Great, cheap and empty.

[Jim Colton]

Michael,

  There were other national destination clubs mentioned earlier in the thread. I only mentioned Ballyneal because the Golf Digest article mentioned significantly lower pricing under the new plan, probably in line with the other clubs mentioned here. I honestly wasn't using it for promotion, otherwise I would've stuck a [warning: blatant membership promotion] at the beginning of my post. My only affiliation with the club is with the entity that is going up in smoke on March 7th. I don't know enough about the new entity to recommend that my closest friends join, much less a group of 1500 relative strangers.

[Sven Nilsen]

The problem to me is how "great" is defined.  Does a course have to be top 100 to be great?  There's a universe of courses (mostly public and municipal) that will never be considered for a top 100 ranking because (a) they were never designed to be run with the maintenance meld that appeals to the raters or (b) the design budget was a bit lower than you'd find at a course built to appeal to a membership drive.  That does not mean they are not great (in either design or in the playing experience).  Some of the best design work out there was done on a shoe-string budget.

I consider courses like Wild Horse, Greywalls, Bayside, Rustic Canyon, Wine Valley, Rochelle Ranch, Vista Verde, Apache Stronghold, We-Ko-Pa, Talking Stick North, CommonGround, the New Mexico loop, Lawsonia and a slew of midwestern tracks like Mystic Hills, Highlands of Elgin, the Warren Course, Angel's Crossing and Shepherd's Crook to be great.  All of these courses have designs that have merit.  The Notable Public Access list (found here:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42908.0.html) is full of similar options.

A lot of these courses will never be empty.  They're to close to golf starved metropolitan areas.  But there's a group that fall into the remote category.  Generally, these courses are not crowded.  To me, that is the definition of empty.  If I can walk up to the desk, pay, head to the first tee and play 18 holes without waiting, the course is empty.

The remote courses are generally cheap.  My barrier for what is cheap might be a little higher than Sean Arble's, but there are a number of courses that would meet his standard.  There are even some bargains to be found closer to some of the big cities.  Generally these are municipal courses that have a bit of public money backing the enterprise.  Some of these are never empty, some are.  The course I play the most in Chicago is a course that meets my definition of empty.  Unless there's an outing, I've never had a problem getting out and rarely bump into other players on the course.

I brought up Rochelle Ranch earlier in the thread, a course some on here may be familiar with.  If you ever drive through Wyoming, make the stop.  Its a great, fun course.  Its cheap as dirt.  I don't think you'll have a problem getting a tee time.  Just one example.

[Jud_T]

Spring Valley Country Club- Salem, WI.  Langford & Moreau. $18 to walk.  Tee sheet rarely ever full.

[Sven Nilsen]

Great, cheap, and empty...Askernish, Dismal River, Sand Hills (frankly, I don't know if this one is cheap...but I think it is reasonable).

Great and empty...Ballyneal, NGLA (frankly, this one may be cheap...I don't know), Renaissance, Rock Creek.

Mac:

How cheap is Dismal for a guest?  From Jay Flemma's analysis, it sounds like its a bit more than I'd pay for a round at my local.  Is it on par with Sand Hills, Ballyneal, etc?

When discussing private courses, I think it makes sense to look at it from both the member and the guest perspective.  As Chris has pointed out, clubs like Dismal and Ballyneal rely on guest play for their livelihood in addition to the membership contribution.

There's also a contingency of folks that might not have the means to take on the constraints of membership, but could swing a trip or two to a club like this to get the member for a weekend treatment.  To exclude them from any analysis does the conversation a disservice.

[Edited to note that I understand Jay may have played and payed under the old regime.  I'd still be interested in hearing what the rack rate is for a guest under the new structure.]

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jim -  You said IYO Ballyneal was cheap, now you mention under the ownership of a significantly lower price. How  will you define the significant lower price in relation to the previous cheap price.
You are confusing cheap and value. I think you believe Ballyneal to be great value rather than cheap.

None of this is a slur on Ballyneal and its true classification is probably, Great, Expensive and Empty.

