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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« on: January 26, 2012, 07:28:56 AM »
I've been doing a little reading about this grass seeing its the new fairway grass at Bonnie Doon.

I have read a few mentions of it being a finer leaf than many other couch/bermuda varieties and I'm curious how much difference in playability that provides?

What other features of this variety are noteworthy?

What makes it a choice option for a warm, moderately humid year-round climate?

I'm interested to know of other courses (particularly in Australia) where it is used and where I might be able to get a look at how it plays (especially in a mature state).

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 10:42:45 AM »
Scott:

I have never seen the specific cultivar of bermuda you're asking about.  I'm sure it's great.

However, as someone who knows just enough about turf to be dangerous ... I believe that most such conversations are entirely overrated.  There are lots of very good cultivars available of bermudagrass and bentgrass.  I would not hesitate to use any of them, with a handful of exceptions.  But, 75% of what you hear about them is sales hype.  And, even a higher percentage of golfers could not distinguish one from another.

Which one will really be optimal for a given site depends on a lot of factors ... no new cultivar is really best suited to all locations.  And I'm just a little wary of any brand new cultivar, because past experience dictates that if anyone had ever come up with a grass that was really perfect, then we wouldn't keep needing new ones.  It's just a matter of time before we figure out the [slight] weaknesses of any new type.


Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »
Scott,

I think some of the back nine fairways at Metro are Windsor Green - but it seems indistinguishable from the santa- ana.

Ian Andrew

Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 04:07:08 PM »
I think some of the back nine fairways at Metro are Windsor Green - but it seems indistinguishable from the santa- ana.

I was doing a little reading about turf hiistory in Australia this week and was facinated by the drought tollerence of couch. The more I read about Santa ana the more I wished we had a cool grass version to use. Low fertility, drought resistance, even the disease and pest risks seemed limited ... if only we had such an alternative

..... it makes you understand why people still experiement with Velvet Bent.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 04:20:19 PM »
Santa ana was used quite a bit in the south west US for athletic fields, but fell out of favor because 419 was considered to have finer texture and a brighter green color.

My experience with bermuda is its a whole lot more about how you manage it vs which variety you use.

I'll bet anyone here that if you give me a year to prep, I could plant and maintain a seeded variety, and a sterile hybrid type like 419 or tif sport side by side and you couldn't pick one from the other (tony n is not allowed to participate).

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 07:26:33 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.

I'm starting from as low a base of knowledge as there is, so I'll save the really dumb questions for Google.

How does a grass like Windsor Green compare to Legend in so much as bouncing/rolling approaches and recoveries? Am I right to assume that a finer leaf couch if maintained firm and cut short will give more options that you would expect from fescue than a broader leaf couch/bermuda?

What characterises a semi-dwarf couch/bermuda from non dwarf varieties?

Mike C, weren't stolons from the old 14th fairway at BD cultivated for planting on the new work? Is the couch in that back paddock Windsor Green?

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 02:33:17 AM »
Scott

my club (Blackwood) put in windsor couch on 5 holes in 1992.   The windsor green stock came across the nullabor from Perth.  We also have Santa Ana on the rest, put in in 1999.

There are significant differences and growth behaviours.  It is an interesting choice.  I suspect it will stay greener in winter than Santa Ana, but it does need different maintenance.

Happy to show you if you are in Adelaide.  We are reciprocal you know.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Brett Morris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 02:49:24 PM »
Scott,

Lakelands on the Gold Coast is Windsor Green, as well as Kennedy Bay, so two different climatic conditions for you to observe the grass.  It is an irradiated mutant like TifEagle which provides some genetic stability.  From what I have seen however it can be more susceptible to spring dead spot and patch diseases compared to other green couch surfaces.  We used to have to deal with that at Kennedy Bay in spring.  On all that sand at BD it may be an issue particularly if it gets dry over winter.  David is a very good Super however.  We're reciprocal as well so I look forward to getting there when finished.

Brett.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Windsor Green couch/bermuda
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 04:27:30 PM »
Scott

some other points on Windsorgreen, from my observations last weekend.

Firstly, remember that my comments are from a hills course with heavy clay soils, trees and shade in parts (not as treed on the parts where windsorgreen is used) and on a location with similar weather to the Dandenongs in Melbourne - 5 degrees cooler than Adelaide with wetter winters but still with summer drought.  These conditions are quite different to those at Bonnie Doon, although I understand there will be a mixture of sand and heavy soils (new holes).  Obviously, Sydney weather is completly different to delaide, especially through summer so YMMV.

Windsorgreen has a much finer leaf compared to Santa Ana.  It also has more horizontal growth, and in particular less vertical growth.  I can't imagine windsorgreen being used in the rough - I can only imagine a ball sitting up on a bit of thick beard.  One benefit of windsor's growth style is less frequent mowing is required.

Windsorgreen stays green-ish in winter for longer than Santa Ana, but isn't as deep a green in summer.

Windsorgreen will appear dormant because of its horizontal growth, and can thatch up if inputs (fertiliser and water) are increased in an attempt to see visible, vertical growth.  However, it rpovides a sound surface.

Over time, the grass needs scarifying.  Our windsor was some 12 years old before getting a good hit, and the roots were literally living in thatch.  The grass had gone to a lighter straw colour.  A harsh scarify and the colour returned, and the grass gave up divots just like a golf turf should.  If you don't see any grains of soil in a divot, then it is time for some scarifying.

Windsor doesn't like shade, and in particular doesn't like the lower soil temperatures associated with winter shade.  No couches do, but windsor certainly exhibits this characteristic.  It also struggles on the edge of input areas - the grass will be quite weak if there is no irrigation and no rainfall.  That might make it easier to manage if you are trying to prevent it from growing into some areas, eg sandy wastes.  Less water = less grass.

We haven't used windsor around the greens, but I expect it would be fine there.  We have used winsor on tees, sometimes oversown with a bent.  It provides a good teeing surface for holes where a driver/3 wood is used, especially given the limited vertical growth.  However, if the tee is shaded, the tee won't be healthy.

Thats the main points for me Scott.  Good luck.  If you can, get the right course supt's to chat together.  Climate, soil and shade will make a big difference.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)