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Dennis_Harwood

Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« on: December 21, 2001, 05:16:47 PM »
I had the opportunity to play Fazio's new SoCal (in Irvine)course yesterday--And came away very impressed--

It will not be open for play until Jan, and then only to a very exclusive membership(mostly those buying property in the development--so far a lot of  $2mil  and some up to $5--$10,000,000 homes are under construction) however I got the opportunity because I was part of the SCGA/USGA rating team--

It will clearly be a difficult course and is designed as a test of golf for the good golfer--it got a very high slope(its very different from Pelican or Oak Creek which are designed as resort or daily fee courses)--

Although part of a RE development, no homesites are even close to the course-- For those who have played The Preserve(Fazio course in NorCal) both the ground and the feel are very similar--

Even though its a month from opening, its conditioning and mature tree that are natural to the area makes it appear that the course has been there 20 years--

It will clearly be recognized as one of the best in area --
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2001, 05:23:20 PM »
Dennis:

Can you post max yardage from the tips ... course rating and slope from those markers?

Many thanks ...

P.S. Is the course overly shaped per TF's other courses? I'm guessing you have played other TF courses. You allude to The Preserve -- have you played it to make such a comparison? :)

Do you believe the course can crack into SoCal's top ten listing???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dennis_Harwood

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2001, 05:56:22 PM »
Matt-- From the Blacks--7010, From the Golds--6508, From the Blues-- 6013(Whites and Greens are less than 5900)--

Ratings are not in(figures fed into computer)-- My guess is that close to 74/144 from the blacks; 73/139 from the Golds--PAR IS 71!

Forced carries from many tees and bunkers/heavy rough near green complexs will create a high slope--

I have played The Preserve(and an number of other TF courses), and yes I think its easy a top ten in SoCal based on first impressions-- It doesn't look like much more shaping than The Preserve, with a couple of exceptions--

Yardage is a bit deceiving since, from the Golds, some par fours are short yardage -- 359,338,343,334(mostly uphill)--On the other hand it has{the tips yardages in ()} 414(436),423(457),421(448),442(477 and its into the wind) and 450(474--also into the wind) par fours--And a couple of those involve forced carries from the Blacks of over 235 yds and from the Golds of over 220--

Par fives from the tips are 595(up hill), 568, 548 and 555--

Par threes are 212, 175, 174, 235(forced carry of over 200) and 192
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A Clay Man

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2001, 05:59:42 PM »
Dennis- Other than the difficulty what was it that you liked? And if you know,
 How recent did the construction finish?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2001, 06:21:17 PM »
Dennis:

Thanks for the info.

A few more questions.

Is the course walkable -- by that I mean even if carts are mandated are the rides between holes relatively short ones or do you need a compass?

Second, can you list your top ten in SoCal to give me an idea where Shady Canyon fits?

Third, does the course have any finesse holes from the tips or is more of a brawny brute???

Finally, the green sites. How are they shaped / contoured? Is it different than the usual TF style???

I plan on being in the immediate LA area right after the New Year and will be planning a visit to the site based on the info you can provide. Thanks again ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed getka

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2001, 07:26:12 PM »
Dennis,
  I have played the Preserve a couple of times. At Shady Canyon how many green surfaces are blind coming in with your approach? There were a number of approaches like that at the Preserve which I didn't care for. The par 3's at the Preserve were fairly non-descript other than #14. How are the par 3's at Shady Canyon? What club did you hit into each (ie is there a variety?). Sounds like you enjoyed the course, although I am hard-pressed to imagine the setting in Irvine being as sublime as the Preserves. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim Dirksma

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2001, 08:31:31 PM »
Dennis:

If Shady Canyon doesn't have more strategy and shot values than The Preserve, then it's not very good.  Does Shady Canyon have variety with the green complexes, interest and options off the tee, preferred angles to come in from the landing areas, etc.  