[Sven Nilsen]

Spring Valley Country Club- Salem, WI.  Langford Moreau. $18 to walk.  Tee sheet rarely ever full.

Not on Fish Fry Fridays, you can't even get in the parking lot.

[Kalen Braley]

My one day at Ballyneal, where I played as an unaccompanied guest, was easily in the top 5 of my "most expensive green fees" paid category.

Maybe from a member level its cheap....

[ChipOat]

A quick read through the posts leads me to think that Wine Valley is the only one that qualifies AND doesn't cost $$$ to get there.

Now, if you're going to be in Scotland, anyway or you allocate 100% of your travel costs to Dornoch, TOC, et al, I've got to believe that some of the "off the beaten track" links qualify (e.g. Machrie?).  Jim Finnegan's books must have scooped them out.

Some of the ultra-exclusive older private clubs (e.g. ANGC, NGLA, Seminole, Shinnecock, CPC) are, in fact, relatively inexpensive for those fortunate enough to be members although, for obvious reasons, their guest fees reflect the quality of the course and the high demand to play there.  PVGC and Oakmont both fit the G & C, but they are definitely not empty.  Also, during the "season" (which is pretty short), I'm not sure I would call Seminole, SHGC or NGLA "empty" either.

[Jim Colton]

Jim -  You said IYO Ballyneal was cheap, now you mention under the ownership of a significantly lower price. How  will you define the significant lower price in relation to the previous cheap price.
You are confusing cheap and value. I think you believe Ballyneal to be great value rather than cheap.

None of this is a slur on Ballyneal and its true classification is probably, Great, Expensive and Empty.

I was referring to the new regime instead of the old. That was clear in my original post.

"Ballyneal will likely qualify for all three in 2012, depending on your definition of cheap."

I'm not sure why we are beating this dead horse. I qualified my statement, and it's clear we differ on the second half of the equation. Other private destination clubs were mentioned in the thread, although by your definition of cheap they are probably all bad examples.

The old Ballyneal definitely was not cheap, but I did get great value of it, not only in rounds played but other ways as well. Of course, I'm not a normal member (in many senses of the word), as I played 40+ rounds there a year and 8 1/2 in one day.

[Chris Johnston]

Great, cheap, and empty...Askernish, Dismal River, Sand Hills (frankly, I don't know if this one is cheap...but I think it is reasonable).

Great and empty...Ballyneal, NGLA (frankly, this one may be cheap...I don't know), Renaissance, Rock Creek.

Mac:

How cheap is Dismal for a guest?  From Jay Flemma's analysis, it sounds like its a bit more than I'd pay for a round at my local.  Is it on par with Sand Hills, Ballyneal, etc?

When discussing private courses, I think it makes sense to look at it from both the member and the guest perspective.  As Chris has pointed out, clubs like Dismal and Ballyneal rely on guest play for their livelihood in addition to the membership contribution.

There's also a contingency of folks that might not have the means to take on the constraints of membership, but could swing a trip or two to a club like this to get the member for a weekend treatment.  To exclude them from any analysis does the conversation a disservice.

[Edited to note that I understand Jay may have played and payed under the old regime.  I'd still be interested in hearing what the rack rate is for a guest under the new structure.]

Sven:

I have no desire for well intentioned contributions to cause any ruckus.  There is no benefit to me personally in a ruckus so I'll let others stir their own pots.  Same with what Jim posted, even though some have mentioned promotion.  If Ballyneal is becoming less expensive, that is newsworthy and a good move in my view.  Was it promotion? who cares.  Jim doesn't even need to explain.

I can't really answer your question without detail and context, and some surely will object.  It's just how I write and explain things.  If you read my previous contributions, all of the information has been shared.

I'm very happy when people have fun.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jim, apologies yes you did mean mean Balyneal WILL be cheap soon rather than before.

That aside I dont think Ballyneal needs to be cheap. A $200 green fee would be fine. I still maintain the definition of all three dont go hand in hand. From an Operators point of view I like PB, Great, Expensive and Busy.

