the course I recall figuring this aspect out, has changed the config and now that climb is much earlier in the round.

[Mark Pearce]

I wonder if this isn't something that Colt used to practice?  I can think of three courses of his that I know reasonably well with steep climbs late in the round (Rickmansworth, long par 3 16 involves a walk down into a valley and then back up to the green on the other side, Brancepeth Castle, 18th tee shot plays across a ravine, with most drives landing on the upslope and Northumberland, 18th fairway plays across a valley with tee shot landing on upslope and 2nd playing steeply uphill).  Actually, thinking about this, the same is true to an extent of Swinley Forest.

Kalen,

I hate to come across sounding like MHM but golf is a sport.  Yes, it's one most of us play for fun but it is and should be a physical activity.  Being a bit knackered at the end of a round is no bad thing and, frankly, if most of us were as fit as our predecessors, it wouldn't be the problem it might be now for some.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Melvyn,

An interesting question which is closer to the truth than you can imagine. Yes the designer does consider the potential draining of energy, in the sense he tries to AVOID this in his routing. In a golf course in Switzerland I designed some of the terrain had extreme elevation changes with steep falls.

One of the design considerations was how to make the “journey” for the golfer not too physically demanding or extreme. It was obvious that going up and down the same hill more than once is not the answer – so the routing allowed the golfer to descend fairly quickly, giving some exciting shots from elevated tees. However the return journey from the lowest part of the course has a milder ascent traversing the slopes.

The same reasoning would apply to a routing where the walk from the green to tee is as short as possible, in order to AVOID the potential to drain energy.

[Jeff Spittel]

Bethpage Black after sleeping two hours in a car would be the best example in my humble opinion.

[Niall C]

Melvyn

I'm not sure about architects consciously using the physical aspect of losing energy as a tool but I'm pretty sure they are up for wearing the golfer out mentally. Carnoustie was the example I thought of when I read your post. Absolutely love the course and not particularly physical compaered to others but in the half dozen times I've played it, I've yet to get to the last 3 holes in any kind of shape to do myself justice. Tough endings are an architects stock in trade I would have thought.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

To breathe we utilise or need energy, same with walking or playing our shots, so I do not want you to confuse my post in any way with penal or strategic which you seem to have done.

Why are sportsmen encouraged to refrain from sex, stop training a few days before or not allowed late nights dancing and drinking before a big game? It’s all about freshness, having a full tank, conserving ones energy for the task in hand. In this case it’s playing golf.

So my question still stands do modern designers first of all actually understand the concept and do they run with it in anyway?

My own opinion is that many are confusing it with penal, yet that all about facing trap rather than a clever design set to drain the golfer’s energy.

Some over the years have looked at energy or how to conserve it in the belief that golf is all about skill which seems to be affected by lack of energy.  They seem to believe that the sweat of the brow is unhelpful, yet IMHO is the heart of the game. Well not necessary sweating but having warmed up body to perform more effectively without potential harm coming from a cold body not correctly warmed up.

So in designing courses do modern designers consider this side of design or is it a nearly lost science? 

Melvyn

[JESII]

So in designing courses do modern designers consider this side of design or is it a nearly lost science? 

Melvyn

I don't know how, or even if, it's used by todays architects but perhaps you could tell me how you think it was used in the old days.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

I will but not until I see some more comments.

Melvyn

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have all the old golf design books.  Can someone cite a passage where any gca has considered this factor?  It could be, but I simply don't recall it.

[Jackson C]

Playing golf requires stamina, the ability to navigate around the course, (if playing traditional golf that means walking), so is the intention of pushing the golfer, forcing him to utilise energy part of the designers tools as one gets from say  placing a bunkers, narrow fairways, deep rough etc.

Or is it now so out of date that many modern designers have never considered such actions as hazards? Is that why we see so many 18 Hole days when 36 was the norm. Is there the need for the modern golfer to rest between rounds unlike their predecessors?

Any views either way?

Melvyn
 

For me, your question brings to mind the Casey Martin case.
He was the young professional on the PGA tour that because of physical handicaps had a difficult time walking the entire course for an entire round/tournament.
If I recall correctly, Mr. Nicklaus testified in that case in support of the point that walking was an integral part of the game -- that physical as well as mental stamina was purposefully tested.

[Kalen Braley]

Very interesting bit on the whole thing...10 years later.

To this day, I'm still unsure what my viewpoint is...just like back then.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6561119

[Melvyn Morrow]

Carts are aids they help a player by keeping him fresher than the walker - not an equal or a level playing field - so as an aid it’s should be illegal apart from pleasure round for those who need it for mobility.

If you can't walk, blame a Higher Power for a crap deal; don't try a using aid to get an unfair advantage.

Melvyn

[David_Tepper]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who is in even halfway decent physical condition should find walking 4 miles or so on a golf course over a 4 hour period taxing in any meaningful way. 

I have seen many golf courses where the clubhouse, the 1st tee and the 18th green are sited on the highest part of the property (such as Riviera and the Olympic Lake). This does often require the last 2 or 3 holes to be played uphill to return to the clubhouse. My guess is that is a result of a choice by the GCA (and the owners of the course) to optimize the views from the clubhouse rather than a conscious choice to make the last few holes of the course more physically taxing for the golfers.   

Once again, this notion of golfers taking carts as "cheating" is rather silly. There is golf and there is tournament golf. The rules of tournament golf are set by the committee running the event. The committee either chooses to allow carts or not and each competitor can decide whether walking or riding is a benefit to his game.