The setting at Shady Canyon sounds wonderful, but so is the setting The Preserve.  But, at The Preserve, I'm really sorry to say, Tom Fazio flat-ass mailed it in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2001, 08:58:51 PM »
Dennis
I think Matt asks the million dollar question is the course overly shaped. From my limited experience that seems to be his achelles heel. Fazio has a lot of talent but sometimes he seems to over use it. How would you describe the routing, is the course walkable?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dennis_Harwood

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2001, 10:48:10 PM »
Lots of questions--

First, there is no restriction on walking, but I doubt that anyone in his right mind would attempt the feat-- I did not realize the elevation changes that take place less than 5 minutes from my home, but they are there--A definite minus--

The par fives are, in my opinion, exceptional--They each have different lines of play and each shot makes you think--For example the drive on 11 is very similar to the drive on two at Cypress-9 is a great par five that creates great strategy on whether or not to cross the creek on the second or third shot and depending on that decision, you will have an entirely different apprach shot-

Something that Fazio has not done often is he creates a squeeze effect with his bunkering on drives and second shots on the par 5s, but strangely does not do that on his par 4s--His bunkering on par fours is often to suggest a line of play, rather than creating hazards in the driving areas--

Where he creates problems in the driving areas it is the use of creeks(which are ESA and played as WHs) and the creek must be crossed several times, in addition to acting as a LWH on some other holes-- Only the creek on #1 appears to be imported, all other water hazards are natural.  

The fairways, although often wide, are bordered by extremely heavy meadow grasses, rock formations(natural rocks, Tommy) or creek beds--

This area adjoins the Laguna Green Belt area, a huge natural area, and during play  I saw in the bunkers bobcat tracks, deer tracks and mountain lion tracks--

The par threes are varied--3 are downhill, one is level and one is uphill, bowever each plays in a different direction to the prevailing wind, so variety does exist--

The weakest area appears to be the short par fours-- 3 of the short holes are very similar with a short blind shot to a hidden uphill green-- most of the other greens are visable on your approach--

Fazio has done some things with the greens I have not seen him do  before--some are "over the top" contured-- and a few have large false fronts-- The grass is A4 and we stemped it at 12--I know they will slow down some when the greens mature, but the severiety of some of the slopes make large percentages of some of the greens unusable for hole locations--Many of the greens have tiers, and it is important to get on the "proper" tier, or else 3 putts are likely-- Many of the hole will change radically depending on where the hole is located, hence it will be important to know hole locations before driving on some holes--

One concern I have had with TF courses is they "lack depth"--First impressions are great, but after a couple of plays the "mystery" is gone and the line of play becomes clear and the hazards are more visual than real (kind of like a first date with an apparently beautiful, intelligent woman--Only on the second date she wears the same outfit and says the same thing--the charm is diminished)-- It doesn't seem that this course has that problem, ie there really seems to be rewards if you take the risks, and there may be various ways to play most holes that are not apparent on the first play--but time will tell--

As to ranking, that is almost impossible with one play--
Its certainly behind LA North, Riveria, The Valley Club, Rancho Santa Fe, probably behind Bel-Air, maybe behind Sherwood, but in the mix of San Diego CC, Wilshire and Torry South(which I am including based on what I believe the revised course will look like)--Its likely ahead of the other Or CO courses(Coto, Dove), the new inland courses and certainly his desert courses(The Quarry and Vintage){I am excluding from ranking my home course, Big Canyon, which I would probably rate higher than most of you}

I don't know when it was completed, but the rumor is that it could have been opened last spring, but was delayed almost a year to coincide with some of the residential completions--

As noted, its intended that play will be extrememly restricted(play with a member as his guest or don't play)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed getka

Re: Shady Canyon--New Fazio SoCal Course
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2001, 07:02:59 AM »
Dennis,
 Thanks for your responses. I haven't played many Fazio courses, but you touched on what I have found lacking in what I've seen so far. The courses I have seen are visually appealing, but not very satisfying to play. He generally has a few outstanding holes, but then I generally I find a stretch of holes that I couldn't recall without a routing map. Fazio definitely knows how to "frame" holes but somehow drops the ball with strategic interest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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