[John Kavanaugh]

[Edited to note that I understand Jay may have played and payed under the old regime.  I'd still be interested in hearing what the rack rate is for a guest under the new structure.]

Sven,

Here is a clear indication and open invite for what the "rack rate" is at Dismal. http://5thmajor.com/

I know that when I take guests we just divide the final bill by the number of people.  I got your rack rate...

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

Appreciate the feedback.  $500 for three days of golf and lodging is a steal (I'm assuming meals are extra).  Those are Barnbougle prices, if not cheaper.

Does that number reflect the normal rates or is it particular to Eric's event?

Chris:

Not looking to stir the pot here.  Just looking for clarification.  When someone makes the claim that a private course is cheap, I want to know if its cheap for the members, the guests or both.  In light of Jay's highly disputed comments on the other thread, it made sense to me to ask.

[Michael George]

Count me as one that does not mind information from insiders at clubs, even if it comes across as self promotion. 

Jim, thanks for the information on Ballyneal.  I have no problem with your post, just the ones that followed that seem to dwell in the problems there. 

Likewise, CJ and John K, keep the updates from Dismal coming.  I really enjoy your posts and updates on Doak Dismal.

If we restricted insiders from providing news and information about their clubs, you would be left only with my stuipd posts, which does not make a very good website.

[Chris Johnston]

Michael

Just got back from Dismal late yesterday.  It has been a very dry and windy winter and all in the neighborhood are uncomfortable.  We have already begun watering greens.

The Doak looks great, some minor and customary drainage issues are apparent but are very small and easy to fix at the outset..  A blessing to know them now.  The 6 greens and surrounds are in good shape and Brian Slawnik's idea to close mow the course was pure genius.  You can see every fairway (as if the fescue was dormant) and the course really jumps out.  Tons of deer, cows and a porcupine, or two.  If we get some moisture and she greens up, I think it will look like a course before it becomes one.  Dirt golf will be a hoot!

Sven, I wasn't pointing towards you, my friend.  I'll just say I'm glad it nighttime in Austrailia.   Hard to answer the way and in the dept I want to when folks are gunnin for ya for no good reason.  IM me and I'd be happy to share the information you are looking for.  Posting it here would be taken the wrong way by some.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why is everyone so angry?  Golf has never been greater, cheaper or emptier.

[jeffwarne]

Why is everyone so angry?  Golf has never been greater, cheaper or emptier.

Deltona qualifirs on all three counts
Played our second 18 (2 threesomes)in three hours 15 minutes

[Jason Hines]

http://www.nebgolf.org/clubdirectory.html

[Jeff Shelman]

I look at this the way our project manager at work talks about printing: Great, cheap or fast, pick two

In the overwhelming majority of cases golf can be two of the three of great, cheap and empty.

[Tim Nugent]

You want Great, Cheap and Empty, look for poor conditions. Iand even then cheap may outweigh) or something very remote (but then, the "cost" must include evert dollar spent  from the moment you leave your house until you return - then free can become expensive).  It's hard to equate private and public because the fee structure at many private clubs are, well, private! And how do you figure cost?  Annual expense + pro-rated innitiation fee divided by number of rounds played? A course like Shore Acres, Great, yes, empty? ,10,000 rnds per yr, cheap? if you play alot - probably, if you play 3 times a yr - no.  Of course a very restrictive membership criteria keeps it that way.
Of course there re always exeptions, some based on time of yr.  Like Blackwolf Run in the fall, some Phx area courses in July etc.
For me, I'll take a rather good, relatively inexpensive and not impossible to get on course like Sandy Pines in DeMotte, Indiana.
Of course, you can always find GC&E at High Pointe, conditions may be on the rough side tho.

[Chris Wirthwein]

John - Bear Slide (Cicero Ind., Dean Refram design) was great, cheap and empty for a year or so after it opened as a private club 15+ years ago -- before going bankrupt. It's cheap, fairly heavily played, much softened, and so-so maintained now -- and not so great. Still good, but it was once a real beauty.