If a foursome goes out on a Saturday morning, riding in carts and playing their usual match within their foursome, who is being cheated? No one! In private matches, which is how 99% of all golf is played, the competitors can agree or not that riding is OK. They can also agree whether a mulligan on the 1st tee is OK or whether or not "bumping" the balls in the fairway is OK. Personally, I have never felt I have been cheated by playing against someone riding in a cart while I am walking.     

[JESII]

I'd bet that when I am playing a reasonable amount of golf I'm two or three shots better when I walk as opposed to riding.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

One might this something like this if they played Painswick every day. I think the game of golf test all aspects of a person including his stamina. I do not find this to be an active part of the architecture. Please let some of our architects comment if true and to what extent this is in the thought process. My guess is little to none. This is meant to come out over a 72 hole event.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

I have a recollection that a couple of years ago Lee Westwood was wired up with a GPS tracker for a tournament round, which showed that he walked a total of 13 miles.  Not a marathon, by any means but rather more than the 4 you estimated, particularly if that round is in the heat and humidity, say, of the Eastern states in June.

[James Boon]

Melvyn,

I also don't ever recall reading of an architect using the potential of draining a golfers energy as part of their design philosophy.

I know Colt wasnt a big fan of lots of blind shots, but he was fine with some, so the occasional walkiing up a hill or over a dune was naturally part of this. So if guys like Colt or other designers of that era were making changes to an older existing course that had plenty of blind shots up and over hills and dunes, maybe it was the guys that came before them, who as far as I know didn't write too many books on the subject, that utilised the energy sapping nature of hills and dunes? Afterall, I suspect golfers of the pre golden age era probably considered golf as more of an adventure than a way of taking up their "leisure time" 

I like the idea of it in principle as I agree that golf is as much a sport as for the enjoyment. A enjoy a game of 5 aside (occasionally) these days, but I enjoy it a lot more when I'm fitter.

I also think that while I like the idea, I'm more likely to appreciate the challenge of a course that drains my energy, rather than falling in love with it and thinking its fun. But then Painswick and Cavendish are two of my favourites and great fun, but nobody would ever say they were flat courses! 

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

Niall

To breathe we utilise or need energy, same with walking or playing our shots, so I do not want you to confuse my post in any way with penal or strategic which you seem to have done.


Melvyn

Melvyn

I didn't confuse the two at all. I merely made the distinction between physical and mental. But you shouldn't underestimate the fact that mental fatigue makes us make as many errors as physical fatigue. As Jeff suggests, I doubt that gca's have ever tried to exhaust players by utilising the nature of the terrain in some way other than I suppose by adding length to the holes. Indeed the kind of steep inclines is something I imagine they would look to avoid unless the land dictated that they had to do it.

Niall

[Matt MacIver]

I'm guessing since ODG archies had great land and little earth-moving equipment they had to route some holes ove hill and dale, thus making for some long and tough walks (and more interesting holes!) but I wonder if even a small part of their reasoning was to physically tire a player out.  Mentally, yes; and that does sap some energy. 

I've seen pictures of prior generations playing the game in coats and ties, so I don't think the game started out as one that the participant was supposed to get all lathered up, but rather a thinking/strategy/execution game: a gentleman's game. 

Off-topic, but growing up and before I played golf I used to think that if you don't sweat it's not a sport.  Now that I play, I don't think that anymore....and I sweat a lot when I play!  Tiger and hit fitness regime has also re-defined the notion and how fit a pro golfer needs to be.  I don't see ANY architect out-witting him physically!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

My thread asked a question.

As for mental fatigue I totally agree but usually that is actually more associated with the onset of physical fatigue first, but not necessary on every occasion.

As for the use of energy, I was seeking a more subtle way of milking the golfer’s energy, not necessary by falling back on to mountains, hills & climbing Holes. The usage of the design to force the player to thread his way through a course, which was far more applicable with the limited travel of say the gutty. Today we eliminate many ground hazards by utilising technology in ball and clubs to fly over the course with lengths circa 300yds plus rendering much of the course redundant except for the duffers.

But then perhaps subtle went out with the baby and bathwater when easy became the unspoken word in design.

Energy is a factor that seems to be ignored these days – be it because of the long aerial game or the unwillingness by designers/owners (and even the governing body) to pull this part of the game back to make our courses far more of a challenge (and less expensive). However by introducing the cart we automatically open the doors to saving energy which some believe allows more chance for the development of skill.

Skill in my book comes from a natural talent or more normally from honest repetitive hard work (perhaps aided by a little natural talent). It does not come from robbing part of the game to save energy in the hope of concentrating on developing skill. I thought that at the heart of skill is the commitment to playing the game, not just the bits you like and discarding as irrelevant those that you do not.

Did earlier golfers actually make it their business to force the golfer to navigate a course, you bet they did, one way was the later placement of fairway bunkers months after the course opened to forcing the play to recalculate their shots, the inclusion of walls, turf dykes, mounds etc., none for climbing but a deterrent for the easy straight shot, as in sailing when tacking. Subtle both in mind and body. However the aerial game has put pay to that, alas IMHO not through skill but the ability to hit a long ball which I believe is not down to skill.

I sometimes wonder why we seem to dismiss the intelligence of past generations. Perhaps it may be down to our own generation’s inability to believe that in some ways our predecessors may have known better because they took the time to fully understand what they were doing.

Melvyn

[C. Squier]

Melvyn, will you just get to your eventual point that riding in golf carts is not truly "golf" and should be shunned by any true golfer. 

It would save those who don't know your dog and pony show the effort of typing answers to your thinnly veiled shot at golfers who play below your highly held standards. 

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