[Adam Clayman]

You want Great, Cheap and Empty, look for poor conditions. Iand even then cheap may outweigh) or something very remote (but then, the "cost" must include evert dollar spent  from the moment you leave your house until you return - then free can become expensive).  It's hard to equate private and public because the fee structure at many private clubs are, well, private! And how do you figure cost?  Annual expense + pro-rated innitiation fee divided by number of rounds played? A course like Shore Acres, Great, yes, empty? ,10,000 rnds per yr, cheap? if you play alot - probably, if you play 3 times a yr - no.  Of course a very restrictive membership criteria keeps it that way.
Of course there re always exeptions, some based on time of yr.  Like Blackwolf Run in the fall, some Phx area courses in July etc.
For me, I'll take a rather good, relatively inexpensive and not impossible to get on course like Sandy Pines in DeMotte, Indiana.
Of course, you can always find GC&E at High Pointe, conditions may be on the rough side tho.

Is that the course you over saw every aspect, down to the Grow-in, in person, by yourself?

[Tim Nugent]

Oh no, it's been there for a long time. I just help out the owner with design ideas and work with the course super Cary Jeffers, a true jack of all trades - he does all the heavy lifting. I just think it is a really cool place that was once a goat track that got lucky to get a passionate owner who is more interested in making the course all it can be.
Here's a slideshow of a new hole we did there.  It starts with shots from the green/approach area.
The middle section was a piece of derelict landfill that needed to be capped +40'.
http://vimeo.com/18571710  That's Cary on the trencher, he also put the slideshow together.

More info at http://www.sandypinesgc.com/

This is my definiition of CHEAP!

2011 Fall Green Fees
*Starting October 1st*

Weekdays (Mon.-Fri.)
   Weekends and Holidays
 
    (carts required Saturday & Sundy until 12:00pm) 
Ride 18 $35.00   Ride 18 $46.00
Ride 9 $20.00   Ride 9 $27.00
Walk 18 $22.00   Walk 18 $29.00
Walk 9 $12.00   Walk 9 $16.00

 
Jr. Walk 18 $20.00   Jr. Walk 18 $20.00
Jr. Walk 9 $10.00   Jr. Walk 9 $10.00
* Jr. would be individuals who are under 21 years of age
         
Twilight Rate 18
(After 12:00 - With Cart) $30.00   Twilight Rate 18
(After 12:00 - With Cart) $35.00
         
Replay Rate 18:  $20.00   Replay Rate 18:  $20.00
Replay Rate 9:  $10.00   Replay Rate 9:  $10.00

Specials!

  Senior Special  $30.00
    Tue.- Fri. - 18 holes (With Cart)   
  * Seniors would be individuals who are age 60 or better   
     
  Monday Special
   
    18 holes (With Cart)
Rate applies for All Age Groups $25.00
       
  Thursday Special   
    18 Holes (4 players -With Cart)
Must have 4 for this price
 $100.00
       
  Weekend Special   
    18 Holes (4 players -With Cart)
Must have 4 for this price
 $160.00
  Weekend Twilight Special   
    18 Holes (4 players -With Cart)
Must have 4 for this price $130.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Scott Weersing]

I was reading through this thread and remembered that La Purisima GC in Lompoc, CA fits into this category of great, cheap, and empty.

The course is great because of the routing, variety of holes and the designs of the greens. It is cheap if you join the players club for $199 a year because then the rounds are $40 or so. http://www.lapurisimagolf.com/memberships

Empty because it is remote and because it is too hard a course for beginners. Another reason it is cheap is because the course does not have debt from renovations and gets enough play year round. I remember the snow birds coming down from Canada to stay and play for a month.

I also think that if the course is great and cheap then it will be popular and crowded. For example, Rustic Canyon.

If a course is great and empty, then it usually too expensive or there is a great and cheap course that is more popular. Some areas can't support two great courses with just locals.

 I imagine that Bandon Crossings is another course that is great, cheap and empty. The reason the course is empty even though it is great and cheap is because the Bandon Dunes resort is nearby.

[Tim Gavrich]

Shennecossett and Fenwick, in the winter months.

Copake!